Meh. I'm a fan of the current direction. And Archer's era? I could nitpick it to death.
I'm also not sure how the current team would feel when someone not involved in the toy industry implies they're not "toy people."
Transformers Collaborative | Hot Wheels x Transformers
- Thread starter TriBlurr
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I'm also not sure how the current team would feel when someone not involved in the toy industry implies they're not "toy people."
We've just gotten so many takes and retakes on the classic designs and characters that the mid-to-late 90's and 2000's seem like the wild west in comparison, where just about anything was possible.
Broadly speaking I think Archer's tenure did the brand a whole lotta good... and a lot of his seemingly arbitrary decisions made sense in the context of the 2000s... but I also think that it's clear that things changed in a way where his approach was no longer strictly necessary.
The dude was adamant that a line of combiners couldn't work, or headmasters, or tapedeck Blaster and Soundwave. And not only did they work, some worked very well.
Now would Combiner Wars, TR, or Netflix Soundwave have sold as well in 2004? Probably not! But the 2010s and 2000s were two very different times.
I guess I always come back to this when talking about the forces that dictate brand direction- financial forces. Taking things in a radical new direction with Beast Wars only happened because G2 wasn't working. RiD and the UT only happened because Beast Machines wasn't working. Hasbro was all in on Aligned until that didn't work, and they pivoted to the nostalgia heavy direction we're in now.
Hasbro is a corporation. They're only going to take risks on something radically different if the current direction is no longer working. And in an era where a lot of toy companies and brands are seeing shrinking numbers, Transformers is at least staying flat.
Personally? I love the stuff we've been getting from Combiner Wars onward.
There are things I miss about the UT, less so about Aligned. I've come around on Animated... but by and large? I'm pretty happy with the current direction.
The dude was adamant that a line of combiners couldn't work, or headmasters, or tapedeck Blaster and Soundwave. And not only did they work, some worked very well.
Now would Combiner Wars, TR, or Netflix Soundwave have sold as well in 2004? Probably not! But the 2010s and 2000s were two very different times.
I guess I always come back to this when talking about the forces that dictate brand direction- financial forces. Taking things in a radical new direction with Beast Wars only happened because G2 wasn't working. RiD and the UT only happened because Beast Machines wasn't working. Hasbro was all in on Aligned until that didn't work, and they pivoted to the nostalgia heavy direction we're in now.
Hasbro is a corporation. They're only going to take risks on something radically different if the current direction is no longer working. And in an era where a lot of toy companies and brands are seeing shrinking numbers, Transformers is at least staying flat.
Personally? I love the stuff we've been getting from Combiner Wars onward.
There are things I miss about the UT, less so about Aligned. I've come around on Animated... but by and large? I'm pretty happy with the current direction.
I think the differences are not so much down to different teams (although there are definitely differing sensibilities; Archer is a decade older than the brand and the current team grew up on it) as they are from where the brand is/was for each team. I don't think Steevy necessarily meant any slight against the current team, who are no less "toy people", by saying that. Toys changed, Transformers changed. With hits and misses alike (and I believe more of the former in both cases), the teams make toys (and specifically Transformers toys) for their eras.
Archer et al started up prior to a particularly big anniversary in the 20th, when the brand was in a bit of a reinvention period moving from BW to the early Unicron Trilogy. The brand hit the big 20 while having a strong run with shows and lines for kids in the anime-wave-riding Unicron Trilogy. And the mid/late 90s and 2000s were just times when brands were still expanding, rebooting after ending long runs in the early 90s (Armada was the first entirely new-continuity cartoon). Entirely new non-legacy (or more distant legacy) IPs were still fairly commonplace; some ended up being flashes in the pan, as happens, but the cost for companies to try was still less prohibitive than now.
Then the brand exploded (back) into broader public consciousness as a current going concern, not just a nostalgia fling, with the live-action movies, and strode into its next big anniversaries -- 25th and 30th -- on the continuing ripples of that big splash. For better or worse.
Now at 40 the brand is a bona fide long runner that is almost self-sustainingly running on current relevance and goodwill as much as nostalgia, not too dissimilar from how Star Wars has been, and certainly faring better than brands like GI Joe that couldn't parlay the nostalgia into current relevance for any number of reasons. The collector market has grown considerably, and kids are a bit harder to rope into the brand and a bit less certain as a market. It makes sense to play the cards that are there, and I'm sure the team would enjoy the opportunity to go in new directions if that were more of an option. But the drive to maintain an evergreen core is almost certainly not their call alone, but part of the company's expectations for the handling of the brand. Major brands in general (even newer stuff, like Illumination's Minions) are doubling down on what they already are and have, and we're not really in a period of much reinvention in general. It's all big multidecade anniversary years and remakes and extensions of what's already been -- companies cling way more to sure things in general now. And that's the sandbox the current team's in.
Maybe this is what Steevy meant -- at one point the norm was to deploy toy designers to make engaging toys (and thus find novel ways of maximizing play), and at the present time the norm is to have them find novel ways of mining and milking the existing IP.
The pendulum may swing back toward a greater need for reinvention, or away from a corporate cling to the existing untouchable core, or just toward something wholly unexpected and new. And when it does, we'll likely see whoever's running Transformers respond accordingly.
Archer et al started up prior to a particularly big anniversary in the 20th, when the brand was in a bit of a reinvention period moving from BW to the early Unicron Trilogy. The brand hit the big 20 while having a strong run with shows and lines for kids in the anime-wave-riding Unicron Trilogy. And the mid/late 90s and 2000s were just times when brands were still expanding, rebooting after ending long runs in the early 90s (Armada was the first entirely new-continuity cartoon). Entirely new non-legacy (or more distant legacy) IPs were still fairly commonplace; some ended up being flashes in the pan, as happens, but the cost for companies to try was still less prohibitive than now.
Then the brand exploded (back) into broader public consciousness as a current going concern, not just a nostalgia fling, with the live-action movies, and strode into its next big anniversaries -- 25th and 30th -- on the continuing ripples of that big splash. For better or worse.
Now at 40 the brand is a bona fide long runner that is almost self-sustainingly running on current relevance and goodwill as much as nostalgia, not too dissimilar from how Star Wars has been, and certainly faring better than brands like GI Joe that couldn't parlay the nostalgia into current relevance for any number of reasons. The collector market has grown considerably, and kids are a bit harder to rope into the brand and a bit less certain as a market. It makes sense to play the cards that are there, and I'm sure the team would enjoy the opportunity to go in new directions if that were more of an option. But the drive to maintain an evergreen core is almost certainly not their call alone, but part of the company's expectations for the handling of the brand. Major brands in general (even newer stuff, like Illumination's Minions) are doubling down on what they already are and have, and we're not really in a period of much reinvention in general. It's all big multidecade anniversary years and remakes and extensions of what's already been -- companies cling way more to sure things in general now. And that's the sandbox the current team's in.
Maybe this is what Steevy meant -- at one point the norm was to deploy toy designers to make engaging toys (and thus find novel ways of maximizing play), and at the present time the norm is to have them find novel ways of mining and milking the existing IP.
The pendulum may swing back toward a greater need for reinvention, or away from a corporate cling to the existing untouchable core, or just toward something wholly unexpected and new. And when it does, we'll likely see whoever's running Transformers respond accordingly.
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I think what Steevy meant was that the toy designs used to come first, and then be shown to the artists/animators, who would create streamlined character designs.
When Michael Bay came along, the whole model flipped; the artists now create character models first, which are shown to the toy designers, who are told to just reproduce it (in four different size classes).
This is why the toys for non-screen characters tend to be so much more creative, even accounting for budget.
When Michael Bay came along, the whole model flipped; the artists now create character models first, which are shown to the toy designers, who are told to just reproduce it (in four different size classes).
This is why the toys for non-screen characters tend to be so much more creative, even accounting for budget.
Just got notice from BBTS that Rathalos Prime is due in soon. Just in time, I've got two weeks left on my PoL.
Cyberworld feels like we're in toys first territory again, or at least character designs with toys in mind.
Designed to be toys by someone who thought the toys would have elbows, apparently.
(Or at least thought Starscream would have them. Cyberworld Starscream has fake joints that look far more like toy joints than anything that would actually be designed for animation.)
(Or at least thought Starscream would have them. Cyberworld Starscream has fake joints that look far more like toy joints than anything that would actually be designed for animation.)
Elbows? In THIS economy?
"If you're Happy and you Know It clap your...uh...ok, ok, no worries...just got to think about this...."
There is so much about this toy that's bizarre, the way the arms are built makes for a great TM2 asymmetry even though anything behind the wrist ISN'T, it's just mold-mirrored. The upper legs are each their own mold and AREN'T identical. The actual paint is actually so well done it looks over-budget in the way it's applied, the legs are Beast Wars Basic level while the arms are single piece, though he DOES have wrist articulation due to the tail on one side, and there are NINE 5mm ports though I don't know what they're for, including the one the tail, which has its own port, plugs into.
Odd idea, too, for the Hot Wheels Transformers, what if they're the same guy, and Bone Shaker is just Twin Mill after hosting the Ghost Rider? It may be a three-way crossover which explains the royalties cost boost...
There is so much about this toy that's bizarre, the way the arms are built makes for a great TM2 asymmetry even though anything behind the wrist ISN'T, it's just mold-mirrored. The upper legs are each their own mold and AREN'T identical. The actual paint is actually so well done it looks over-budget in the way it's applied, the legs are Beast Wars Basic level while the arms are single piece, though he DOES have wrist articulation due to the tail on one side, and there are NINE 5mm ports though I don't know what they're for, including the one the tail, which has its own port, plugs into.
Odd idea, too, for the Hot Wheels Transformers, what if they're the same guy, and Bone Shaker is just Twin Mill after hosting the Ghost Rider? It may be a three-way crossover which explains the royalties cost boost...
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I only have Galvatron now, but he's pretty good, especially for a $10 toy now.
He'd be close to great with elbows. It's the weird "some articulation but not enough" unhappy medium. I can accept bricks (like the One-Step types). I don't *need* ankle and wrist or waist articulation. But if the figure has knees, it really should have elbows.
Other than that, I am almost all-in with this line. It's zany and gimmicky and *fun*.
He'd be close to great with elbows. It's the weird "some articulation but not enough" unhappy medium. I can accept bricks (like the One-Step types). I don't *need* ankle and wrist or waist articulation. But if the figure has knees, it really should have elbows.
Other than that, I am almost all-in with this line. It's zany and gimmicky and *fun*.
That's another thing with Wheel-Byte, the actual wheels! They're painted AND metal pinned, free-rolling! He rolls better than quite a few actual CAR bots nowadays.
Wait, this is the Collaborative thread. Shouldn't that Sky-Byte post have been made in the Cyberworld thread?
Oops. We went from toy design, to elbows, to shark wheels...
It's the circle of life.
All very well said, but I wanted to highlight this because it touches on probably the ground zero for all of this... Marvel Legends.
Super hero figures predated Marvel Legends but prior to that they were very kid oriented- limited articulation, simple or stylized sculpts, and action features.
Marvel Legends was ToyBiz experimenting with a line aimed at collectors first, with an emphasis on nostalgia.
No Marvel Legend reinvented the wheel. No new designs were achieved via that line. Everything was strictly about replicating the comic designs (and later tv show, movie, and game designs) as accurately as possible with an emphasis on articulation and accessories. No action figures to "compromise" the figure, and generally more paint apps then you'd usually fine in a kid-aimed line.
So already you can see the trends starting- forgoing new ideas to replicate existing designs, emphasis on accuracy, articulation, and paint over gimmicks, and pack in accessories/effect parts. It could all apply to Transformers Generations from Siege onward.
But my point is that this was the first time this had happened. ToyBiz's earlier Iron Man TAS line had gotten very inventive with snap on armour and cool new designs. That wasn't happening with their Marvel Legends line. It was strictly replicating the looks the characters were known for.
Marvel Legends ended up making the six inch scale the default collector scale, with companies like McFarlane and NECA sort of outliers in the seven inch space.
My point though, is that as other IPs and brands moved to become "compatible" with Marvel Legends (Star Wars TBS being the most notable example though far from the only one) the ML approach took hold. That's just the standard now... and I think Transformers Generations began shifting towards that fully in the Prime Wars Trilogy, but fully shifted in WfC.
Looking back though, I think ToyBiz really kicked it off with Marvel Legends. Which is, funnily enough, a Hasbro property now.
I'll never get over how much Hasbro went absolutely insane with the six inch figures for awhile.
Marvel, Star Wars, GI Joe, Dungeons and Dragons, Indiana Jones, Power Rangers, Ghostbusters, Fortnite, the NBA!!! Also the Selfie Series (which I'm still kicking for not getting a Ghostbuster of myself before the line died) and even Transformers had R.E.D.
Now it's just down to Marvel, Star Wars, GI Joe and the occasional Ghostbuster thing.
EDIT: Wow, they did Overwatch figures too.
Marvel, Star Wars, GI Joe, Dungeons and Dragons, Indiana Jones, Power Rangers, Ghostbusters, Fortnite, the NBA!!! Also the Selfie Series (which I'm still kicking for not getting a Ghostbuster of myself before the line died) and even Transformers had R.E.D.
Now it's just down to Marvel, Star Wars, GI Joe and the occasional Ghostbuster thing.
EDIT: Wow, they did Overwatch figures too.
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It does make sense, though, to have something like a unifying scale. A lot of other makers are copying the general six inch frame of reference, to one extent or another, same as MEGO used to be the 'gold' eight inch standard of a different era, and still rules in some collectors circles to the point that NECA still makes them occasionally.
Heck, it's that semi-standardization between franchises that made me want to actually get a Lion-O and Mumm-Ra when they announced them scaled with a MOTU crossover, since that's the majority of my non-robot stuff. The hard part is that there aren't any REAL standards of any sort, even within the same brand, so one person's "This is perfect!" is another's "This doesn't fit with anything I have" so in the end, someone's always unhappy with whatever direction is taken.
Heck, it's that semi-standardization between franchises that made me want to actually get a Lion-O and Mumm-Ra when they announced them scaled with a MOTU crossover, since that's the majority of my non-robot stuff. The hard part is that there aren't any REAL standards of any sort, even within the same brand, so one person's "This is perfect!" is another's "This doesn't fit with anything I have" so in the end, someone's always unhappy with whatever direction is taken.
toy companies marketing to collectors is the worst thing that has happened to toys tbh
there i said it
there i said it
I think the big problem is, if a brand operates entirely on nostalgia and has no NEW fans coming, in, it's basically limiting it's own lifespan as a product line, and quite a few 'toy' companies are nowadays just nostalgia companies. That's part of why I never got the frustration some have over 'kiddie' lines. If you don't bring in the kids, then you're not likely to HAVE a future. I always figure no matter what you do, someone is going to be unsatisfied anyway. But if some part of the franchise I generally like doesn't fit my personal preferences, it probably will fit someone else's, and so still goes to fund things I may like better in the future.
Edit: And besides, sometimes I get lucky. Case in point, I had no interest in Cyberworld...then they put wheels on a shark...
Edit: And besides, sometimes I get lucky. Case in point, I had no interest in Cyberworld...then they put wheels on a shark...
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