Transformers Collaborative | Hot Wheels x Transformers

[Undead Scottsman]

toy companies marketing to collectors is the worst thing that has happened to toys tbh

there i said it

Kind of a chicken and an egg situation for me; is marketing to adults killing the kid market, or is the kid market dying causing them to focus more on adults? One way or another, I feel those two things are intrinsicly linked.

Also apropo of nothing, the "chicken or the egg" problem is entirely how you define the egg.

Spoiler for NEEEEEEEEERRRRRDDD!

Spoiler

If we're just talking eggs in general, then of course eggs came first; they were around long before chickens. If we're talking chicken eggs, well, what defines a chicken egg? Is it an egg laid by a chicken? Or is an egg containing a chicken? If it's the former, then the chicken would have had to come first, if it's the latter, then the chicken egg came first.

 

[Princess Viola]

tbh i think smartphones and tablets are a bigger reason for why the kid market for toys is dying rather than any marketing towards adult

like i don't necessarily think it'll 100% be killed completely by smart devices but y'know it very much is a factor (and why lots of toys aimed at kids have like some sort of tie-in to jive kids are watching on youtube - PS hug you target for infesting the pokémon section with mr beast jive - or have like an app/game they can download on their phone that works with the toys somehow etc)

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

All very well said, but I wanted to highlight this because it touches on probably the ground zero for all of this... Marvel Legends.

Super hero figures predated Marvel Legends but prior to that they were very kid oriented- limited articulation, simple or stylized sculpts, and action features.

Marvel Legends was ToyBiz experimenting with a line aimed at collectors first, with an emphasis on nostalgia.
No Marvel Legend reinvented the wheel. No new designs were achieved via that line. Everything was strictly about replicating the comic designs (and later tv show, movie, and game designs) as accurately as possible with an emphasis on articulation and accessories. No action figures to "compromise" the figure, and generally more paint apps then you'd usually fine in a kid-aimed line.

So already you can see the trends starting- forgoing new ideas to replicate existing designs, emphasis on accuracy, articulation, and paint over gimmicks, and pack in accessories/effect parts. It could all apply to Transformers Generations from Siege onward.

But my point is that this was the first time this had happened. ToyBiz's earlier Iron Man TAS line had gotten very inventive with snap on armour and cool new designs. That wasn't happening with their Marvel Legends line. It was strictly replicating the looks the characters were known for.

Marvel Legends ended up making the six inch scale the default collector scale, with companies like McFarlane and NECA sort of outliers in the seven inch space.
My point though, is that as other IPs and brands moved to become "compatible" with Marvel Legends (Star Wars TBS being the most notable example though far from the only one) the ML approach took hold. That's just the standard now... and I think Transformers Generations began shifting towards that fully in the Prime Wars Trilogy, but fully shifted in WfC.

Looking back though, I think ToyBiz really kicked it off with Marvel Legends. Which is, funnily enough, a Hasbro property now.

Surely the DC Super Powers Collection predates anything by ToyBiz....


(Yes, those figures did have action features, which I think you were trying to push against, but show me a single way any of those figures' comic-accurate designs were compromised by those action features)

 

[LordGigaIce]

Surely the DC Super Powers Collection predates anything by ToyBiz....


(Yes, those figures did have action features, which I think you were trying to push against, but show me a single way any of those figures' comic-accurate designs were compromised by those action features)

Their comic designs were absolutely faithful (and ToyBiz infamously attempted to follow them up... badly).

But my point is that they were limited in articulation and they had action features. Marvel Legends is the first line that I can think of that not only went all in on articulation, but was also dedicated to accuracy, all at the expense of play features.

Full on collector orientation

 

[LordGigaIce]

toy companies marketing to collectors is the worst thing that has happened to toys tbh

there i said it

I disagree. In the 2000s the wisdom was fans were a big enough subset to warrant a bone here or there, but that they weren't a big enough subset to justify gearing the brand towards. That this changed is down to kids checking out of toys in favour of video games and tablets and smartphones.
Hasbro wasn't going to re-orient its entire approach because some ascended fanboys got into the brand teams. Multi-billion dollar companies don't act like that.
Any re-orientation occurred because market data told them that fans were a bigger subset of the consumer base than they had been before.

I think the big problem is, if a brand operates entirely on nostalgia and has no NEW fans coming, in, it's basically limiting it's own lifespan as a product line, and quite a few 'toy' companies are nowadays just nostalgia companies.

I think this outlook may be rooted in some 2000s era thinking where once a show was off syndication it wasn't super accessible.

Now with streaming it's easy to revisit G1, BW, the UT, Animated, Prime, Rescue Bots, etc...

So you can totally have kids who grow up watching G1 or the UT today. That's why I have no qualms with Hasbro doing Cybertron figures in Generation.
Did Cybertron Sideways need an update? No, but his OG toy goes for $90-$100 these days. Giving newer, younger collectors who are just discovering these characters accessible mainline options for retail at Walmart isn't the worst idea.

That's part of why I never got the frustration some have over 'kiddie' lines. If you don't bring in the kids, then you're not likely to HAVE a future.

I never got that frustration either. Large swaths of RiD '15, Cyberverse, and ES weren't my cup of tea but I never resented them. They had their charm and they were great entry points for new fans.

And I'm really psyched about CyberWorld.

 

[Haywire]

I disagree. In the 2000s the wisdom was fans were a big enough subset to warrant a bone here or there, but that they weren't a big enough subset to justify gearing the brand towards. That this changed is down to kids checking out of toys in favour of video games and tablets and smartphones.

Counterpoint: Is it the kids checking out of toys or is it the parents? I know my kid may be growing up in a non-standard environment, but he's never met a toy he didn't like. Yeah, he will watch YouTube and Tubi whenever I let him, and he's super into Minecraft for some reason, but he also regularly plays with Lego, Transformers, army men and GI Joes, Bluey, Paw Patrol, PJ Mask, Hot Wheels, even good old wooden blocks. Sometimes all at once. Pretty much the only limits are what he's in the mood to play with, and what his parents buy for him.

It makes me wonder how much of this shift is actually the kids, and how much is really just their parents' perceptions influencing their purchases?

And I'm really psyched about CyberWorld.

I've gotta say, I'm much more stoked to find a lot of these CyberWorld figures than I am about most of the SDCC AotP and SS reveals.

 

[Princess Viola]

Now with streaming it's easy to revisit G1, BW, the UT, Animated, Prime, Rescue Bots, etc...

So you can totally have kids who grow up watching G1 or the UT today. That's why I have no qualms with Hasbro doing Cybertron figures in Generation.
Did Cybertron Sideways need an update? No, but his OG toy goes for $90-$100 these days. Giving newer, younger collectors who are just discovering these characters accessible mainline options for retail at Walmart isn't the worst idea.

are kids actually watching these old shows tho or are they just watching the new jive that streaming services push on them tho

not even me being sarcastic or whatever, i'm genuinely curious.

 

[Superomegaprime]

Counterpoint: Is it the kids checking out of toys or is it the parents? I know my kid may be growing up in a non-standard environment, but he's never met a toy he didn't like. Yeah, he will watch YouTube and Tubi whenever I let him, and he's super into Minecraft for some reason, but he also regularly plays with Lego, Transformers, army men and GI Joes, Bluey, Paw Patrol, PJ Mask, Hot Wheels, even good old wooden blocks. Sometimes all at once. Pretty much the only limits are what he's in the mood to play with, and what his parents buy for him.

It makes me wonder how much of this shift is actually the kids, and how much is really just their parents' perceptions influencing their purchases?



I've gotta say, I'm much more stoked to find a lot of these CyberWorld figures than I am about most of the SDCC AotP and SS reveals.

It sounds like they are a well rounded kid, into everything and nothing at the same time, of course parents choices can have a effect upon a child's choices

 

[Steevy Maximus]

Counterpoint: Is it the kids checking out of toys or is it the parents? I know my kid may be growing up in a non-standard environment, but he's never met a toy he didn't like. Yeah, he will watch YouTube and Tubi whenever I let him, and he's super into Minecraft for some reason, but he also regularly plays with Lego, Transformers, army men and GI Joes, Bluey, Paw Patrol, PJ Mask, Hot Wheels, even good old wooden blocks. Sometimes all at once. Pretty much the only limits are what he's in the mood to play with, and what his parents buy for him.

It makes me wonder how much of this shift is actually the kids, and how much is really just their parents' perceptions influencing their purchases?

That's a valid point: Do kids not want toys, or are parents just shoving screens in their faces skewing what parents perceive they want? And if a kid has a video screen blaring in their face, are they even paying attention to their surroundings for toys to catch their attention?

I know I've been hearing the "screens/video games/phones" are killing toys for nigh on 30 years...but I grew up with computer and video games, cable TV and still had plenty of toys. Hell, the death of dedicated toys stores and the fracturing of the market demographics, in my opinion, have done more overt damage to the action toy segment than any video game or online device.
But I also didn't have an online connected video player on me 24/7 with access to BILLIONS of hours of content on me at all times, either.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

I think this outlook may be rooted in some 2000s era thinking where once a show was off syndication it wasn't super accessible.

Now with streaming it's easy to revisit G1, BW, the UT, Animated, Prime, Rescue Bots, etc...

So you can totally have kids who grow up watching G1 or the UT today. That's why I have no qualms with Hasbro doing Cybertron figures in Generation.
Did Cybertron Sideways need an update? No, but his OG toy goes for $90-$100 these days. Giving newer, younger collectors who are just discovering these characters accessible mainline options for retail at Walmart isn't the worst idea.

I think you're on to something. It used to be that a show would absolutely END and you didn't know if you would ever see it again. You'd remember it. Fans of the next thing would never know. That is just not how it works anymore, so a lot of the assumptions made back then shouldn't work anymore either.

 

[LordGigaIce]

Counterpoint: Is it the kids checking out of toys or is it the parents?

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. If kids- or more precisely kids' parents- aren't buying toys in as large numbers as they did before then the influence the collector fanbase has will grow. Doesn't matter if that change is being driven by new generations of kids not being into toys or parents' perceptions and priorities, either way that shift is happening.

Like... I'm under no delusions that this is ultimately about $$$ to Hasbro. Chris Cocks doesn't care what Optimus Prime looks like, if he's a loving tribute to G1 80s Prime or if he's a monster truck/gorilla hybrid with flames. What matters is financial success.
So that is to say that Mark, Evan, and co's clear love for the franchise and its history are tolerated and enabled... as long as it contributes to the bottom line.

If adult fans were just a relatively small portion of the consumer base then Hasbro wouldn't care to cater to them. Hasbro does though, because the shrinking kids market- whatever the reason- has made collectors a far more important slice of the consumer base pie (chart).

Or to put it bluntly? If market data still supported Aaron Archer's way of doing things, they'd still be doing those things.

are kids actually watching these old shows tho or are they just watching the new jive that streaming services push on them tho

not even me being sarcastic or whatever, i'm genuinely curious.

I don't know. All I can go on is anecdotal evidence, which isn't evidence at all.

I teach high schoolers. And they have broad knowledge of who Optimus Prime, Bumblebee, etc... are. I've also been teaching for 12 years (jfc) and I've noticed that shift. I'd say that, in 2013, your average high schooler, if they cared, would picture the Bay characters if they thought about Transformers. That's no longer the case. Be it the live action movies skewing close to G1, older series being available, or some combination of both, I'd say most teens, if you asked them to picture the Transformers, won't necessarily default to the Bayformers. Likely it's some G1-inspired evergreen design.

Beyond just my IRL observations as someone cursed blessed to spend his professional life with our future generations, I'm also in a few Transformers Discord servers that have users that range from older than me (38 ftr) to older teens. Through these groups I've met some teens and young adults super into G1, RiD '01, and the UT.
I'm not sure if they came to those as kids or if they're more recent discoveries... but I can say that the relative ease of accessing this stuff now compared to even ten years ago has resulted in younger generations finding these older shows and connecting with them.

None of this is remotely scientific but it's what I've observed.

I will, however, say this. Server space for streaming services isn't free. If this stuff has remained up... someone's watching it enough to justify its continued accessibility.

I think you're on to something. It used to be that a show would absolutely END and you didn't know if you would ever see it again. You'd remember it. Fans of the next thing would never know. That is just not how it works anymore, so a lot of the assumptions made back then shouldn't work anymore either.

Exactly. Sure, the team had refined the UT engineering philosophy by 2005/2006 that they could have done another pass at Armada Starscream or Megatron, but why? Armada was over. Maybe someone somewhere was still running it on a programming bloc to fill airtime, but it was over. Maybe some fans would buy the DVD box set, maybe some kids had a few episodes on DVD their parents bought them, but the show was done and it was on to the next thing.

That's not the game anymore. Everything is available at the click of a button or remote. And most young parents these days grew up with some version of the franchise so if you're a young parent who needs something to keep Junior entertained... and you see the Transformers show you used to watch on whatever streaming service you're using... why not?

Or say you're a teen who saw the latest movie and you liked it and you wanna explore more about the franchise? Used to be you'd read about these past shows that were inaccessible. Now you can read about Armada or Beast Wars and go "hey it's no hassle to check that out."
Maybe you're 15 and you laughed your ass off finding out that Optimus Prime once said "boobies" in the 80s. The official Transformers YouTube channel has that episode up. For free.

It's why I don't take issue with Generations revisiting these old designs... thanks to streaming these old designs get new fans every day and maybe a teenager who's really into Cybertron Vector Prime would prefer to pay $35 at Walmart for the Legacy version instead of the $100 the original Cybertron version goes for on the aftermarket?

I 100% agree with the notion that this franchise needs to make new fans... but I don't think the old logic of "if you lean into older takes for the line you won't make new fans" works anymore given the changing media landscape.