The jankiness of TF lore: a feature, not a bug

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
Now, compare those nine figures to the mountain of cartoon-based and IDW-based figures we've gotten in the past decade plus.
I think it comes down to how Hasbro views the property... or more explicitly, the fans.

They likely assume that if you're a Marvel G1 fan you're in for all of G1, be it Sunbow stuff or just normal Generations stuff that takes some cues from the toys. They've shown a willingness to do Marvel G1 stuff if they deem it unique and noteworthy enough (Jihaxus, Straxus, Xaaron, Flame, mouthplate-less Soundwave) but they otherwise assume fans will just lump it all as "G1." Why do Marvel G1 Prime when ER Prime or even SS '86 Prime, is close enough. Hell, get the Marvel inspired Shockwave they did with the Marvel Optimus head accessory and you can really get a Marvel G1 Optimus by swapping out ER Optimus' head.

IDW, meanwhile, is a different beast. I'm hesitant to say "IDW art style," because for the thirteen years their main continuity ran they cycled through a number of writers and artists and visual styles, but when people talk about IDW these days they mostly refer to the Roberts/Barber/Milne/Roche era that capped off their first ongoing continuity.

And the fans of THAT stuff are very much the fans of THAT version of IDW. They don't even like the previous IDW stuff that much, or the IDW that came later, it's specifically that last run from Last Stand of the Wreckers and The Death of Optimus Prime through to the end of the IDW 1.0 continuity. Again, the Roberts/Barber/Milne/Roche stuff.
The people who love this version of IDW and nothing else are probably the majority of IDW fans these days, and they tend to not have much interest in anything else. A Marvel G1 fan will still engage with other G1 stuff, or even stuff outside of G1, but IDW fans are VERY loyal to their version of the franchise.

All of this is to say that if you're Hasbro doing some comic releases, leaning into Roche and Milne's IDW style and referencing Barber and Roberts' stories, is the best way to keep those IDW fans engaged. Marvel G1 fans simply don't need as targeted an approach to be reached.

Speaking of IDW figures... I find that the "IDW style" works best in toy form if restrained. T30 went full on Roche and Milne IDW, and while there were a few standouts, it was a line that by and large suffered.

The IDW stuff since- TR Sentinel Prime, Chromedome, and Rewind, Legacy Nova Prime, those Legacy multipacks with Orion Pax, Miner and Gladiator Megatron, Senator Ratbat, and Senator Shockwave- all faired much better because they tempered the IDW stylings. The head sculpts are all very IDW, and the bodies have some sculpting that calls to mind IDW's stylized designs, but they passed those designs through G1 blocky filters. And while some people hate when that happens, it worked here because it gave the figures a solid base to function off of with IDW flavouring on top.

Again, look at T30 Skids or Goldfire Bumblebee for what happens if you don't do that. Those things barely function as toys.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
That's how I've felt all along. I mean, I love me some Furman - I was reading and enjoying Marvel US when he brought the Primus origin into that. And when it comes to making sense of the nonsense that is TFTM, it works as well as anything. But I find there to be something unsatisfyingly pat about "God a wizard Primus did it." (Similar to real life, actually.) And as you say, there's interesting potential in the holes in the Sunbow story. One of the things that made me a fan of TF above all the other properties I was into as a kid was how many opportunities it gave for broadening its universe in my imagination. Coming up with ways for Primacron and his assistant and the Matrix and everything to be connected was (and is) way more interesting to me than thinking about Primus.
I admit I have far less of an atheistic aversion to this stuff (my apologies if I misread your point). I'm a big fantasy literature and ancient/medieval mythology fan. Beowulf and the Death of Arthur are some of my favourite books... chosen ones, divine prophecy, great heroes and parties of noble warriors... I do genuinely like all of that stuff, and so Furman's approach and the CoP/Thirteen stuff Hasbro built off of it, are all right up my alley...

... except... well... I have those stories for that, ya know? Or more modern stuff like Lord of the Rings or even Star Wars that plays with these themes better than Transformers ever has. I geeked out at the Arthur and the Sword in the Stone reference Prime did with Optimus and the Star Sabre but... well... is there anything to that? I'm sure there could be, but it hasn't really been explored. And it's not going to be nearly as effective as either Frodo Baggins or Luke Skywalker's hero's journeys, or even the OG tale of Beowulf using a magical sword etched with both Norse pagan and Christian magic to slay Grendel's mother.

Meanwhile Sunbow? Sunbow is a very unique flavour of sci fi, that flourished from about the mid 70s through mid 80s. Kinda trippy, kinda subversive and dark, but not in a gritty way.

And it had mythology- Rodimus goes on a genuine spirit journey to meet the ghosts of his predecessors and he is a chosen one himself, but it's this weird mix of spirituality with hard and fast demythologized backstory. There is no Robo God, these squid aliens made the Cybertronians. The giant planet eating super weapon isn't Robo Satan, this monkey alien scientist made him. The Matrix DOES seem to have some divine or mythic properties, and it's somehow connected to the squids and the monkey scientist, but how? We donno.

Attempts to patch this up have occurred, but those usually try to apply the Marvel/Furman grand mythology to cover it all. And nuts to that. I wanna see an attempt to really explore that 70s/80s tinged Sunbow backstory and connect it all without relying on concepts from Furman/Marvel/the CoP/Thirteen.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
I think it comes down to how Hasbro views the property... or more explicitly, the fans.

They likely assume that if you're a Marvel G1 fan you're in for all of G1, be it Sunbow stuff or just normal Generations stuff that takes some cues from the toys. They've shown a willingness to do Marvel G1 stuff if they deem it unique and noteworthy enough (Jihaxus, Straxus, Xaaron, Flame, mouthplate-less Soundwave) but they otherwise assume fans will just lump it all as "G1."
Certainly doesn't help that most modern reprints keep erasing the "Marvelness" of certain characters' color schemes by replacing them with those of their cartoon counterparts, like Soundwave and Wheeljack.

FlamesofBoltax-SoundwaveRatbat.jpg

FlamesofBoltax-SoundwaveRatbatIDW.jpg

IRobotMaster_hoistjack.jpg
 
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LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
Certainly doesn't help that most modern reprints keep erasing the "Marvelness" of certain characters' color schemes by replacing them with those of their cartoon counterparts, like Soundwave and Wheeljack.

FlamesofBoltax-SoundwaveRatbat.jpg

FlamesofBoltax-SoundwaveRatbatIDW.jpg

IRobotMaster_hoistjack.jpg
That's less a Transformers problem and more an industry problem. Marvel and DC are both in the bad habit of "colour correcting" their old issues, either to fix perceived mistakes or because someone just thought something would look "better" down the line.
The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the proto-Supergirl. DC had a story where Jimmy Olsen used a magical artifact to wish for a super girlfriend for Superman. The result was a girl with blonde hair, and a Superman-esque costume who had all of Superman's powers. She's "undone" and vanishes at the end of the story, but they more or less just recycled the general look of her when they got around to introducing the real Supergirl as Superman's cousin.
Someone at DC was worried, however, that because the same general appearance was used for this earlier Supergirl people would be confused when it was reprinted... so reprints coloured proto-Supergirl's hair red and changed her costume to green and orange.
Or how random background members from the Legion of Superheroes' first few appearances got recoloured green in reprints to give the allusion that Brainiac 5 was always there.

It's the George Lucas "must tamper to fix the problems that only exist in my mind" syndrome but on a more niche scale.
 

Jackpot

Neo-maxi zoom dweebie
Citizen
I admit I have far less of an atheistic aversion to this stuff (my apologies if I misread your point).
I don't think that's an unfair reading of what I wrote, and the more we're talking about real life, the truer it is for me. But to be clear, I'm totally capable of enjoying theistic fantasy - one of my favorite books is The Silmarillion, in particular Tolkien's take on Creation. When we're talking about TF specifically, I feel very aligned with this:
... except... well... I have those stories for that, ya know? Or more modern stuff like Lord of the Rings or even Star Wars that plays with these themes better than Transformers ever has. I geeked out at the Arthur and the Sword in the Stone reference Prime did with Optimus and the Star Sabre but... well... is there anything to that? I'm sure there could be, but it hasn't really been explored. And it's not going to be nearly as effective as either Frodo Baggins or Luke Skywalker's hero's journeys, or even the OG tale of Beowulf using a magical sword etched with both Norse pagan and Christian magic to slay Grendel's mother.

Meanwhile Sunbow? Sunbow is a very unique flavour of sci fi, that flourished from about the mid 70s through mid 80s. Kinda trippy, kinda subversive and dark, but not in a gritty way.

And it had mythology- Rodimus goes on a genuine spirit journey to meet the ghosts of his predecessors and he is a chosen one himself, but it's this weird mix of spirituality with hard and fast demythologized backstory. There is no Robo God, these squid aliens made the Cybertronians. The giant planet eating super weapon isn't Robo Satan, this monkey alien scientist made him. The Matrix DOES seem to have some divine or mythic properties, and it's somehow connected to the squids and the monkey scientist, but how? We donno.

Attempts to patch this up have occurred, but those usually try to apply the Marvel/Furman grand mythology to cover it all. And nuts to that. I wanna see an attempt to really explore that 70s/80s tinged Sunbow backstory and connect it all without relying on concepts from Furman/Marvel/the CoP/Thirteen.
Yes, and I'll add that my favorite approach to TF theo-mythology was how Roberts handled it for most of his run, letting the facts about Primus and the Guiding Hand sit in limbo and giving space for characters - and the audience - to interpret things in various ways. One of my disappointments at the end was how he made things anticlimactically literal. (Part of the anticlimax was the super-rushed pace, but still.) [Edit:] And just to show that I'm not only against TF gods being portrayed as literally real, I also wasn't a fan of the way Barber fully demythologized the Thirteen. Ambiguity can be a good thing!

I like what you said about Sunbow Rodimus' hero's journey, how it has elements of classic supernaturally-based mythology but within a world that's more sci-fi than fantasy. That can be done. Clearly it was informed by Star Wars, but even that was more explicit about the Force being magic-without-saying-magic; the nature of the Matrix and the Darkest Hour prophecy and so on are left open-ended enough that you can fill in those gaps with something other than literal deities and divine powers if you like. For that matter, both Sunbow and early Marvel US leaned into technological language to describe the source of TF life - Vector Sigma was a "supercomputer" and the Creation Matrix was first described as a "program" (that Buster was even able to download into his brain!).

I don't begrudge Furman for introducing gods - in fact, one of those unexplored areas that actually does intrigue me is how the Keeper said Primus and Unicron had been part of a larger pantheon in the pre-Big-Bang universe. What was all that about? But, as you say, the Primus/Unicron mythos is too easy a go-to for filling in the gaps in every continuity. The multiversal-singularity thing didn't help at all; thankfully that's been nixed.

One last thing - I also really like your description of the flavor of sci-fi Sunbow was working with: "Kinda trippy, kinda subversive and dark, but not in a gritty way." The limitations involved in being a kids' property in the '80s helped, I think. I mentioned in my first post that I could go on about all the positive qualities of FFoD, and one of those is how it stayed within those boundaries but played at their edge. Like, you know that in a less constrained version of the same story, Galvatron would've been more explicitly murderous (poor Sweeps), but I don't need horrible things shown to me literally to get the narrative idea. And there's still room for conceptually dark stuff. The final line - "We Transformers have looked into the face of our creators and seen the face of an enemy" - is hard af. I wouldn't want every take on TF origins to be that dark, but retconning a benevolent deity into that one takes something away from it, imho.
 
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Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
That's less a Transformers problem and more an industry problem. Marvel and DC are both in the bad habit of "colour correcting" their old issues, either to fix perceived mistakes or because someone just thought something would look "better" down the line.
It wasn't Marvel who did these. All the "remastering" was done by IDW, in the 2010s.
 

Jackpot

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Citizen
Why do Marvel G1 Prime when ER Prime or even SS '86 Prime, is close enough.
Yeah, the fact that the comic artists and cartoon artists were working from very similar model sheets means that lots of molds can do double duty. But when it comes to the details, per Sabrblade's point, you can bet on Sunbow being prioritized. From the wiki:
[Masterpiece Ratchet] comes with multiple new accessories, mostly various kinds of medical tools he used in the show, including a "repair beam emitter" that plugs into his forearm (used occasionally throughout the series, but first seen in "Transport to Oblivion") complete with an attachable beam light effect, an "arc-welder" that replaces his hand (Ratchet used a tool like this regularly in the series, but this accessory is specifically based on the detailed one seen in "Dinobot Island, Part 2"), a pair of "cyber spanners" (used in "Attack of the Autobots"), a "magno-wrench" (from "The Autobot Run"), a hand-held laser scalpel (also from "The Autobot Run") and an "x-ray blaster" (from "Microbots").
A cornucopia of deep cuts! But what isn't included? These.

when people talk about IDW these days they mostly refer to the Roberts/Barber/Milne/Roche era that capped off their first ongoing continuity.

And the fans of THAT stuff are very much the fans of THAT version of IDW. They don't even like the previous IDW stuff that much, or the IDW that came later, it's specifically that last run from Last Stand of the Wreckers and The Death of Optimus Prime through to the end of the IDW 1.0 continuity. Again, the Roberts/Barber/Milne/Roche stuff.
The people who love this version of IDW and nothing else are probably the majority of IDW fans these days, and they tend to not have much interest in anything else.
To be fair to that contingent, my impression based on zero hard data whatsoever is that Roberts' run did more to bring in new teen and adult fans than probably anything besides the Bay movies. The nostalgia market will always be strongest with fans' "first love". The same principle probably applies to Marvel vs. Sunbow - I expect most people who got into TF in that era did so through the cartoon. (I get the sense that that was flipped in the U.K., but that peculiar little isle would need to be a bigger slice of the market to move HasTak's needle.)
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
(I get the sense that that was flipped in the U.K., but that peculiar little isle would need to be a bigger slice of the market to move HasTak's needle.)
Well, it did keep the toyline going for as many years as it was dead in the U.S. prior to Generation 2. ;)
 

Jackpot

Neo-maxi zoom dweebie
Citizen
"As many years" being... two. Over 30 years ago. I don't know how to find figures on this, but I would be extremely surprised if in more recent times North American TF sales didn't absolutely dwarf UK sales. I mean, it's possible that HasTak is leaving money on the table by not putting more effort into the Marvel nostalgia market, but it's not like they haven't made such toys for retail that have already been brought up in this thread, not to mention the Wreckers combiner. If those sold like Sunbow-styled toys sold, they probably would've noticed.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
It wasn't Marvel who did these. All the "remastering" was done by IDW, in the 2010s.
Well that's my point, it's an industry problem, not a Transformers or Marvel problem. Comic companies mess with reprints all the time, and it's annoying.

Yes, and I'll add that my favorite approach to TF theo-mythology was how Roberts handled it for most of his run, letting the facts about Primus and the Guiding Hand sit in limbo and giving space for characters - and the audience - to interpret things in various ways. One of my disappointments at the end was how he made things anticlimactically literal. (Part of the anticlimax was the super-rushed pace, but still.) [Edit:] And just to show that I'm not only against TF gods being portrayed as literally real, I also wasn't a fan of the way Barber fully demythologized the Thirteen. Ambiguity can be a good thing!
I'm so mixed on how IDW handled the mythology. There's a lot I like! I'm a Euhemerist at heart- the idea that all, or at least most, mythology has some kernel of truth to it, and IDW leaned into that. The idea that the Guiding Hand, the Knights of Cybertron, and the Thirteen were all real, and had their deeds mythologized over time to the point that they became deities, is so interesting to me. As I said, it's an approach I think holds a lot of weight when studying real world myths and religions, so to see Transformers' mythology treated that seriously was, well, a treat.

Further, it seemed like they were on the cusp of pulling off what could have been the single best merger of the Sunbow and Furman Marvel backstories. The Lost Light, over the course of their adventures, find the actual mould Cybertron was "made" in, and between that and the revelation that the pantheons were real, and that Primus himself had a serial number... seemed to be leading to the idea that the Quints made Cybertron and the Cybertronians, and that perhaps the rebellion that freed them from the Quints was the start of the stories that would be mythologized into the broader Cyberyronian mythological cycle. Basically taking that Euhemerist approach to its logical conclusion in the franchise- the Sunbow origin was the kernel of truth, and the Marvel origin was the myth that grew up around it.
Sadly a lot of those ideas were never fully explored so we're left with conjecture, but it seemed to me that's where they were heading.

But as much as I appreciate all of that... Roberts still made his self-insert OC Robot God, and I feel that has to be talked about more 😛 it would have been rightfully torn to shreds if it was posted on Watpad.

Regarding ambiguity... I like it a lot, honestly. Tolkien flat out refused to explain Tom Bombadil and his explanation that sometimes the storyteller needs to keep some things a mystery is a lesson we need to take to heart in our modern age of fan wikis, YT lore channels, and direct access to creators like never before.
Sometimes it's ok if not everything has a clear answer.

I don't begrudge Furman for introducing gods - in fact, one of those unexplored areas that actually does intrigue me is how the Keeper said Primus and Unicron had been part of a larger pantheon in the pre-Big-Bang universe. What was all that about? But, as you say, the Primus/Unicron mythos is too easy a go-to for filling in the gaps in every continuity. The multiversal-singularity thing didn't help at all; thankfully that's been nixed.
One of my favourite Doctor Who episodes involves the Doctor meeting the literal devil who tells him he's so old he's from before the Big Bang and the Doctor can't believe this, he can't accept it, but the TARDIS can't translate the runes in the devil's prison and the devil very clearly upsets the Doctor by telling him that there are aspects to existence even his knowledge as a Time Lord can't fathom. It's the perfect mix of myth, teasing out info, but not saying too much. It also touches on this, the idea of gods and devils existing in a universe prior to our own. It's such a cool idea. And given that Hasbro used Furman's stuff as the basis for so much of their myth making... they ignored the most intriguing stuff!

That, however, leads me to agree with you. I don't dislike theistic myth and fiction, hell I enjoy it if it's done well (see the example I just gave). But Furman's mythology, at least the bits Hasbro seized on and emphasized and built on, is too easy. Not just as a plot device, but as a mythology.
It's baby's first Zoroastrianism, a massive dumbing down of the concepts of Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu, with a sprinkling of Judeo-Christian Messianic theology atop of it.

And while I find Roberts' writing on religion to be a bit too simple from an atheistic perspective, I find Furman's too simple from a theistic perspective. I'm a historian and a theist myself, and religion is a messy business, be it historically or as a matter of belief. It's complex and untidy and even when you have ideas such as ultimate good vs ultimate evil as cosmic forces, these are often shrouded in metaphor, morality tales steeped in the ethos of the time they were written, and layered understandings of theistic belief that can shift depending on who's interpreting what. Furman's mythology is just... too neat and tidy. Which is one area where I appreciated IDW's work, making it seem like it was layered and ever evolving as Cybertronian society progressed.

Sunbow, by contrast, gives us something entirely unique. Sure it reeks of its time- authors in the 80s playing with ideas and tropes from the 70s- but what it creates is enticing, dark, and mysterious. It manages to strip away the godhead and fully explains the creation of Cybertron as a mundane act of consumer economics, and yet has this underlying mystery and mythological elements that add to the unknown. We know there's no Robot God who just made everything in his image, so how is the Matrix explained? It's just as supernatural as it's always been, but that mystery and the potential for worldbuilding is greater BECAUSE the easy answer of Primus is off the table. How does a race of squid aliens, their consumer robots that gained sentience, the monkey alien scientist, and the Death Star he created all tie into this mystical artifact? It's such a juicy proposition. I have my own fan theories but it's not really called for here... but that's the fun, right?

One last thing - I also really like your description of the flavor of sci-fi Sunbow was working with: "Kinda trippy, kinda subversive and dark, but not in a gritty way." The limitations involved in being a kids' property in the '80s helped, I think. I mentioned in my first post that I could go on about all the positive qualities of FFoD, and one of those is how it stayed within those boundaries but played at their edge. Like, you know that in a less constrained version of the same story, Galvatron would've been more explicitly murderous (poor Sweeps), but I don't need horrible things shown to me literally to get the narrative idea. And there's still room for conceptually dark stuff. The final line - "We Transformers have looked into the face of our creators and seen the face of an enemy" - is hard af. I wouldn't want every take on TF origins to be that dark, but retconning a benevolent deity into that one takes something away from it, imho.
Sunbow, particularly its Transformers stuff, had such a vibe that's almost entirely absent from the modern franchise. Even the stuff that's trying hard to homage it or lean on it can't get it right.
The haunting melodies on Cybertron, the goofy aliens, the whacked out designs... it all feels truly alien and disconcerting, like this world's universe is vast and almost unknowable and what bits we see of it beyond the immediate action are either totally odd or off putting or terrifying.

Or sometimes a giant alien child plays with Soundwave like a toy, or Starscream tries to take over Camelot 😛
Sunbow could be all over the place, but it had something special when it locked in and focused on the cosmic stuff and the mysterious of its own backstory.

To be fair to that contingent, my impression based on zero hard data whatsoever is that Roberts' run did more to bring in new teen and adult fans than probably anything besides the Bay movies. The nostalgia market will always be strongest with fans' "first love". The same principle probably applies to Marvel vs. Sunbow - I expect most people who got into TF in that era did so through the cartoon. (I get the sense that that was flipped in the U.K., but that peculiar little isle would need to be a bigger slice of the market to move HasTak's needle.)
Oh I'm not being critical. Everyone has that special entry point, and everyone has that one thing that's very special to them and they wanna see it done right. IDW fans feeling that way about it totally makes sense.

I just think that the nature of IDW vs the nature of Marvel G1 leads to IDW's audience being harder to entice, so you need to lean into it with more dedicated product. Whereas Marvel G1 fans by and large don't need dedicated Marvel G1 to buy in.
 

lastmaximal

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A lot about the trappings of Sunbow is really a product of its time, and charming for it. There's an obligatory Fantastic Voyage episode. Something highlighting Noo Yawk. Quicksand, playing in snow, basketball, pastiches of celebrities, evil duplicates, Atlantis, Camelot, the Bermuda Triangle, living dinosaurs, eventually references to Japanese culture (definitely a fixture of the 80s), and so on. And the "alien" design tropes were also mostly of that era (and Floro Dery's wild mind). Even the music (before everything went full synthwave) definitely pulls from that era's notion of space, alien, unknown (I don't have the language to name the instruments, but definitely the background music when first introducing Cybertron). It's lovely to me as someone who grew up in it. Anything made now, with the lenses we have now, and definitely with this show as PART of the lexicon, would be an approximation. It would be different for the same reason stepping in a river you've stepped in before is not the same experience. For better and for worse. And of course, anything that's developed since will have at least a little of its own such trappings and language, and should. Its audience will grow up seeing at least part of THAT as inimitable.

I've always been torn on the origins. As an old-timer I have the privilege of having been around as the different ones were introduced (but found out about them belatedly), AND I've been here for the many attempts at reconciling and retconning and remixing. I've seen the Primus origin hailed as so much better than the Quintesson origin, I've seen it received as somewhat old hat and too restricting (does everything have to have a Supreme Being), I've seen retcons making it the true origin and dunking on the Quint one, I've seen that criticized, I've seen it partially deconstructed (we fought on the face of space god last week, but I'm still atheistic), I've seen it become the spine of new retellings, I've seen it turned into a Joan Osborne song (I tend to shrug this off from Roberts as parts of it are nicely written, and it's less about "my OC is god" and more bringing the legend down to earth; "this god is just some guy who happened to be around first, and now he really is just some guy").

I like attempts at welding arcs and lore bits together, so currently I'm good with the Primus/Thirteen origin being the core and the Quintesson origin being one of the eras. But I love the idea of also remystifying that: make the Primus/Thirteen origin just one of many possible origins and pantheons and flesh out the others and never, ever confirm or canonize ANY of them. The not knowing can give so much.

The Thirteen was a tantalizing idea, especially as the delays and twists and turns kept keeping Furman from finally codifying them at the time. I was excited for the Covenant book to finally finish that job, but that and the aligning direction of the time kind of fell a bit flat for me. Some of it's the specific choices made (Amalgamous is just one of the clunkiest names ever, the notion of race/subtype being tied to a progenitor, the Token Female Character dying to become a planetary womb, the messianic Thirteenth), and some if it is that nothing would live up to that kind of hype. I almost prefer the idea of just never definitively naming them, having writer after writer just throw candidates out there with clear or tenuous connections. Give us years of this on and off until there are like 55 people claiming or rumored to be in the Thirteen. Vector Prime shows up in Cybertron. Logos Prime claims to be one of the Thirteen. Nexus Prime/Maximus, formed from five scattered amnesiacs, is one of the Thirteen and a friend for lonely nights. Amazon Prime ferries new sparks from the Well to hot spots on the surface (same day delivery). And never confirm them, letting fans make their own rosters.
 

LBD "Nytetrayn"

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Either they or Unicron messed up then, because prior to FFOD they seem to have just been chilling on their planet holding their little mock trials this whole time. They had spacecraft and soldiers and could in theory have hit Cybertron themselves.

How many times did they stage a full-frontal assault on Cybertron in the cartoon? They usually used subterfuge or schemes, sometimes manipulating the Decepticons to be the main invasion force, like in FFoD.

And that's with the Autobots in charge. How well do you think that would have worked while the Decepticons were running the planet for the last four million years?

I don't think that, outside of a school of Sharkticons who were able to be spooked in line by one Dinobot stomping his foot, they really had much in the way of numbers on their side. Might be worth noting that the Sharkticons seemed to usually feed on unarmed prisoners, too.

And while not stated outright, it's not hard to infer that they were indeed snatching up all the crumbs that fell off Unicron's plate, since Kranix was the guy who went before Hot Rod and Kup. And he'd just fled the destruction of his planet like, what, one Earth day or so earlier?

Like, why were they prohibited from messing with Cybertron but not all the war profiteering and whatever else may have been in the Journal that would've "set everyone in the galaxy against them" if it were known?

Maybe they had a busy year. Unicron died in 2005, and Season 3 was 2006, IIRC. And you saw how much change the Autobots were able to effect on Cybertron in that time.

Especially considering that going to Cybertron and throwing the switch would've been very much to Unicron's benefit?

Maybe they had a cushy deal under Unicron, and were fine just doing their thing until he was no longer a factor.

And from Unicron's perspective, what would he care if Cybertron were inhabited by TFs or Quints? (Even as I ask those, I can think of possible answers. So I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just one that has its own complications too.)

Time spent regaining Cybertron and doing their thing there would be time not spent cleaning up his messes, perhaps?

I don't get the impression that Unicron is as nice a boss as, say, Trypticon...

 

lastmaximal

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I agree with all of that, which was part of my point -- if Unicron meant for them to be "enforcers", he messed up by not making them very capable of enforcing (by this I interpret the term to mean actively executing his desire to destroy or whatever rather than waiting for him to destroy and then picking off what's left). As it is they ended up more akin to scavengers that play with their food.

But then we're talking about two different directions for their use, and we're actually both providing arguments for why there's not much trace of the former (enforcers of Unicron's will) and more for the direction S3 WOULD go into (canny alien capitalists and war profiteers).
 

Sabrblade

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Citizen
Meanwhile, here are James Roberts's own words about the original Furman origin:
While Furman makes it sound easy, what he was doing was taking a variety of disparate concepts—Unicron, the Matrix, Cybertron—and tying them all together in a way that seemed logical and organic. What's more, by introducing the Lords of Chaos and the Light Gods, and by establishing Unicron and Primus as godlike beings as old as the universe, Furman was elevating the Transformers story to truly cosmic levels. It was now a bona fide space opera. Readers had always felt—subconsciously, if nothing else—that the Transformers were the most important things within the "Transformers Universe"; in other words, the focus of the story was properly on them. Now it was revealed that the Transformers were uniquely special within their own universe: their destiny was to prevent a satanic demigod from destroying all of reality.

No doubt some readers felt this was a stretch too far, and mourned the passing of the days when the series was about interacting with humans and searching for fuel and blending in with—

No, sorry, I'll say it again: their destiny was to prevent a satanic demigod from destroying all of reality. Find me an 11-year-old Transformers fan that wouldn't have been excited by that.
 

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Citizen
I'm a Euhemerist at heart- the idea that all, or at least most, mythology has some kernel of truth to it,
New vocabulary word unlocked! 🔓🌟

Basically taking that Euhemerist approach to its logical conclusion in the franchise- the Sunbow origin was the kernel of truth, and the Marvel origin was the myth that grew up around it.
Huh, sounds like the opposite of how attempted reconciliations usually go. It's occurring to me that "The God Gambit" was an explicit articulation of a value-set in the Sunbowverse that stands in opposition to the post-Furman norm. But as Roberts said in Sabrblade's quote, gods and devils are exciting. They make for high drama with the biggest possible stakes. Once they exist in a narrative, it can be difficult to demythologize them without being a preachy wet blanket about it.

But as much as I appreciate all of that... Roberts still made his self-insert OC Robot God, and I feel that has to be talked about more 😛
Hahaha, I'd originally included something about that when I wrote about the anticlimactic literalness, but I cut it because it felt a little too pointed. But totally.

One of my favourite Doctor Who episodes involves the Doctor meeting the literal devil who tells him he's so old he's from before the Big Bang and the Doctor can't believe this, he can't accept it, but the TARDIS can't translate the runes in the devil's prison and the devil very clearly upsets the Doctor by telling him that there are aspects to existence even his knowledge as a Time Lord can't fathom.
Right there with you. My go-to example of the same is from Babylon 5 - a scene in a very early episode that helped sell me on the show. It felt especially impactful to me coming in as a young fan of Star Trek, which had a humanistic undercurrent of the universe being fundamentally comprehensible and amenable to our reason and effort.

(Unfortunately the showrunner undercut that later on by bringing the "Walkers" back in a way that made them essentially just another alien race, albeit an ancient and powerful one. But it was nice while it lasted.)

It's baby's first Zoroastrianism, a massive dumbing down of the concepts of Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu, with a sprinkling of Judeo-Christian Messianic theology atop of it.
Ha! Nicely put.

It's complex and untidy and even when you have ideas such as ultimate good vs ultimate evil as cosmic forces, these are often shrouded in metaphor, morality tales steeped in the ethos of the time they were written, and layered understandings of theistic belief that can shift depending on who's interpreting what. Furman's mythology is just... too neat and tidy. Which is one area where I appreciated IDW's work, making it seem like it was layered and ever evolving as Cybertronian society progressed.
Somewhat related, something that bugs me about worldbuilding in general but certainly applies to theo-mythological aspects is when info is delivered in a way that feels narratively unearned. What's popping to mind is in The Ultimate Guide when Furman laid out a backstory for Primus and Unicron having been different aspects of an ultimate deity called "The One" that had divided itself. (Baby's first Neoplatonism?) When there's no sense of discovery on the part of a character or relevance to ongoing events, I get that too-easy feeling you mention. I have a similar complaint about the whole Ask Vector Prime project, for that matter.

I think this feeling connects to what you're saying about how mythologies live and breathe and come to be in the real world. Like, the Sunbow show bible didn't lay out anything about the deep history and origins of Cybertron and the TFs - those were established piecemeal as various writers wrote episodes over time, each revelation serving some narrative purpose in the moment. The end result is a janky mishmash of semi-contradictory and partially-constructed ideas, but as you say, isn't that the fun? And doesn't it reflect something true in real life? Like, if you try to make a coherent map and timeline of the world that, say, the Norse gods lived in, you'll find that you have to do a lot of picking-and-choosing from the stories because the storytellers weren't trying to maintain absolute fidelity to a concretely known structure. They were transmitting values through compelling dramas.

I just think that the nature of IDW vs the nature of Marvel G1 leads to IDW's audience being harder to entice, so you need to lean into it with more dedicated product. Whereas Marvel G1 fans by and large don't need dedicated Marvel G1 to buy in.
Yeah, that makes sense.
 
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