The jankiness of TF lore: a feature, not a bug

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
Interestingly, there was an even earlier origin story for the Transformers told in the Japanese magazine Comic BomBom in 1985, "A Birth of Planet Saybertron" (the actual Japanese title more accurately translates to "The Secret of Planet Seibertron") that predated even the Quintesson origin. It was published before the third season of the cartoon got dubbed into Japanese and ultimately retconned this origin out of continuity, but it is a fascinating look into how some were willing to imagine how the Transformers first came to be back in the brand's second year.
 
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LiamA

Active member
Citizen
As a kid reading the Marvel series (both of them), I actually wanted to see RAAT interact with Joe and Cobra.

In answer to your question, maybe it has to do with Joe being such a thing unto itself. Its own lore and cast and everything can easily consume too much narrative oxygen if what you're really there for is space robots. I didn't mind it whenever it was contained in crossovers, but I started getting tired of it in IDW. It didn't help that Joe was just one of several other franchises intruding on TF in that case, but still. I haven't read any of the new comics, so I don't know how it feels there.
I do believe you just said what I can't.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
Skybound makes GI Joe and Transformers sharing the space feel more natural for a few reasons. One, they give each side some space. There are Transformers comics and GI Joe comics and while they share a universe, they're not always butting into each other.

The other reason is that the Energon Universe was conceived as a shaded universe from the get-go, with a level of planning for how it would work that wasn't there with IDW. IDW had a long running Transformers continuity that they, late in the game, decided to try and graft GI Joe, ROM, and other properties onto.

Huh, sounds like the opposite of how attempted reconciliations usually go. It's occurring to me that "The God Gambit" was an explicit articulation of a value-set in the Sunbowverse that stands in opposition to the post-Furman norm. But as Roberts said in Sabrblade's quote, gods and devils are exciting. They make for high drama with the biggest possible stakes. Once they exist in a narrative, it can be difficult to demythologize them without being a preachy wet blanket about it.
The early fandom- I'm talking online discussions around the G2 and BW eras- was awash with debates about which was better, Sunbow or Marvel, and Marvel seemed to win out in that discussion.
This is reflected because most attempts to reconcile them give prominence to Marvel. Both Club fiction and Hasbro's own stuff with the CoP and the Binder depict the Furman origin as the basis, adding on the Thirteen (which was a Furman concept originally anyway so it meshed with the earlier stuff), and depict the Quints as usurpers who trick Cybertronians into thinking they're their creators before they're found out and overthrown. It's trying to be everything to everyone but is definitely treating the Marvel stuff as the basis for the "true" origin.

Granted, going "the Quints created Cybertron and the Cybertronians and the myth of Primus and everything else grew around the distorted memory of those events" is just shifting the preference to Sunbow, but I find that refreshing.

Roberts is right, gods and devils and cosmic forces are exciting and that's probably why that won out as a preference of the fandom in the 90s and 2000s over the Quints, whose intro was a controversial movie and whose stories popped up in a maligned season (at the time).
And as much as I took Furman to task, he does a good job all things considered. The theology and mythology is simple, but for an 80s toy advert comic it's perfectly serviceable. The Thirteen seemed like an attempt to build on it and flesh it out, but Hasbro took control of that and their attempts weren't great for reasons @lastmaximal pointed out.

I donno, maybe I'm getting older. It's just that the dichotomy between the mundane and the dark, eerie space mysticism of Sunbow seems more intriguing to me now. Maybe I'd still feel drawn to Furman's Marvel origin if it hadn't been expanded and over-explained for decades.

Somewhat related, something that bugs me about worldbuilding in general but certainly applies to theo-mythological aspects is when info is delivered in a way that feels narratively unearned. What's popping to mind is in The Ultimate Guide when Furman laid out a backstory for Primus and Unicron having been different aspects of an ultimate deity called "The One" that had divided itself. (Baby's first Neoplatonism?) When there's no sense of discovery on the part of a character or relevance to ongoing events, I get that too-easy feeling you mention. I have a similar complaint about the whole Ask Vector Prime project, for that matter.
Very well said. I have a huge dislike for AVP because it was just saying "stuff" in a way that meant nothing. Oh, Hyperdrive, the cancelled Euro G1 Autobot leader was the Matrix bearer in Primax 092.0 Beta? What the f does that mean?
At most AVP with give a brief rundown of something, but that's not the same as actual, meaningful fiction.

I think this feeling connects to what you're saying about how mythologies live and breathe and come to be in the real world. Like, the Sunbow show bible didn't lay out anything about the deep history and origins of Cybertron and the TFs - those were established piecemeal as various writers wrote episodes over time, each revelation serving some narrative purpose in the moment. The end result is a janky mishmash of semi-contradictory and partially-constructed ideas, but as you say, isn't that the fun? And doesn't it reflect something true in real life? Like, if you try to make a coherent map and timeline of the world that, say, the Norse gods lived in, you'll find that you have to do a lot of picking-and-choosing from the stories because the storytellers weren't trying to maintain absolute fidelity to a concretely known structure. They were transmitting values through compelling dramas.
Oh yes. Absolutely. Worldbuilding can all too often fall into a trap where everything is so neat and tidy. But look at the monarchies of the world, for example. They're all stories of shifting dynasties. Even Japan, who claims one unbroken dynasty for over a thousand years, had that claim invented to patch over a couple dynastic civil wars. Most countries undergo some kind of shift regarding religion. Be it a mass conversion to a new faith, or faith reawakening and declining in peaks and valleys as centuries move on.
I tend to take Whigs and Marxists to task for the simplicity of assuming history moves in one unchanging direction, but at least they acknowledge history moves. A lot of fictional worldbuilding- and Transformers is no exception to this- tends to default to neat and tidy status quo in terms of faith or politics or culture. There's never attention paid to how messy and complex these issues get in the real world.
 

Steadfast

Freelancer
Citizen
Re: the Quints pre-Movie but post-sent packing— space is kinda weird in the TF cartoon. And not just in terms of travel times/distances (which is a biggie, but anyway). Season 2 gives us a glimpse, but even in The Movie, Perceptor is aware of the Planet of Junk (and at least its rough location) but doesn’t seem to know anything about it. It’s apparently REAL NEARBY but no one’s gone to look or talked to anyone who has. It’s like Star Trek but with no Federation, Vulcans, Klingons, Romulans, etc— lots of nearby Planets of the Week that no one has checked out yet. (The episode with My Boy Deceptitran implies the Cons have some kind of network or quasi-empire, but maybe it was just that one planet.)

SO ANYWAY my headcanon is basically the Quints kinda forgot about Cybertron— what looked like a great humiliation was just a setback. These things happen, like New Coke or the Pepsi Points Harrier. Then they meet Kup and Hot Rod, not realizing who they are (kind of running on cultural autopilot) until HEY THEY ESCAPED THEY’RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT and then Grimlock shows up and somehow, they survive and figure out OH RIGHT WE FORGOT ABOUT OUR CREATIONS THAT REVOLTED AND THE BLOOD OATH WE TOTALLY SWORE.

But yeah, there’s not a lot of through-line from pre-Movie to the Movie. I guess the time travel eps help stitch things up a bit, but I love how made-up-as-they-went-along the cartoon is.
 
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CoffeeHorse

Hanging in there
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
I donno, maybe I'm getting older. It's just that the dichotomy between the mundane and the dark, eerie space mysticism of Sunbow seems more intriguing to me now. Maybe I'd still feel drawn to Furman's Marvel origin if it hadn't been expanded and over-explained for decades.

You're not alone. I like Furman's ideas and think things need to swing back in his direction because what everyone else has done with the Thirteen is terrible, but it's not what I would do. Give me creative control and I would skew heavily towards Sunbow. Grimlock's cool but not that cool. Shockwave is just a guardian. Of an entire planet. And no overt deities. I wouldn't make it impossible for the Marvel origin to fit but I wouldn't offer any evidence for it. Not a word. No Thirteen. No mention of Primus. I wouldn't give Primacron all the glory but he absolutely built a body for Unicron at some point.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
Both Club fiction and Hasbro's own stuff with the CoP and the Binder
And Dreamwave. Can't forget about Dreamwave when it comes to adding the Thirteen to Furman's mythology. ;)

It's trying to be everything to everyone but is definitely treating the Marvel stuff as the basis for the "true" origin.
And then there are the few attempts to say that "both" are true, that the Transformers were created by both the Quintessons and Primus.

The first was the 3H "The Wreckers" comics for BotCon and OTFCC, in which Vector Sigma was connected to Primus for the first time, saying VS was Primus's "physical embodiment" and that the Quintessons took control of it via the Oracle, allowing them to use Primus's power to manufacture and mass produce the first Cybertronians (but after the Quints were kicked off the planet, Primus took control of the Oracle for himself, making it another component of his being, unbeknownst to the Quints who, eons later, believed they still had full control over the Oracle, not realizing they were being played by Primus, but I digress).

A couple of JG1 writers would later write their own similar take on this with a series of retcons that likewise involved Vector Sigma being a physical form of Primus (helped by preexisting Japanese TF media having already described Vector Sigma as the Transformers' "god") that the Quintessons had taken control of when they colonized and mechanized Cybertron into the factory world that it was said to be in the FFOD flashback.
 

Jackpot

Neo-maxi zoom dweebie
Citizen
the Energon Universe was conceived as a shaded universe from the get-go, with a level of planning for how it would work that wasn't there with IDW. IDW had a long running Transformers continuity that they, late in the game, decided to try and graft GI Joe, ROM, and other properties onto.
I'm glad to hear they're doing that well. The IDWverse certainly suffered for their creative decision. I had some cautious hope when IDW started down that path with the official line that other properties would appear only to play the roles that some other alien races or human organizations or whatever would've played. Alas.

The early fandom- I'm talking online discussions around the G2 and BW eras- was awash with debates about which was better, Sunbow or Marvel, and Marvel seemed to win out in that discussion.
I wasn't in the online fandom that early, so I don't know what people were saying then. But from what I recall of pro-Marvel, anti-Sunbow sentiment when I did join, I got a sense that the comics were seen as more "mature". And indeed, Furman had made good use of what could be done narratively in comics at the time, as opposed to TV cartoons: long story-arcs with buildup and payoff that rewarded patience, on-"camera" deaths, inner monologues, less magic-reset-buttoning and more lasting changes to the status quo, etc. I would actually include the gods-and-devils stuff in that too - it's not just that Sunbow didn't go there; the only contemporary cartoon I can think of that went there at all was The Real Ghostbusters, and that was very much its own weird thing. Mainstream Marvel and DC had had quite a history of playing with those ideas that TV cartoons hadn't.

Roberts is right, gods and devils and cosmic forces are exciting and that's probably why that won out as a preference of the fandom in the 90s and 2000s over the Quints, whose intro was a controversial movie and whose stories popped up in a maligned season (at the time).
Yeah, it may have been less about a preference for a divine origin for its own sake, and more about the relative quality of package it came in. Though as you said, Furman's work was also still fairly fresh back then. Primus vs. Unicron seemed full of space-operatic potential; Primacron seemed like a joke. (Side note, looking at "Primacron" is making me wonder if there are any Primus/Unicron shippers. I mean, Rule 34 and all, I wouldn't bet against it, but it had just never occurred to me.)

I donno, maybe I'm getting older. It's just that the dichotomy between the mundane and the dark, eerie space mysticism of Sunbow seems more intriguing to me now.
When I was a kid, Rodimus' first Matrix trip genuinely gave me the heebie-jeebies. That howling ghost tearing through figures? The inscrutable imagery that still didn't make sense after the second Matrix trip? <shudder> And then when Optimus took his own Matrix trip, there was that weird Quint-face-of-death-looking thing that explained things to him. So strange. And now that I think of it, the other most heebily-jeebily Sunbow moment for me was when Scourge mutated after putting the Matrix inside himself. What is up with that thing?
 

NovaSaber

Well-known member
Citizen
Re: the Quints pre-Movie but post-sent packing— space is kinda weird in the TF cartoon. And not just in terms of travel times/distances (which is a biggie, but anyway). Season 2 gives us a glimpse, but even in The Movie, Perceptor is aware of the Planet of Junk (and at least its rough location) but doesn’t seem to know anything about it. It’s apparently REAL NEARBY but no one’s gone to look or talked to anyone who has. It’s like Star Trek but with no Federation, Vulcans, Klingons, Romulans, etc— lots of nearby Planets of the Week that no one has checked out yet.
Cybertron was relocated about 20 years earlier, so the idea that there might be planets near it that are charted but not explored/contacted isn't that unusual.

And for that matter, that would also mean Cybertron probably wasn't near Quintessa before that either.

(The episode with My Boy Deceptitran implies the Cons have some kind of network or quasi-empire, but maybe it was just that one planet.)
"The God Gambit" shows them trying to colonize a new one (after being mistaken for local gods makes it easier), and the Decepticons were also involved with the organized crime on the world from "The Gambler".
 

Steadfast

Freelancer
Citizen
Cybertron was relocated about 20 years earlier, so the idea that there might be planets near it that are charted but not explored/contacted isn't that unusual.

And for that matter, that would also mean Cybertron probably wasn't near Quintessa before that either.
I totally forgot about that. (Ultimate Doom, right? I had the impression that after it got zapped waaaaay too close to Earth it was zapped roughly back where it was, but that may well be Status Quo Reset expectations)

That's another thing that should've been a big deal but only ever came up directly (IIRC) in the episode(s) where it happened.

"The God Gambit" shows them trying to colonize a new one (after being mistaken for local gods makes it easier), and the Decepticons were also involved with the organized crime on the world from "The Gambler".
Oh, right. Nevertheless. My broader point stands, though- the portrayal of outer space as an inhabited environment was inconsistent, or at least piecemeal and ad hoc in S2. Then there's almost twenty years of NO RECORDS EXIST and suddenly it's Gulliver's Travels 2005.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
You're not alone. I like Furman's ideas and think things need to swing back in his direction because what everyone else has done with the Thirteen is terrible, but it's not what I would do. Give me creative control and I would skew heavily towards Sunbow. Grimlock's cool but not that cool. Shockwave is just a guardian. Of an entire planet. And no overt deities. I wouldn't make it impossible for the Marvel origin to fit but I wouldn't offer any evidence for it. Not a word. No Thirteen. No mention of Primus. I wouldn't give Primacron all the glory but he absolutely built a body for Unicron at some point.
I like what you're cooking.
I wouldn't be adverse to the Thirteen but I'd just have them be past Matrix bearers. Not the super special awesome children of destiny. Just have this long lineage of Primes that implies that the Matrix- and thus Cybertronian civilization is very, very old. By the time we start talking about the "famous" Matrix bearers- Nova, Zeta, Sentinel, Optimus, Rodimus- we're just in the most recent era of a lineage that's very, very old. Who's Prima? The first Matrix bearer. But then Rodimus goes on his spirit journey and finds out there's something before Prima...

When I was a kid, Rodimus' first Matrix trip genuinely gave me the heebie-jeebies. That howling ghost tearing through figures? The inscrutable imagery that still didn't make sense after the second Matrix trip? <shudder> And then when Optimus took his own Matrix trip, there was that weird Quint-face-of-death-looking thing that explained things to him. So strange. And now that I think of it, the other most heebily-jeebily Sunbow moment for me was when Scourge mutated after putting the Matrix inside himself. What is up with that thing?
One of my favourite things about early IDW was Nova Prime as a Matrix bearer turned bad. This was a guy who was deemed worthy but turned out to be a genocidal expansionist asshole. What does that SAY about the Matrix? Was Nova at one point a worthy Prime who went bad? Or is the Matrix something that is beyond what we assume are its moral constraints? Maybe it's so old and its origins so beyond us that it doesn't work the way we view morality as working and someone like Nova could have been "chosen" for reasons only it knew?
It ties in with what the Matrix did to Scourge. What WAS that thing?

Tying back to your earlier bit about the spookiness of Rodimus and Optimus' spirit journeys... that's the thing about Sunbow G1. Yes, it didn't bother with a god figure, but space and the wider universe was eerie, unnerving, and disconcertingly quiet at times. It seemed vast and unknowable, like what we got to see was just surface level stuff. The peaks into the Matrix were a glimpse into older and stranger forces at work that even our heroes who were millions year old alien robots didn't fully understand.

It is a particularly intriguing thing that got far lamer once it was explained by the Generations Selects comic. I'd like to see another crack at it that explored the notion that there are beings and forces tied to the Matrix from before even the Autobots' earliest recorded Matrix bearer and that this thing is very, very ancient. How it ties in with Primacron and Unicron could also be fascinating.

My mind goes to the idea that the Matrix would be something that maybe even predates our universe (to borrow a concept from Furman) and somehow survived the creation of ours. It's something Primacron and the Quints and Autobots have all discovered at various points but what it is exactly, and what its true purpose is, remains a mystery. If I were writing it, I'd maybe work out the answers to those questions, but I don't think I'd ever fully explain it. Just leave hints here and there and lean into the eerie mystery of the Sunbow view of the cosmic setting.
 

Jackpot

Neo-maxi zoom dweebie
Citizen
I totally forgot about that. (Ultimate Doom, right? I had the impression that after it got zapped waaaaay too close to Earth it was zapped roughly back where it was, but that may well be Status Quo Reset expectations)
Yeah, I've wondered about where exactly Cybertron was supposed to be after TUD. It was pushed back away from Earth by Megatron's ship full of energon cubes getting blown up... which somehow had no effect on Earth and only left Megatron a little banged-up and singed, but never mind that. In the next episode, Starscream was able to fly there pretty easily, which seems to suggest it's not too far away, though of course as you've already pointed out, space travel in the cartoon is wack across the board. After that episode, I'm hard-pressed to think of any references to its location, but it just sort of seems like if it were still around the solar system, that ought to have come up somehow. Though actually, thinking about it now, that could explain why space-bridge alignment stopped being such a thing. In the earlier episodes, coordinating when and where the space bridge could operate was a plot point, but in later ones, everyone seemed to use it at will. If Cybertron were significantly closer, maybe that made it easier to line up. Anyway, twenty years later, in FFoD, Blurr and Wheelie arrive at Pluto after having traveled some time from Cybertron on their way to Earth, which suggests that Cybertron is out somewhere past that, and also roughly within the plane of planetary orbits.

(Of course in the real world, I'd bet cash money that after "Countdown to Extinction" the writers neither knew nor cared where Cybertron was supposed to be.)
 
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Jackpot

Neo-maxi zoom dweebie
Citizen
My mind goes to the idea that the Matrix would be something that maybe even predates our universe (to borrow a concept from Furman) and somehow survived the creation of ours. It's something Primacron and the Quints and Autobots have all discovered at various points but what it is exactly, and what its true purpose is, remains a mystery.
Not to mention Vector Sigma's "Before Cybertron was, I was." As much as I dislike shoehorning Primus into the Quint origin, that really does suggest that the Quints built their factory around something beyond their own understanding.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
Yeah, I've wondered about where exactly Cybertron was supposed to be after TUD. It was pushed back away from Earth by Megatron's ship full of energon cubes getting blown up... which somehow had no effect on Earth and only left Megatron a little banged-up and singed, but never mind that. In the next episode, Starscream was able to fly there pretty easily, which seems to suggest it's not too far away, though of course as you've already pointed out, space travel in the cartoon is wack across the board. After that episode, I'm hard-pressed to think of any references to its location, but it just sort of seems like if it were still around the solar system, that ought to have come up somehow. Though actually, thinking about it now, that could explain why space-bridge alignment stopped being such a thing. In the earlier episodes, coordinating when and where the space bridge could operate was a plot point, but in later ones, everyone seemed to use it at will. If Cybertron were significantly closer, maybe that made it easier to line up. Anyway, twenty years later, in FFoD, Blurr and Wheelie arrive at Pluto after having traveled some time from Cybertron on their way to Earth, which suggests that Cybertron is out somewhere past that, and also roughly within the plane of planetary orbits.

(Of course in the real world, I'd bet cash money that after "Countdown to Extinction" the writers neither knew nor cared where Cybertron was supposed to be.)
"Roll for It' showed Cybertron to be all the way far outside the Milky Way galaxy:

G1_Cybertron%27s_galaxy.jpg


Though, there also shouldn't be all those stars surrounding it; it should instead be an empty black void of space.
 

LBD "Nytetrayn"

Broke the Matrix
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
Since this has managed to run for the better part of three pages (spanning four on the old thread), I figured that maybe this topic doesn't really belong in the "not worth its own thread" thread.

Was originally going to call it "Gods, Merchants, & Naturally Occurring Gears, Levers, and Pulleys," but then realized it went beyond just the origins.

 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
"Roll for It' showed Cybertron to be all the way far outside the Milky Way galaxy:

G1_Cybertron%27s_galaxy.jpg


Though, there also shouldn't be all those stars surrounding it; it should instead be an empty black void of space.
If I could be a nerd about things... TECHNICALLY a rogue star that's not part of a galaxy is possible, just as a planet outside of a galaxy would be.

I know this was Cybertron after it had been moved.... but going off of this...


Not to mention Vector Sigma's "Before Cybertron was, I was." As much as I dislike shoehorning Primus into the Quint origin, that really does suggest that the Quints built their factory around something beyond their own understanding.

... I like the idea of Cybertron being built around something not fully understood, and having it be this planet just... beyond galactic space, floating in the void with maybe a companion star and its moons and nothing else just adds to that in the best way.
 
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