Well, we will see in another ten years or so what happens, if we are still alive and not being forced to work in mines for the AI overlords.
A Long Time Ago In a Galaxy Far, Far Away.... - Star Wars General Discussion
- Thread starter SHIELD Agent 47
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It absolutely is. It has gorgeous cinematography on par with, sometimes surpassing, Empire easy, and it is frankly the smartest Star Wars film, purposely interrogating the franchise's tropes taking each in the opposite direction of expectations to show another side of things all while remaining a deeply Star Wars adventure.
-ZacWilliam, it's easily in the top few Star Wars anything for me.
I feel like it should be noted that the Prequels also have the benefit of almost 18 years of tie-in media to smooth them over and solidify links to the OT (and even to the Sequels themselves, through Dr. McMumbles and Project Necromancer).
The Sequels have one disappointing cartoon, a few "Forces of Destiny" shorts, and some comics (and hugging Fortnite). Maybe in another decade someone will give us a cohesive long-form series that can fill in the narrative and logical gaps.
The Sequels have one disappointing cartoon, a few "Forces of Destiny" shorts, and some comics (and hugging Fortnite). Maybe in another decade someone will give us a cohesive long-form series that can fill in the narrative and logical gaps.
I can't see how someone would say the ST is a set of worse movies than the PT or how someone wouldn't rank AotC at the very bottom without trying to troll people online.
But that's the thing, if we assume we're all coming at this in good faith- and given that we've curated a pretty good community here I think we can say we are- it's best to just admit that this is all incredibly subjective and we're coming at this with different tastes. At that point "I agree to disagree" is a perfectly reasonable position to take.
Speaking of subjective opinions... I found Clone Wars massively overwrought, bloated, and near impossible to get into. People say it "fixes" PT Anakin, but if you need seven seasons of tv to fix PT Anakin then maybe PT Anakin just kinda sucks?
I keep hearing Shadow Lord is good and Ahsoka is one of the better Disney+ Star Wars shows, but I just don't care. I was digging Rebels until Ahsoka showed up, because it was committed to its own story until getting hijacked by Dave Filoni's OC. Incidentally, I found Tales of the Jedi to be great when it was exploring Dooku's gradual disillusionment with the Republic and the Jedi Order, but fell flat when it started trying to cover every second of Ahsoka's life.
I suppose I'd have a better appreciation for Ahsoka as a character if I actually got into Clone Wars, but again I tried and the show seemed too bloated for me to really get invested.
My biggest issue is that she's a very power Jedi-trained Force user who just vanishes once we get to ANH. All of Obi Wan and Yoda's pathos about pinning the hopes of the Jedi on Luke is undone because now you're wondering where Ahsoka is.
She really is the sort of character that needed to die at the end of Clone Wars but alas...
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Ok, I know that you are just expressing your opinion and not really wanting to know but here is my thoughts on why I can say that.
Let's start with why the ST is worse than the PT. Number one reason, the Prequels were an actual thought out story told over three films by one person and it really shows. TPM is about the discovery of Anakin and the rise of Palpatine to power. ATOC is about getting Anakin and Padme together while Plpatine puts the galaxy into a war that he controls both sides of to get more power and to kill off his enemies. ROTS is about Palpatine killing off his enemies and seizing permanent control of the galaxy while turning Anakin to the dark Side. It's all one long story told over three films that connects to the OT. Disney had an outline from George on what to do with the series when he sold it to them, they had an entire EU that they could have pulled from, and they have the clout and franchise to hire the best creatives money could buy, yet they threw it all away and made the ST in the worse way possible. I don't want to go into the ST and break it down scene by scene with you all because that would just be depressing on an already sad day for me. If I were to simplify it like I did for the PT then it would be TFA is assembling a new group of characters to use and killing off Han while putting our heroes as under dogs again. TLJ is simply the under dogs running out of gas until there is just enough of them left to fit into a RV while killing of Luke and Snoke for no reason. ROS is about them trying to fix it all by shoe horning Palpatine into it, trying to redeem Kylo while trying to tempt Rey to the dark side. Now did the ST have some good moments? Yup. Were the films made well? Of course! But so were the Prequels, and at least the prequels had an epic story, where the sequels didn't. Feel free to disagree, it's ok with me. I am just trying to expound here.
Now AotC, has it's problems with bad dialog and some weird character moments, but it's a great film. Tons of fighting with Jedi vs Droids, Clones vs Droids, and we get our second only large scale ground battle in Star Wars films. The Dooku light saber battles were great, and like I said, the Yoda fight always got a cheering in the theaters. It's not my favorite SW film, in fact I put it at #6 on my list, just beating out Rogue One, as that film has a major issue for the first half of it.
Perfectly reasonable. I know that we all don't see eye to eye here, and I take no offense by you two having different opinions on this. To be honest, it is just neat to discuss it though.
I wouldn't say it fixies Anakin, it just lets his character develop more over time so that his actions in Episode 3 aren't just out of nowhere. You get to spend a lot more time with him and the clones. I don't blame you for not enjoying it as it does take some getting into before it really gets good. Its like me not wanting to watch One Piece.
I would highly recommend that you watch Andor if you haven't seen it yet. Also, the Mandalorian is a great show too. A lot of folks didn't like the Obiqwan series but I did, so you will probably hate it.
I don't know what to say to that, other than to recommend that you stick with it, as you haven't hit the best parts of the series at that point.
Oh she is absolutely horrible in most of Clone Wars. It wasn't until the last couple seasons that they got her right, IMO. But if you don't like her in Rebels then you might just be a hater.
just kidding. And if you have finished Rebels, then you would know why.
At the beginning of the show I would have agreed with you. By the end of the show I can say that isn't the case.
That's part of my issue with the PT, it's very poorly paced for the story it wants to tell. I know "rewriting the Prequels" is tired territory so I won't get too into it but...
The PT needed to be centred around the Clone Wars in its entirety. The dialogue where Obi Wan tells Luke about Anakin in ANH strongly implies that Anakin left Tatooine to fight in the Clone Wars with Obi Wan. With Obi Wan telling Luke that Owen is afraid he'd "follow old Obi Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father did."
Clearly George wasn't interested in lining the PT up with that dialogue exactly, but my point isn't to nerd nitpick over inconsistencies. It's simply about the best way to tell a story.
If the Clone Wars break out and a young Obi Wan is forced onto Tatooine for whatever reason he can meet a teenage Anakin. He finds he's very strong in the Force, and they bond with Obi Wan encouraging him to hone his gifts. Maybe the Separatists are making life difficult on Tatooine, and this inspires Anakin to follow Obi Wan both to train as a Jedi and because Obi Wan is fighting against the people who are harassing his home.
This setup gives you an entire trilogy to explore the Clone Wars. Still less time then seven seasons of tv, but you could introduce Rex and Cody and some of the other Clones of note as significant side character in Ep I and you could follow them and Anakin and Obi Wan as they grow through this war through the three movies.
As-is, Ep I feels strangely disconnected. Sure, there are through lines. Palpatine is both behind the Trade Federation blockade and invasion of Naboo and he's behind the outbreak of the Clone Wars. And you even have the Trade Federation involved in both... but even then, ten years pass between Ep I and Ep II. The events of TPM are only tangentially related to the events of Ep II and Ep III. An entire decade of Anakin and Obi Wan's friendship is just glossed over because Lucas insisted on starting Ep I with a 9 year old Anakin. Additionally this choice means that the Clone Wars starts at the very end of Ep II and concludes at the end of Ep III. We only really get one movie to explore the very conflict that sets the stage for the Empire's rise.
Again, by reworking the PT so that Ep I is about the Clone Wars' outbreak, you give yourself much more time to tell that story and flesh out everyone's role in it.
I've seen all of those shows and I actually dig them all. I question the need for Leia to be in the Obi Wan show, because I think it would have been stronger if it was about Ben and Luke forming a bond (they seem to know each other and be on friendly terms at the start of ANH), but the show did enough good that I still liked it. I also think it's kind of funny how by adding another Anakin vs Obi Wan fight into the timeline, Anakin is now a pretty sold 2-1 over Anakin. Which makes his decision to just give up and let Vader strike him down in ANH pretty amusing. "Oh I guess I'll let the poor sap have this one."I would highly recommend that you watch Andor if you haven't seen it yet. Also, the Mandalorian is a great show too. A lot of folks didn't like the Obiqwan series but I did, so you will probably hate it.
My only real complaint with the shows you listed is that while Andor might be one of the best pieces of Star Wars media ever produced, I wish some of its more zealous fans would stop insisting everything in Star Wars be like Andor.
Another show I liked was Skeleton Crew and it's basically Goonies in space. Star Wars should be the franchise where you can tell an 80s kids adventure movie story, or a space western, or deep look into evils of authoritarianism and the struggle to resist. Everything should be viable, and I find it a shame that some fans want Star Wars to be so limited in the stories it can tell.
Oh no doubt I would. Still... it's a bit bothersome ya know? Like... so much about the plot of the OT is that the Jedi are functionally extinct. It's just Obi Wan and Yoda and they're both old as dirt. Vader is one too, but he's thrown in with Team Evil, so it falls on Obi Wan and Yoda to try and train Luke. He is the last Jedi, with maybe Leia as a backup.
Still, the story is centred on the idea that it's Luke's burden not just to defeat the Emperor, but also to continue carrying the Jedi flame. His refusal to kill Vader when he's got him beat speaks to that. He won't kill his father. He won't kill a helpless opponent. He defiantly tells Palpatine he's a Jedi, like his father. And Palpatine spits the word back at him with utter disgust.
This is fundamentally the story of a destroyed order's last hope of survival and redemption.
There have been so many secret survivors of Order 66 revealed over the years that Obi Wan's statement that Vader helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi seems like a bold faced lie, but Ahsoka seems like the most egregious example because she's so central to the narrative both before and after the OT. This is a powerful Force user trained as a Jedi who Obi Wan and Yoda both know well, and she's never even mentioned in the OT? She never pops in? She never even shows up to help with Luke's training?
I'm sure the ending of Rebels gives an explanation, but I don't feel like it would be air tight enough to alleviate this issue.
tbf this is hardly a problem unique to Star Wars. A huge driving plot point of the first three sagas of Dragon Ball Z is that Goku is among the very last of the Sayians and that Frieza effectively rendered them extinct in one massive attack.
But between random Saiyan survivors and parallel universes... well it looks like Frieza kinda whiffed on his death ball.
And I get it. Jedi and Saiyans are cool. So you wanna find ways to bring more in despite the pivotal "they're mostly dead" plot point... but sometimes these franchises need to understand that by over-exposing the cool thing they run the risk of undermining the very pathos of their narratives.
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Yes a fair number of Jedi survived the Purge, but "a fair number" in a "Filling a small conference room at the Holiday Inn" sense. In a Huge Galaxy run by the Empire and under constant threat from Vader and the Inquisitors it's still a very small number really and completely scattered, in hiding, overpowered and broken.
And yes Rebels does give a pretty air tight explanation for Ashoka not being in the OT at all. And it pretty much works I think. Spoilers for Rebels last few Seasons, (not sure if your avoiding it or just getting around to it):
IIRC, During the build up to the Rebelion she works for them under the code name Fulcrum. So folks might know her work but the name and identity of Ashoka are not known in the rebellion really.
At a point in Rebels before the OT she is part of a battle against Darth Vader on the lost Sith World of Malachor and basically dies there (or seems to).
Later at the very end of Rebels (still before the OT) Ezra enters the World Between Worlds in a Jedi Temple. It is an extra dimensional space that connects to important moments in the force throughout time. During the conflict there he pulls Ashoka into the World Between Worlds right before she's about to die and then at the end of the conflict she's cast back to Malachor after the explosion that would have killed her has happened and everyone has left.
She's basically trapped alone on an unknown lost Sith world, in exile, with no ship or way to contact anyone for the entire OT. We never learn how she finally gets off that world. During the Epilogue to Rebels, which is set after the Return of the Jedi when the Empire has fallen she returns to the Galaxy and meets up with the Rebels and eventually post-RoJ Luke to hunt down Thrawn and Ezra.
-ZacWilliam, so yeah, she wasn't part of the Rebelion for the OT years being trapped on a distant unknown world with everyone thinking she was dead.
At a point in Rebels before the OT she is part of a battle against Darth Vader on the lost Sith World of Malachor and basically dies there (or seems to).
Later at the very end of Rebels (still before the OT) Ezra enters the World Between Worlds in a Jedi Temple. It is an extra dimensional space that connects to important moments in the force throughout time. During the conflict there he pulls Ashoka into the World Between Worlds right before she's about to die and then at the end of the conflict she's cast back to Malachor after the explosion that would have killed her has happened and everyone has left.
She's basically trapped alone on an unknown lost Sith world, in exile, with no ship or way to contact anyone for the entire OT. We never learn how she finally gets off that world. During the Epilogue to Rebels, which is set after the Return of the Jedi when the Empire has fallen she returns to the Galaxy and meets up with the Rebels and eventually post-RoJ Luke to hunt down Thrawn and Ezra.
-ZacWilliam, so yeah, she wasn't part of the Rebelion for the OT years being trapped on a distant unknown world with everyone thinking she was dead.
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There is a fan made version of that last fight between them that is really epic and more in line with how they actually fight. I would highly recommend that you check it out.
I agree it gets a lot of hype, but despite it dragging in places, it really is a good show. That is coming from someone that hated the character in Rogue One. That new TIE Advance is awesome, and the fact that he has a kid at the end just gives me some joy given the ending of Rogue One. Also, K2S0 is awesome in this.
I will be honest, I couldn't get into that show. Like I watched all of Resistance but couldn't manage to get through two episodes of Skeleton Crew.
I assure you that it is completely air tight and that you absolutely need to finish Rebels. I cannot and will not tell you anymore on this matter as I don't want to ruin it for you.
The thing is the PT isn't about the Clone Wars. The PT is about the Shakespearean tragedy of Anakin Skywalker. His tragic flaw is a nearly uncontrollable compulsion to help people if he feels there is something he can do. It pops up a lot. If someone needs help right now and there is something he can do about it, it will distract him from his current mission every time.
Having the Separatists mess up life on Tatooine takes away the initial motivating force in Anakin's life: Tatooine is already a terrible place, and the Republic is uninterested or unable to do anything about it. But he remains optimistic. He has a child's imagination (hence why he was introduced to us as a child) of what the jedi are, and what they could do for the place. They could fix it. It's what he would do.
He joins the jedi and finds out that's not what they do. It's an ambassador job, and has strict rules (which he could not have guessed, having seen Qui-Gon in action). They don't help anyone unless it's in their mandate, and Tatooine simply doesn't fall within that mandate. That crushes his enthusiasm for his whole jedi career from the get go.
I am completely convinced that if he successfully rescued Shmi he would have walked away from the Jedi and gone about his dream of making Tatooine a good place.
Complaints that Anakin flips too quickly in ROTS are missing the thread. The jedi thing didn't abruptly stop working. It was never working. It was never going to work. It was never the job he thought he signed up for and was never going to be.
That's why the ten year timeskip matters. We can't say he didn't give the jedi thing a fair try. And people still say he flipped too quickly. Imagine if he only tried the jedi thing for a couple years.
I think it could have been, and should have been, both. The Clone Wars provide the perfect backdrop for Anakin's story to unfold.
And I agree that George was going for something Shakespearean with Anakin's fall, I just don't think he accomplished it particularly well. It's kind of like how Prime aspired to epic storytelling, but ultimately that amounted to vibes and mood more than substance. The pieces in the PT for Akanin's grand Shakespearean tragedy are there, but they aren't assembled or performed in a satisfying way. And I do blame Lucas for that. It wasn't just his script, it was his direction. Natalie Portman won an Oscar, I can't blame her for Padme coming off like a cardboard cutout.
I can see George wanting to go for that stars-crossed lovers/Shakespearean tragedy angle to their relationship. He's trying. The dialogue so badly wants to be that, but it's just not there. And if it's not that, it's his static shot/reverse shot direction with actors against sets that are mostly green screens filled in with PS3-level CGI environments. The problems just compound.
I respect the vision, I see what he's going for, but too many shortfalls are happening to make it work, IMO.
This is true, but it gets back to my problems with the trilogy. A lot of this is told, not shown. Anakin is formally inducted into the Jedi Order at the end of Ep I at the age of 9. We don't see him again until he's 19. That's a decade worth of character growth and potential insights into his growing frustration with the Jedi Order we don't see, and are only told about. The difference between 9 and 19 might as well be the difference between 5 and 100. Anakin is functionally an entirely different character when we meet him at the start of Ep II compared to the boy we met and got to know in Ep I.
If we have Obi Wan take Anakin under his wing as a 13-14 year old instead in Ep I, we can explore more of his development over the three movies and see his growing disillusionment with the Jedi and Republic and how that leads to him willing to embrace Palpatine and the Dark Side.
One of the best things Disney+ Star Wars has put out was the Dooku half of Tales of the Jedi. Seeing his slow, growing disullusionment with the Republic and Jedi was perfect... and I feel like there could have been a chance to do that with Anakin in the PT, if George didn't insist on a timeline that saw a full ten year time jump.
That's the problem, though. Objectively speaking, Anakin gave the Jedi plenty of time to "work" for him, and it never clicked.... but that isn't successfully conveyed narratively. We meet up with Obi Wan and Anakin at the start of Ep II, and ten years have past since we left them. We get some banter that alludes to adventures they've had that we didn't see, and we later get scenes of Obi Wan scolding Anakin like a frustrated teacher, and the heavy implication that these kinda talks are regular occurances... but because this is conveyed passively after the fact it doesn't hit as hard.
You're right, objectively Anakin didn't turn too quickly in the PT, but it feels like he did because so much of Anakin's formative dissillusionment is left as vague backstory, if it's even mentioned at all. We need to see Anakin wanting to do the right thing, bringing that idealistic vision of the Jedi he has into the order, and seeing how his idealism collides with the realities of how the Order operates. All of that does happen, but we don't see most of it. I'm just saying if we saw more of it, it would help the story that's being told come into its own better.
I agree with a lot of that. I'll also die on the hill that the editing was a major problem. Some of that acting is better than we thought, but was sabotaged by context being removed.
I agree that PT broadly does have a 'show, don't tell' problem, but not here. Anakin doesn't change during that time. That's the problem. Before the time skip, Anakin wants to return to Tatooine and fix things. After the time skip, Anakin wants to return to Tatooine and fix things. The jedi tried to train that out of him but it didn't work. So there's not much story to tell about his growing disillusionment during that period. It was just a stalemate. He was always going to want to return to Tatooine, and their answer was always going to be no. Neither side was going to budge until the day he was going to go rogue and just do it without permission.
Skipping the stalemate is efficient.
Different character, different kind of tragedy, but Dooku does deserve all the fans.
Those offscreen adventures weren't important though. Anakin had one irreconcilable frustration, but that never budged in either direction. He otherwise spent those ten years being a mostly normal jedi not doing anything that really mattered. The early events of AOTC break the ten year stalemate by bringing that one thing to the surface.
... I could bring up a lot of dialog in AOTC that tends to get overlooked but that's still the 'show, don't tell' problem, yeah. The story is there but it is a talky one.
"'sup.""We need to talk. I'm the Phantom of the Opera and you claim to be the Phantom Menace."
"Well which one of us was using 'Phantom' first?"
"I started using it in 1875, with the opening of the Opéra Garnier. And you?"
"A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away."
"...is that before or after mine?"
"I... don't know."
Nice! I will have to check it out!
I prefer the SPECIAL Special edition, where we get the definitive version of the classic Cantina scene:
The only Special Edition I want is a recreation of the early cut. Some of the deleted scenes are still in entirely serviceable condition.
That was neat. It would have been funnier if Han held up a mirror and the blast reflected back.
