I love that phrase!
Upcoming Live-Action Film Rumors
- Thread starter Undead Scottsman
- Start date
I love that phrase!
I have never met someone who didn't find the TF07 soldiers the most likable characters in the movie.
Left cheek!
Hence why these executives are so out of touch with their audiences.
Lennox and Epps were pretty cool guys, but nah, we gotta have all the main focus on Samuel James Witwicky, plus his obnoxious parents and his arm candy.
Transformers came out in 2007. Which is notable because the MCU would kick off the very next year with Iron Man.
Had Transformers come out just a few years later after Hollywood realized the money to be made in interconnected brand universes, it's entirely possible the movie is pretty much exactly the same only Lennox was named "Duke" and Epps was named "Roadblock."
Now the question is... how much does your enjoyment of the 2007 movie change if literally everything else is the same, it's just that the human military characters have GI Joe names?
I admit I would find it neat, but I'm a dork posting on a Transformers message board. I'd wager to the vast majority of people they wouldn't care.
Had Transformers come out just a few years later after Hollywood realized the money to be made in interconnected brand universes, it's entirely possible the movie is pretty much exactly the same only Lennox was named "Duke" and Epps was named "Roadblock."
Now the question is... how much does your enjoyment of the 2007 movie change if literally everything else is the same, it's just that the human military characters have GI Joe names?
I admit I would find it neat, but I'm a dork posting on a Transformers message board. I'd wager to the vast majority of people they wouldn't care.
If they got the characterization right, then sure. Though one of the strengths of GI Joe is the cool vehicles and the idealized part of a crossover is Transformers who turn into those cool vehicles, which I feel like is breaking the glass before the emergency.
Even GI Joe fans wouldn't like it. "That's not accurate at all", "Roadblock would never say Left Cheek, he should've been Big Lob" (starting a fight with another guy who makes a snide joke about the absurdity of a soldier in a jersey), "why aren't they dressed in their 1982 gear, how is anyone supposed to recognize them" or whatever the hell. I drifted onto those message boards around the time of ROC and POC. It was everything the movie-era TF boards were like, except now they also gave a good goddamn whether the gun one dude came with was believable for his character or a decent representation of a Kalashnikoopa from 1977 or a Glonk from more recent times.
Live-action Transformers is better with humans, it's better with the coming-to-Earth and Earth-interaction aspect. Boxing the human element out so it's Oops All Robots is like saying Power Rangers should ditch the civilian/school/whatever scenes, the unmorphed friendship/love triangle dynamics, everything but the morphed fights and the Megazord battles. Or that X-Men should be 99% real or simulated fights with Sentinels. Even if you set aside the point (which you should NOT set aside) that casual audiences are not coming here for The Toys Being Advertised, humans necessarily become the narrative glue that holds the CGI robot action shots together. "Their War. Their World." just doesn't work nearly as well.
For one, a HUGE part of it is selling the Transformers as immense, incredible, COOL otherworldly beings -- living machines that could be all around you RIGHT NOW. You lose all of that when it's just them faffing around with each other. Even the original animated series didn't spend too long before jumping right into that dynamic. Didn't even make it past the first third of the opening miniseries.
And there are so, so many ways of accomplishing that, so many kinds of human lives that are interesting as foils to these alien robots who only know war, who have unusually (to us) long lives, and who are perhaps more durable than they deserve to be. The human characters we've gotten are generally GREAT for playing off of that. A high school bag of hormones who doesn't take his family belief in sacrifice seriously, and is only coasting so he can get a car to get girls, oblivious that they'd be out of his league even then, has a TON to learn. A soldier who's just had a kid and has something new tonight and live for, suddenly facing a whirling mass of metal blades hidden in the sand, hell yeah. A young woman who sees nothing of value in her small, humdrum life after shutting herself in out of the sadness of losing the one person who "got" and "saw" her, great. A slimy businessman who got where he is by casually and confidently selling out the human race, thinking he'd be spared (guess how he votes), wonderful. A vengeful, well-connected professional who makes it his mission to kill all these damn robots, even if it means allying with one, cool. A washed-up soldier who drifts aimlessly until he sees a score that could save his family from economic ruin, solid starting point.
They're not all gems by any means, but so many of even the ones we've gotten are good character profiles and play off Transformer archetypes (and the whole plot of huge disruptions to their lives) well. Bay and friends squandering them repeatedly doesn't invalidate that point; it just means their input should be on things that have nothing to do with the writing and plotting. Set up the explosives, Bay. Go mop up catering, TLK Writers Room. Seriously, write them well and this isn't even a question for most people who aren't just looking for a highlight reel of animated robot action.
To assume the only way, or even the best way, for Transformer/human interaction to work is with some hardass soldiers who are also great at war and bang bang pew pew is too narrow a view, and leaves way too much on the table, reducing so many angles that could be useful to the narrative as foils.
Live-action Transformers is better with humans, it's better with the coming-to-Earth and Earth-interaction aspect. Boxing the human element out so it's Oops All Robots is like saying Power Rangers should ditch the civilian/school/whatever scenes, the unmorphed friendship/love triangle dynamics, everything but the morphed fights and the Megazord battles. Or that X-Men should be 99% real or simulated fights with Sentinels. Even if you set aside the point (which you should NOT set aside) that casual audiences are not coming here for The Toys Being Advertised, humans necessarily become the narrative glue that holds the CGI robot action shots together. "Their War. Their World." just doesn't work nearly as well.
For one, a HUGE part of it is selling the Transformers as immense, incredible, COOL otherworldly beings -- living machines that could be all around you RIGHT NOW. You lose all of that when it's just them faffing around with each other. Even the original animated series didn't spend too long before jumping right into that dynamic. Didn't even make it past the first third of the opening miniseries.
And there are so, so many ways of accomplishing that, so many kinds of human lives that are interesting as foils to these alien robots who only know war, who have unusually (to us) long lives, and who are perhaps more durable than they deserve to be. The human characters we've gotten are generally GREAT for playing off of that. A high school bag of hormones who doesn't take his family belief in sacrifice seriously, and is only coasting so he can get a car to get girls, oblivious that they'd be out of his league even then, has a TON to learn. A soldier who's just had a kid and has something new tonight and live for, suddenly facing a whirling mass of metal blades hidden in the sand, hell yeah. A young woman who sees nothing of value in her small, humdrum life after shutting herself in out of the sadness of losing the one person who "got" and "saw" her, great. A slimy businessman who got where he is by casually and confidently selling out the human race, thinking he'd be spared (guess how he votes), wonderful. A vengeful, well-connected professional who makes it his mission to kill all these damn robots, even if it means allying with one, cool. A washed-up soldier who drifts aimlessly until he sees a score that could save his family from economic ruin, solid starting point.
They're not all gems by any means, but so many of even the ones we've gotten are good character profiles and play off Transformer archetypes (and the whole plot of huge disruptions to their lives) well. Bay and friends squandering them repeatedly doesn't invalidate that point; it just means their input should be on things that have nothing to do with the writing and plotting. Set up the explosives, Bay. Go mop up catering, TLK Writers Room. Seriously, write them well and this isn't even a question for most people who aren't just looking for a highlight reel of animated robot action.
To assume the only way, or even the best way, for Transformer/human interaction to work is with some hardass soldiers who are also great at war and bang bang pew pew is too narrow a view, and leaves way too much on the table, reducing so many angles that could be useful to the narrative as foils.
Last edited:
If you just change the names, then no the film doesn’t get magically better. You have to take away focus from the while Sam, parents, and Megan fox. Give focus to the kids, and show off some of their abilities and vehicles.
I do like the thought experiment about a TF franchise post phase 1 of the mcu.
The problem isn't that it focused on Sam, the problem is that Sam's parts were the most cringy, poorly written bits of the movie and were excruciating to watch.
There's a thing I like to call the Kaiju paradox. Ostensibly, when watching a giant monster movie, you're there for the giant monsters. Either to see them wreak havoc, or to tussle with other giant monsters: but you can't make a movie that is 100% giant monsters; it'd be too expensive, so you have to have a human plot and lots of it. This means the movie often lives or dies by the quality of that human plot.
Some of the best Godzilla films are good because of the human plots are fantastic (Shin Godzilla and Godzilla Minus One for example). Transformers is a little different as the transformers are (supposedly) strong characters in their own right instead nonverbal forces of nature; but the budget still applies.
So it's not an issue that Sam is the focal character of the film; it is an issue that he's annoying, embarressing and written poorly, because at that point you're just suffering through his scenes to get to the parts of the movie you want to watch.
There's a thing I like to call the Kaiju paradox. Ostensibly, when watching a giant monster movie, you're there for the giant monsters. Either to see them wreak havoc, or to tussle with other giant monsters: but you can't make a movie that is 100% giant monsters; it'd be too expensive, so you have to have a human plot and lots of it. This means the movie often lives or dies by the quality of that human plot.
Some of the best Godzilla films are good because of the human plots are fantastic (Shin Godzilla and Godzilla Minus One for example). Transformers is a little different as the transformers are (supposedly) strong characters in their own right instead nonverbal forces of nature; but the budget still applies.
So it's not an issue that Sam is the focal character of the film; it is an issue that he's annoying, embarressing and written poorly, because at that point you're just suffering through his scenes to get to the parts of the movie you want to watch.
That I agree with. Like I said, write them well and none of this is an issue for most people, and the brand is better for all audiences for it.
Just as Spielberg wanted.
Part of it is also that the Transformers' personalities don't really come across in the movies --especially not in the first one, where (aside from Cullen's Optimus and radio-bee), all the Autobots had the same rumbling "Generic Big Guy" voice.
And yes, I know it bombed and every part of it is therefore toxic in all future discussions, but I genuinely feel like RotB had the best approach with Mirage and Noah; reiterate the human-partner dynamic that's been such a fixture of TF fiction from all the way back in G1, while remembering to let the TF half of the partnership actually speak (as much as I loved Bumblebee, having to align with Bay's continuity crippled it).
Then keep the surrounding TF cast small, so that they each have room to show off their own personalities by interacting with the Hero Pair.
(There's also the independent question of pacing; modern movies --especially Bay-influenced Transformers movies-- are hyperactive ADHD fits made by executives on speed and Monster Energy drinks. No one gets an interesting character in that. If TF movies want to show us that these giant alien robots have personalities, they need to be unafraid to slow down and give us a few "downtime" scenes --and if there are human characters around to compare/contrast with, all the better.)
And yes, I know it bombed and every part of it is therefore toxic in all future discussions, but I genuinely feel like RotB had the best approach with Mirage and Noah; reiterate the human-partner dynamic that's been such a fixture of TF fiction from all the way back in G1, while remembering to let the TF half of the partnership actually speak (as much as I loved Bumblebee, having to align with Bay's continuity crippled it).
Then keep the surrounding TF cast small, so that they each have room to show off their own personalities by interacting with the Hero Pair.
(There's also the independent question of pacing; modern movies --especially Bay-influenced Transformers movies-- are hyperactive ADHD fits made by executives on speed and Monster Energy drinks. No one gets an interesting character in that. If TF movies want to show us that these giant alien robots have personalities, they need to be unafraid to slow down and give us a few "downtime" scenes --and if there are human characters around to compare/contrast with, all the better.)
Of all of RotB's problems, Noah and Mirage wasn't one of them. That was pretty well done, imo. One of the issues, however, relates to the second point. The movie has the perfectly sized robot cast at the start. Optimus, Bumblebee, Mirage, Arcee, and then Scourge and two goons as villains. That's a pretty manageable cast, when you include Noah and his bro for the human side of things.
But then the movie decides it also wants to be a Beast Wars story, so we get Airrazor, Primal, Rhinox, and Cheetor. Suddenly the robot cast balloons. Airrazor probably gets the most to "do," but she never even transformers. Rhinox and Cheetor barely say anything. And it's around the time they show up that the McGuffin hunt starts and suddenly we're in a grey CGI wasteland final battle, and it starts feeling A LOT like a Bay movie without Bay's sense of style or cinematography.
Clearly there are multiple issues at work here, but I think resisting the urge to shoehorn the Maximals in there would have done wonders for the movie's character dynamics, at the very least. A criticism of Bay's movies was that the Transformers barely felt like characters, and RotB seemed to be on track to rectifying that before it just veered off course by shoving in more characters then the narrative needed just because.
That says more about the rest of the movie than it does about the soldiers, really.
Nah, they're fun. Lennox and Epps have really good "action movie buddy duo" chemistry.
Feels like that could be more attributed to Josh and Tyrese's natural charms, charisma, and acting chemistry that they themselves brought to the roles rather than anything from the writers and director.
Possibly, but that's movie making. It's a collaborative effort. Everyone needs to bring something.
This was one of the reasons it was so annoying that they kept pussyfooting around the decision to reboot. But Bee being a mute in this setting worked well, because they leveraged that into an Iron Giant style plot, where the friendship develops over a necessarily longer period because the human character has to help him piece things together. Although I am imagining a nice movie where he and Charlie can banter a bit so they're more equals and friends rather than her babysitting a big soft alien war machine; that could work too (but the Iron Giant angle was done well here).
ROTB was an instance where presenting the human/TF leads as equals worked well and gave us two characters who could play off each other. The execution was uneven because Noah was... Idk, boring, at least next to the much more vibrant Mirage. But people did like them having that, because a robot lead with personality is a great thing to have in a movie that ostensibly wants to sell you on these robots.
This was an immediate red flag to me when ROTB was announced as having Autobots and Decepticons and Terrorcons and Maximals oh my. That was never going to have any narrative breathing room.
Splitting that into two movies would have been the way to go. First movie has Noah and Mirage and grumpy Optimus facing Terrorcon agents who are after the Transwarp key. It's only at the end, after the bad guys lose, that the Unicron connection gets revealed: he revives Scourge, who kills (?) Bumblebee. Airazor shows up to portal the Autobots to safety, and despite not knowing whether they can trust her, they have no choice.
The next movie can introduce the Maximals and their backstory (open with Scourge killing Apelinq, etc) and the rest of the battle to prevent the Transwarp gate whatever from being opened. I think THAT might still be overstuffed, but at least Prime and his crew and the Diazes (idk how much we really need Elena, sorry, maybe she can get focus in that next movie) get a decent bit of space in their own, previous movie.
It's always been this. The first movie was already showing signs of this, but they went into overdrive with the "let's film first and write later" situation ROTF was in and really just never looked back. At some point one of the writers mentioned it was basically writing a theme park ride, and that metaphor really stuck with me for how accurate it was. There was just never a shred of care about quality or depth or emotional resonance; this was accomplished in token bits like dragged-out orbital shots or lens flare sunsets that have lines and moments that never get sustained or don't have as much weight as they're made out to or aren't sustained enough to ("best thing that ever happened, Emily"). And a tacked-on speech from Prime at the end, he'll class it up. But the film proper is just balls to the wall without slowing down at all. By DOTM (escape in a jet craft) and AOE (recycled escape in a jet craft, punch hold slide repeat) and TLK (all the nonsense with the Suicide Squad in the town and abandoned hotel thing) there were transparently scenes crammed in there to provide Exciting Action For Its Own Sake.
(And what little downtime we do get, it's mostly just the humans, and that's ALSO sloppily put together with quick cuts and shoehorned-in dubbed lines to make it make sense.)
But sometimes they do stumble upon something that shows what it COULD be. Cade confiding in Prime about raising his daughter (there's so much more that conversation could've been). Prime reminding Sam that his fated role in things was bigger than he realized. Attinger meeting with Lockdown. There should be ebbs and flows in the action, because as much as one can show them becoming fire-forged friends bonding in the heat of battle, there's so much more that can be done over stretches of time in proper conversations that deal with stuff the human AND Cybertronian characters are carrying.
The takeaway is that these human characters are still strong elements in a Transformers movie. Part of writing is coming up with characters to populate the scenes with, and maybe most of what they say and do (idk how much of this that was memorable was from ad lib takes). Part of directing is putting people with chemistry in contexts where they can play off each other and improve the dynamic that way. And the chemistry they do have is something they bring to the table. They all have a hand in making the soldiers a worthwhile part of the plot, which they can't really do if the production just sidelines humans to focus on the bots.
What's striking to me is how little the actors get to play off each other. Bay's editing is so hyper. The actors get one line or rarely two if they're lucky before the camera cuts again. Then the lights and camera get repositioned for another line or two. Cut. Cut. Cut. This is hell. Yet everyone remains perfectly in character the whole time. Say what you want about whether Bay's characters are any good, but the actors played the heck out of the characters as written, to the extent they were written. They nailed it. They even seem to play off each other, despite doing nothing of the sort as their lines were filmed one snippet at a time.
They must have been given some direction.
They must have been given some direction.
