Transformers: The Basics

[LordGigaIce]

Making all of them Primes all traces back to the naming of Vector Prime and his lack of carrying a/the Matrix, years before the 2007 movie's success kicked off the Binder's development.

See I had very little idea of who or what the Thirteen were when Cybertron was current. Just that it was a thing somewhere and maybe important.

So when Vector Prime showed up I assumed he was a past Matrix bearer who'd time travelled to help out the present day Autobots for reasons (something something Unicron something something Primus something something darkest hour).

I didn't make any connections to the Thirteen at first, much less assume Vector meant they were all Primes.

Had there even been just a throwaway line about Vector being one of Optimus' distant predecessors as Prime all of this could have been avoided.

Or who am I kidding? They'd have found another way to make it dumb.

 

[Sabrblade]

Forest Lee nailed it down in the first page of the first comic he ever wrote for Fun Pub:

So even before the Cybertron cartoon first premiered in Toonami, the Thirteen all being Primes had been set in stone without any regard to what being a Prime actually meant anymore. Just "special", which is so vague and superficial that it might as well not mean anything at all.

 

[LordGigaIce]

See I didn't read my first FP thing until... well... must have been 2008 at the earliest?

 

[Sabrblade]

See I didn't read my first FP thing until... well... must have been 2008 at the earliest?

Same, though for me it was more like 2010, I think.

But I did read fan forums with members who did read the Fun Pub stuff. I also read Wikipedia, and eventually TFWiki when it became its own thing separate from Wikipedia.

And later episodes in the Cybertron cartoon did eventually see Vector Prime mention the Thirteen once the English version started adding easter egg references to the scripts and off-screen dialogue to pad out moments of silence from the Japanese version.

 

[Sabrblade]

One thing we also haven't mentioned was how the decision to make Optimus being the Thirteenth Prime reincarnated was a late decision. As Chris said in the video, absolutely no Aligned media besides the Covenant book ever mentioned it. Not the novels, not the video games, not the Prime, Rescue Bots, RID2015, or Rescue Bots Academy cartoons, nor anything else. And all of these media that released prior to the Covenant book's release treated the Thirteen's relation to Optimus as their being his predecessors/ancestors, not his siblings.

The Covenant book released at the tail end of 2013 in that December, which was not only after the end of the Prime cartoon but also after the HasLab department that Rik Alvarez, Aaron Archer, and Andy "Who cares about continuity?" Schmidt were a part of had been shut down in 2012. So, while we don't know for sure how far back before its release the book first went into production, but it likely would have been first written only after the master plans for the Aligned continuity's future would have already been derailed and in the can. At which point, the decision to make Optimus be the Thirteenth Prime may very well have come about after the collapse of HasLab, or even at the tail end of its existence since Aaron seemed to know about it enough to imply that it was made before HasLab went under. People rag on Rik for supposedly being the one behind the decision, but the book's credited author is Justina Robson. For all we know, she could have come up with it on her own and been given permission to put it into the book.

 

[lastmaximal]

This could all have been avoided if the Thirteenth Prime were Skull-Fckr.

 

[LordGigaIce]

And all of these media that released prior to the Covenant book's release treated the Thirteen's relation to Optimus as their being his predecessors/ancestors, not his siblings.

Didn't they do a thing where Cybertronians had "zodiacs" that tied them to two of the Thirteen, with Optimus stated to be "aligned" to Prima and Alpha Trion?
That doesn't really work if Optimus is their brother

 

[Sabrblade]

Didn't they do a thing where Cybertronians had "zodiacs" that tied them to two of the Thirteen, with Optimus stated to be "aligned" to Prima and Alpha Trion?
That doesn't really work if Optimus is their brother

All the more evidence that the decision to make Optimus be the 13th was a later decision.

I wish I could read the Binder.

If anyone else wishes to, PM me.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

The Ultimate Guide was so much better than all this.

 

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

Sigh...

But ffs Aaron. I know you weren't a super nerd about this stuff, and in a lot of ways that was a boon to your era... but if you're doing something like this? You kinda have to be a super nerd?
Not knowing who Logos was does make sense since he only existed in a Takara-exclusive story that hadn't even been fully translated at the time, but how does the head of the Transformers brand team, in 2010, not know who the Last Autobot is?

I'm not even a Marvel G1 fan, and I knew back then at the age of 23. Just... jeeze. I know this comes off like Comic Book Guy levels of snark, but my point is you kinda have to go to that level of nerdom for what the Covenant/Aligned was supposed to do.

Just... know the lore you're trying to synthesize. Do your research. TFWiki existed back then. It was super easy to do deep dive on this stuff.

Yeah, this is kinda what I was saying when the subject of Archer's -- for lack of a better term -- ignorance came up before.

When I asked Aaron why it had been decided to make the Thirteen all Primes (since they originally weren't Primes back when Furman first introduced the group as a concept), he told me it was simply to make them all sound special. While he agreed that making them all Primes begged the question of what exactly it now means to be a Prime if not an Autobot leader chosen to bear the Matrix, he also chuckled at how that's no longer a concern of his since he's not with Transformers anymore.

 

[LordGigaIce]

While he agreed that making them all Primes begged the question of what exactly it now means to be a Prime if not an Autobot leader chosen to bear the Matrix, he also chuckled at how that's no longer a concern of his since he's not with Transformers anymore.

Rik Alvarez recently said something about Optimus being the Thirteenth being a late decision and that the hope was someone would come up with a better idea later to override it.

The dumb thing is that people have. Be it IDW1's "the Arisen," IDW2's take that the current Matrix bearer was the Thirteenth, EarthWars going with Nova, the Prime Wars cartoon going with Sentinel, or TFO going with Zeta... almost every piece of fiction that touches on the Thirteenth goes out of its way to not make it Optimus, or least leave some doubt/wiggle room.

While I don't love all of these (Nova and Sentinel each now have enough going for them that I don't think they work/need to be the Thirteenth) they're all better then it being Optimus. And at any point Hasbro could have gone "ok we're switching gears to that."

AotP was the perfect chance to do it because it must have been in the planning stages when TFO was in production, so someone at Hasbro should have called an audible and gone "it's Zeta in the movie, it's just going to be Zeta from now on."

The timing was there to synthesize it all, but they didn't. AotP doubled down on Optimus being the Thirteenth. Thing is AotP has no tie in media, and I don't see outside creators suddenly warming up to the idea now, so we're probably going to get more alternative takes in the future.

Stuck in this limbo where Hasbro officially says one thing but every adaptation just ignores it for something else.

 

[Sabrblade]

The thing is, the most likely reason no one at Hasbro has overridden the idea of Optimus being the 13th is because Mark Maher is a HUGE fanboy of the Covenant book and LOVES the idea of Optimus being the 13th. He genuinely thinks it is awesome and either doesn't know or doesn't get why the fans hate the idea so much. He unironically thinks it makes Optimus even cooler.

 

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

Rik Alvarez recently said something about Optimus being the Thirteenth being a late decision and that the hope was someone would come up with a better idea later to override it.

The dumb thing is that people have. Be it IDW1's "the Arisen," IDW2's take that the current Matrix bearer was the Thirteenth, EarthWars going with Nova, the Prime Wars cartoon going with Sentinel, or TFO going with Zeta... almost every piece of fiction that touches on the Thirteenth goes out of its way to not make it Optimus, or least leave some doubt/wiggle room.

While I don't love all of these (Nova and Sentinel each now have enough going for them that I don't think they work/need to be the Thirteenth) they're all better then it being Optimus. And at any point Hasbro could have gone "ok we're switching gears to that."

AotP was the perfect chance to do it because it must have been in the planning stages when TFO was in production, so someone at Hasbro should have called an audible and gone "it's Zeta in the movie, it's just going to be Zeta from now on."

The timing was there to synthesize it all, but they didn't. AotP doubled down on Optimus being the Thirteenth. Thing is AotP has no tie in media, and I don't see outside creators suddenly warming up to the idea now, so we're probably going to get more alternative takes in the future.

Stuck in this limbo where Hasbro officially says one thing but every adaptation just ignores it for something else.

 

[LordGigaIce]

Is there actually NO thirteenth?

The Thirteenth was the friends we made along the way.

I don't love the idea of the Thirteenth being a present day character who is a "reincarnation," but if it must happen Rodimus seems like a more natural fit since he's already rooted in Chosen One trappings from '86.

Still, I'd prefer the Thirteenth to just be someone else. Easiest way forward and you sidestep so much baggage that way.

The thing is, the most likely reason no one at Hasbro has overridden the idea of Optimus being the 13th is because Mark Maher is a HUGE fanboy of the Covenant book and LOVES the idea of Optimus being the 13th. He genuinely thinks it is awesome and either doesn't know or doesn't get why the fans hate the idea so much. He unironically thinks it makes Optimus even cooler.

That's both frustrating and funny. Frustrating because we're just stuck with this dumb idea, but funny because he's fanboying over a plotpoint that even the people behind it didn't really believe in and just sort of did it at the last second for reasons.

 

[Sabrblade]

Rik Alvarez recently said something about Optimus being the Thirteenth being a late decision and that the hope was someone would come up with a better idea later to override it.

Do you have a source for this statement?

 

[LordGigaIce]

Do you have a source for this statement?

IIRC it was in another thread- the AotP thread I think- where @Powered Convoy was conveying a conversation he had with Rik at a convention. Nothing by way of an official interview or anything

 

[LordGigaIce]

IIRC it was in another thread- the AotP thread I think- where @Powered Convoy was conveying a conversation he had with Rik at a convention. Nothing by way of an official interview or anything

@Sabrblade found it

I had talked to Rik about Optimus as the 13th Prime while on a toy run a few months back (as I too, didn't like the idea), he said that they came up with the idea hoping that if someone (via official means) came up with an idea more appropriate that they could overwrite the idea of Optimus as the 13. Officially reconning him as not the 13th. Mainly, because the Hasbro fiction team didn't have a better choice as the final Prime.

 

[Sabrblade]

If they knew it was a bad idea, why even bother entertaining the idea in the first place? Why add it to the Binder's lore at all if they didn't like it? They could have just written the 13th as some nebulous, unknown figure of prophecy (like they originally did!) and left it at that. If they absolutely had to incorporate his return into the final battle with Unicron at the end of the universe, they could have just left his identity ambiguous in the lore write-up, saying some "legendary figure [identity to be determined]" would appear to fulfill his destiny in helping to destroy Unicron once and for all.

And like, I keep saying it, but the Last Autobot would have been perfect for this role. At the time of the Binder's first drafting, they could have even given the Last Autobot the name "Zeta Prime", since that name didn't first appear in TF fiction until Spotlight: Blurr in 2008, a year after work on the Binder lore first began. And while "Omega" is the actual last letter of the Greek Alphabet, the name "Omega Prime" had already long since been taken by someone else of greater notoriety at the time. To those less familiar with the Greek Alphabet, the name "Zeta Prime" sounds like it could work for someone who is the "last" of something since the name "Zeta" begins with a "Z", the last letter of the English Alphabet.

And if Hasbro had gone with the Last Autobot being the 13th Prime, and had given him the name "Zeta Prime", IDW would have simply had to come up with some other name for their unseen Prime first mentioned in Spotlight: Blurr, which is no biggie.

In fact, the Zeta Prime from the WFC video game even shares a similar blue and gold color scheme to that of the Last Autobot, which makes this feel even more like such a tease.

And what's even more baffling is Archer's not thinking of the Last Autobot when, back when Vector Prime's toy was first released, so many people were comparing his design to the Last Autobot, claiming that Vector Prime's design was directly based on or inspired by that of the Last Autobot. For instance, Ben Yee's review of the Galaxy Force figure from January 20, 2005 mentioned the similarity. And Archer was one of the two designers who came up with Vector Prime's appearance, the other being Eric Siebenaler. If Siebenaler was the one who modeled Vector Prime's look after the Last Autobot, I find it very difficult to believe that the subject never ever came up during any of their talks with each other in the toy's design process.

 

[lastmaximal]

It was 4:45 on a Friday and they had tickets to SummerSlam.

 

[LordGigaIce]

I came up with an idea kind of tied into what appears to be AotP's story. The Thirteen are reawakening, one at a time. The second to last one to awake is Megatronus. He convinces Megatron and the Decepticons to attack the resting place of [Zeta Prime], the Thirteenth.
Optimus and the Autobots arrive to fight them off, and [Zeta] starts to awaken but Megatronus is able to kill him just as he comes back online.

Optimus, the Autobots, and the rest of the Thirteen turn the tide, and drive Megatronus and the Decepticons off.

In the aftermath it's discovered that part of [Zeta]'s spark is salvageable. The other members of the Thirteen decide that Optimus, as the current Matrix bearer, should take in what remains of [Zeta]'s spark, and this upgrades Optimus into his Stark Convoy form.

Optimus isn't the actual Thirteenth, but he has his power and stands in for him in the wider AotP story.