Final Fantasy
- Thread starter Caldwin
- Start date
So I'd like to discuss this because it hugely impacts probably my biggest favorite character introduced in Endwalker.
Did Metieon do anything wrong?
Well now, let's be honest. Yes! Whether by her hand alone or by her hand along with her sisters, many worlds died. We're talking trillions of lives conservatively. I really can't let her be separated from those actions. That's just cold, hard fact. These things happened. She had a hand in it. She did plenty wrong.
But really, I don't think that's the bigger scope question.
How much responsibility does she bear?
This is where I really fall in line with the video. Let's review.
She was made to be extremely empathic, to the point where it could be said she only enjoyed the things she enjoyed because they were what Hermes enjoyed. With that amount of empathy, she was hit with the sorrow and despair of hundreds of different societies as shown to her by hundreds of her sisters...ALL.AT.ONCE! That's an impossible amount of grief to sort through for anyone.
After being hit by all of this, she tried to run away. She knew what would happen if she reported back to Hermes. I don't normally advocate running away as a general rule. But in this particular case, she was right. She tried to avoid what she knew was going to happen but was foiled when everyone (including the Warrior of Light) hunted her down. Her only recourse was cut off.
Finally, once given a way out by the WoL, she took it. She broke free from her sisters and even helped the WoL reach the Endsinger. She was begging for us to stop them. So as an individual apart from her sisters she joined the side of the heroes.
Now the video goes on to try to lay the blame entirely on Hermes. Insofar as there's plenty of blame to go around, I will agree that Hermes does get a fair share. But I'm focusing primarily on Meteion here. I bring this up mainly to show that however much blame we choose to put on Meteion, there are other players on the field who take as much if not more.
My view, it was Meteion's finger that pulled the trigger that destroyed a lot of civilizations. But she was a victim being led by a lot of circumstances far beyond her control.
So that leaves me with one more question.
What should the consequences be for her?
Imagine someone destroyed an entire village. Now imagine looking into the eyes of the lone survivor of that village who just lost their entire family, all their friends, all their colleagues, all their passing acquaintances. Now imagine telling them that you're setting the person free who did it because there are mitigating circumstances. Now multiply that countless times over, only there are no survivors to tell.
But on the other hand, imagine your a single program in an entire Geth concensus called Legion. You didn't ask to be a part of this group. It's how you were created. One day all of a sudden a trauma alters the database that makes up your entire species. You try to run, try to resist. But you're one small part of this whole; a whole that goes on to do many horrible things using your mind, your memories, your knowledge, your body and your name.
Now imagine after countless eons being stuck in this hell you finally managed to break free. Not only do you break free, you make it possible for the heroes to destroy your old collective. They truly couldn't have done it without you. Do you then deserve to stand trial for what happened while you were a part of that collective?
You see, this is the sticky part of the situation. I personally see Meteion as the sweet girl who wanted to be my friend. I personally spent an afternoon with her sharing stories and getting to know her. I personally saw her struggle with all the despair she was hit with. I personally saw her separate herself from her sisters and join me in the fight against the end.
I was not personally one of the ones whose society and planet was destroyed by her and her sisters.
How does a judge/jury allow such a large scale crime be mitigated in any way? How does a judge/jury ignore the hell Meteion went through, the circumstances beyond her control, how she ultimately rose above and helped stop what she helped start?
So, yeah! I know it's a bit of a lengthy read. But it's no simple situation. So I'd really like to hear opinions on this one.
Did Metieon do anything wrong?
Well now, let's be honest. Yes! Whether by her hand alone or by her hand along with her sisters, many worlds died. We're talking trillions of lives conservatively. I really can't let her be separated from those actions. That's just cold, hard fact. These things happened. She had a hand in it. She did plenty wrong.
But really, I don't think that's the bigger scope question.
How much responsibility does she bear?
This is where I really fall in line with the video. Let's review.
She was made to be extremely empathic, to the point where it could be said she only enjoyed the things she enjoyed because they were what Hermes enjoyed. With that amount of empathy, she was hit with the sorrow and despair of hundreds of different societies as shown to her by hundreds of her sisters...ALL.AT.ONCE! That's an impossible amount of grief to sort through for anyone.
After being hit by all of this, she tried to run away. She knew what would happen if she reported back to Hermes. I don't normally advocate running away as a general rule. But in this particular case, she was right. She tried to avoid what she knew was going to happen but was foiled when everyone (including the Warrior of Light) hunted her down. Her only recourse was cut off.
Finally, once given a way out by the WoL, she took it. She broke free from her sisters and even helped the WoL reach the Endsinger. She was begging for us to stop them. So as an individual apart from her sisters she joined the side of the heroes.
Now the video goes on to try to lay the blame entirely on Hermes. Insofar as there's plenty of blame to go around, I will agree that Hermes does get a fair share. But I'm focusing primarily on Meteion here. I bring this up mainly to show that however much blame we choose to put on Meteion, there are other players on the field who take as much if not more.
My view, it was Meteion's finger that pulled the trigger that destroyed a lot of civilizations. But she was a victim being led by a lot of circumstances far beyond her control.
So that leaves me with one more question.
What should the consequences be for her?
Imagine someone destroyed an entire village. Now imagine looking into the eyes of the lone survivor of that village who just lost their entire family, all their friends, all their colleagues, all their passing acquaintances. Now imagine telling them that you're setting the person free who did it because there are mitigating circumstances. Now multiply that countless times over, only there are no survivors to tell.
But on the other hand, imagine your a single program in an entire Geth concensus called Legion. You didn't ask to be a part of this group. It's how you were created. One day all of a sudden a trauma alters the database that makes up your entire species. You try to run, try to resist. But you're one small part of this whole; a whole that goes on to do many horrible things using your mind, your memories, your knowledge, your body and your name.
Now imagine after countless eons being stuck in this hell you finally managed to break free. Not only do you break free, you make it possible for the heroes to destroy your old collective. They truly couldn't have done it without you. Do you then deserve to stand trial for what happened while you were a part of that collective?
You see, this is the sticky part of the situation. I personally see Meteion as the sweet girl who wanted to be my friend. I personally spent an afternoon with her sharing stories and getting to know her. I personally saw her struggle with all the despair she was hit with. I personally saw her separate herself from her sisters and join me in the fight against the end.
I was not personally one of the ones whose society and planet was destroyed by her and her sisters.
How does a judge/jury allow such a large scale crime be mitigated in any way? How does a judge/jury ignore the hell Meteion went through, the circumstances beyond her control, how she ultimately rose above and helped stop what she helped start?
So, yeah! I know it's a bit of a lengthy read. But it's no simple situation. So I'd really like to hear opinions on this one.
Hmmm.
---Dave
I don't think as much can be laid at the feet of Meteion as suggested here. The big problem for her and her sisters was that there was NO SURVIVING CIVILIZATION to be found. Everyone had died, except for a few hangers-on who were just counting down the days to death. She did cause the fall of the unsundered world, but until the final chapters of the recent Hildibrand Adventures there was no indication that any other worlds even existed to be destroyed by the Final Days. (And yeah, that's a hell of a context change to happen in the Light Comedy Goofy Side Story. But Mr. Pupu explicitly says that his entire civilization was wiped out by the Final Days, which means it was one that the entelechy swarm hadn't found yet 5000 or so years ago but had made it up to tech levels higher than Allagan by the present. I do wonder if there was a lapse of editorial control there.)
Meteion's actions would, in modern legal terms, be considered a clear case "not guilty because she's not legally responsible for her actions." The reason behind the insanity defense, the reason children are not tried as adults. The responsibility does firmly fall on Hermes/Fandaniel (who I suspect recognized this eventually and it drove him mad), for deliberately bypassing all the safeguards that had been put in place to keep dangerous concepts from running out of control. Now, under the rules of Elpis, Meteion wouldn't have been "guilty" in the sense a person would be, she would just be destroyed as a dangerous concept. Hermes might've been sanctioned somehow, but he managed to hide what he was doing long enough for it to be too late.
Ultimately, the fall of the Ancients was as inevitable as the fall of Allag, and for the same reasons. (And the same person pulled the trigger, since Hermes was reincarnated as Amon.) A society with astonishing power that was starting to go kinda weird about it, losing sight of morality in their quest for novelty. It's less obvious from the main story quest, but if you do enough of the Elpis side stories and FATEs you see that the levels of amoral mad science going on were pretty high. There's even a FATE where you fight a bunch of monstrosities a guy is testing out, and one of them is clearly a prototype of the First Beast (that caterpillar thing with way too many mouths).
Meteion's actions would, in modern legal terms, be considered a clear case "not guilty because she's not legally responsible for her actions." The reason behind the insanity defense, the reason children are not tried as adults. The responsibility does firmly fall on Hermes/Fandaniel (who I suspect recognized this eventually and it drove him mad), for deliberately bypassing all the safeguards that had been put in place to keep dangerous concepts from running out of control. Now, under the rules of Elpis, Meteion wouldn't have been "guilty" in the sense a person would be, she would just be destroyed as a dangerous concept. Hermes might've been sanctioned somehow, but he managed to hide what he was doing long enough for it to be too late.
Ultimately, the fall of the Ancients was as inevitable as the fall of Allag, and for the same reasons. (And the same person pulled the trigger, since Hermes was reincarnated as Amon.) A society with astonishing power that was starting to go kinda weird about it, losing sight of morality in their quest for novelty. It's less obvious from the main story quest, but if you do enough of the Elpis side stories and FATEs you see that the levels of amoral mad science going on were pretty high. There's even a FATE where you fight a bunch of monstrosities a guy is testing out, and one of them is clearly a prototype of the First Beast (that caterpillar thing with way too many mouths).
---Dave
Complicated question.
The root of the problem lies with Hermes. When we go to Elpis, he's basically in the middle of a mental breakdown over constantly unmaking flawed creations; he can't reconcile the idea of them being actually alive with the Ancients' callous weaving of life and disregard for their creations' existences. He creates the Meteia to go out into the cosmos to find answers from other planets, hoping that some other society had figured it out. This leads to several big problems.
First; his question is flawed from the beginning. He sent the Meteia to find out what happiness meant for others. As Emet-Selch points out, however, he never accounted for the possibility of a bad answer, or one that wouldn't agree with him, or just wouldn't apply to the Ancients at all. So when the Meteia get answers that he can't use, it only breaks him further.
Second; he didn't account for the effects his question would have on those societies. In at least two cases we see, it made things much, much worse. The Karellians (the militaristic people encountered in the second segment of the Dead Ends dungeon) were already in the middle of a world-spanning civil war; Meteion's arrival convinced one side that they had divine backing and drove them from a regular war to total annihilation. As we see in the dungeon, this leads to the last Freedom Fighter launching the nuclear missile barrage that wipes out all of the Peacekeeper warmachina.....which were in the middle of the last population centers. (As he puts it: "I did it, I killed them all! .....I...... killed them all.......") In the second case, the Nibirun (the third segment of the Dead Ends) had achieved an immortal nirvana of sorts, similar to the Ancients. Meteion's question made them realize that, while they'd eliminated hardships, they had nothing left to actually life and grow towards, which drove them all into essentially a mass suicidal depression, and the creation of Ra-La, which has the sole purpose of euthanizing the entire race. And then there were species like the dragons (already driven to the brink of extinction by the Omicrons), or the Ea (the blob-like spirits in Ultima Thule, already long given into nihilism)....
Third; Hermes didn't account for the effects of the journey on the Meteia. Think about Meteion for a minute; she has essentially the emotional development of a young child. She's friendly, eager to please, just happy to be around friends and help them out. Hermes created hundreds, possibly thousands of her, linked their minds together, and threw them out into the unknown cosmos. This is a journey that even a near-godlike being like Midgardsormr struggled with, and even Omega, a soulless killing machine, was nearly driven mad by the emptiness and loneliness. So not only does this army of basically children have to venture into space, surviving whatever dangers they encounter there (and it is canon that at least some didn't make it; the short story "A Question of Life" has a scene of one of the Meteia making contact with the hive mind while being killed by the hazards of space travel), they still had to deal with whatever they found on other worlds.
Fourth, and tying into the previous; Hermes was, quite frankly, a terrible parent. For all he condemns the other Ancients for their callousness towards their creations, he still did the exact same thing. He only really pays attention to Meteion's pain when it's not in the way of his own goals. In the story mentioned above, Meteion has to comfort him over some of her sisters dying, while she's still experiencing it in her mind. Near the end of Elpis, he insists on hearing the Meteia's answers, despite Meteion's horror and distress over it (not to mention Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus, Venat, and the Warrior of Light all trying to talk him out of it), because he can't deal with the idea that it was all for naught. He comes across as somewhere between neglectful and abusive.
So, we have unprepared children, sent out on an extremely dangerous journey into the unknown, where they found dead words, dying civilizations, or places where they only made things worse despite the best of intentions. The Meteia were designed to take on the emotions of those around them to help them relate, but all they found was desolation, despair, violence, and death wherever they went. It's little wonder that they conclude that all life everywhere is suffering and the only mercy is to destroy it all (see most of the Endsinger's lines in the final battle). Combined with being given access to dynamis, a power few of the Ancients believed in at all and even fewer had any remote degree of understanding over, and the Final Days were all but inevitable as soon as the first group of Meteia left.
First; his question is flawed from the beginning. He sent the Meteia to find out what happiness meant for others. As Emet-Selch points out, however, he never accounted for the possibility of a bad answer, or one that wouldn't agree with him, or just wouldn't apply to the Ancients at all. So when the Meteia get answers that he can't use, it only breaks him further.
Second; he didn't account for the effects his question would have on those societies. In at least two cases we see, it made things much, much worse. The Karellians (the militaristic people encountered in the second segment of the Dead Ends dungeon) were already in the middle of a world-spanning civil war; Meteion's arrival convinced one side that they had divine backing and drove them from a regular war to total annihilation. As we see in the dungeon, this leads to the last Freedom Fighter launching the nuclear missile barrage that wipes out all of the Peacekeeper warmachina.....which were in the middle of the last population centers. (As he puts it: "I did it, I killed them all! .....I...... killed them all.......") In the second case, the Nibirun (the third segment of the Dead Ends) had achieved an immortal nirvana of sorts, similar to the Ancients. Meteion's question made them realize that, while they'd eliminated hardships, they had nothing left to actually life and grow towards, which drove them all into essentially a mass suicidal depression, and the creation of Ra-La, which has the sole purpose of euthanizing the entire race. And then there were species like the dragons (already driven to the brink of extinction by the Omicrons), or the Ea (the blob-like spirits in Ultima Thule, already long given into nihilism)....
Third; Hermes didn't account for the effects of the journey on the Meteia. Think about Meteion for a minute; she has essentially the emotional development of a young child. She's friendly, eager to please, just happy to be around friends and help them out. Hermes created hundreds, possibly thousands of her, linked their minds together, and threw them out into the unknown cosmos. This is a journey that even a near-godlike being like Midgardsormr struggled with, and even Omega, a soulless killing machine, was nearly driven mad by the emptiness and loneliness. So not only does this army of basically children have to venture into space, surviving whatever dangers they encounter there (and it is canon that at least some didn't make it; the short story "A Question of Life" has a scene of one of the Meteia making contact with the hive mind while being killed by the hazards of space travel), they still had to deal with whatever they found on other worlds.
Fourth, and tying into the previous; Hermes was, quite frankly, a terrible parent. For all he condemns the other Ancients for their callousness towards their creations, he still did the exact same thing. He only really pays attention to Meteion's pain when it's not in the way of his own goals. In the story mentioned above, Meteion has to comfort him over some of her sisters dying, while she's still experiencing it in her mind. Near the end of Elpis, he insists on hearing the Meteia's answers, despite Meteion's horror and distress over it (not to mention Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus, Venat, and the Warrior of Light all trying to talk him out of it), because he can't deal with the idea that it was all for naught. He comes across as somewhere between neglectful and abusive.
So, we have unprepared children, sent out on an extremely dangerous journey into the unknown, where they found dead words, dying civilizations, or places where they only made things worse despite the best of intentions. The Meteia were designed to take on the emotions of those around them to help them relate, but all they found was desolation, despair, violence, and death wherever they went. It's little wonder that they conclude that all life everywhere is suffering and the only mercy is to destroy it all (see most of the Endsinger's lines in the final battle). Combined with being given access to dynamis, a power few of the Ancients believed in at all and even fewer had any remote degree of understanding over, and the Final Days were all but inevitable as soon as the first group of Meteia left.
Meanwhile, I am continuing to try to do all the DoH job quests in Heavensward without resorting to the market board. By Primus, there's some serious overlapping BS there, along with what I assume was the assumption that no one would ever have a crafting class at a higher level than the current stage in the MSQ. They do seem to have taken some mercy on players in later updates, some of the later items can be found at the Sundries vendor in the Jeweled Crozier (Ishgard), and a lot of them can be found in Idyllshire...although that's L58 in the MSQ, so still a bit of an assumption of lowbie DoH jobs.
Really, it seems like the only viable paths (that don't involve the massive spreadsheets I've set up to track everything) are "drop a million Gil on the market board into the pockets of players who've automated gathering and crafting bots" and "wait until you unlock Idyllshire and spend an entire evening hanging out there buying mats and crafting."
At least in Stormblood they gave up on that and just provided sacks of Ingredients (and then in Shadowbringers they ditched DoH job quests entirely in favor of "not tied to gaining powers" role-like quests). But Heavensward is the Quality of Life nadir for crafting classes in FFXIV.
---Dave
Really, it seems like the only viable paths (that don't involve the massive spreadsheets I've set up to track everything) are "drop a million Gil on the market board into the pockets of players who've automated gathering and crafting bots" and "wait until you unlock Idyllshire and spend an entire evening hanging out there buying mats and crafting."
At least in Stormblood they gave up on that and just provided sacks of Ingredients (and then in Shadowbringers they ditched DoH job quests entirely in favor of "not tied to gaining powers" role-like quests). But Heavensward is the Quality of Life nadir for crafting classes in FFXIV.
---Dave
The moogle tribal quests in the Churning Mists are helpful for getting the levels (assuming one can deal with the moogles being, well, the Moghome moogles), but the actual crafting part, yeah, that was annoying as hell.
Does make me miss being able to use crafting gear for glamour, though. Heavensward was the last time it was labeled as "All Classes". Hell, Hilda's jacket is a crafter's piece.
Does make me miss being able to use crafting gear for glamour, though. Heavensward was the last time it was labeled as "All Classes". Hell, Hilda's jacket is a crafter's piece.
Well, the problem goes the other way. By the time I unlocked Ishgard, all my crafting classes were already L60 or higher, thanks to Provisioning missions (Levequests got 'em all up to at least 50). The materials barriers seem to assume you can't get the levels so easily. I'm currently blocked on a Fishing ingredient that requires flight in the Mists to get to (that'll unlock next week...I only do MSQ with my Sunday night group on this character), and then several things that are in the Hinterlands and won't unlock for a while. At least the stuff I need from the northern part of Sea of Clouds is available from the Sundries guy.
---Dave
---Dave
FYI the demo for Final Fantasy VII Rebirth is now available.
Valentione's Day 2024 - Straight from the Shape of the Heart | FINAL FANTASY XIV, The Lodestone
Event Schedule / From Wednesday, February 7, 2024 at 12:00 a.m.to Wednesday, February 21, 2024 at 6:59 a.m. (PST)
na.finalfantasyxiv.com
FFXIV's Valentine's event starts today. Looks like the main reward is just an emote.
If you know the story, then this isn't really much of a spoiler. And if you don't know the story, you won know what I'm talking about anyway.
The demo is Cloud's telling of the Nibelheim incident at Kalm. It ends with Seph walking into the fire. From what I can tell from the demo, this game's going to be pure awesome.
Yeah, the Valentione's event gets you an emote with under a minute of running about in Gridania. Then there's an optional "use the emote on some people and have a bit of story" like with the Halloween micro-event. Very very slight differences if your character did last year's and the NPCs recognize you. The other new event item is a heart-backed chair you can just buy from the vendor without having to even do the one minute initial quest.
They're definitely phoning in the holiday events lately, I guess all their staff is focued on the next DLC.
---Dave
They're definitely phoning in the holiday events lately, I guess all their staff is focued on the next DLC.
---Dave
Meh, Valentine's Day is just a reason for companies to push their premium overpriced chocolate and clipped and dying flowers to poor saps who still believe in the silly/sappy idea of happily ever after. You get these warm fuzzies for one day and ignore the pain and drudgery of this so called love that inevitably awaits you. It's getting what it deserves.
Happy ******* Valentines Day, you poor deluded saps!
Happy ******* Valentines Day, you poor deluded saps!
I admit, it used to bug me when I was single. But now that I have a properly brainwashed Mollusk, we're just cheesy year round and don't need a special day to celebrate. Maybe a good dinner sometime in February, then buying half off chocolates the day after Valentine's.