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LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
"several tens of thousands of years ago". With all the "myth and legend" talk from the BW and BM cartoons, the "several tens of thousands of years ago" statement actually kinda works rather well
I'd actually say that given how long lived Cybertronians are that even tens of thousands of years isn't enough for the Autobot/Decepticon War to pass into the realm of myth and legend for the Maximals and Predacons.

Nightscream's "eons" remark was likely written with little to no regard for how long an eon actually is- it was just meant to convey "a long time ago."
That being said an "eon" has a flexible definition. It is any significant geological period between five hundred million and one billion years.
So Nightscream's "eons" remark, if taken literally with the plural, could be anywhere from one billion to two billion years. Or if you wanted to fudge it you could say it's something like, say, seven hundred and fifty million years or something like that. "Eon" technically refers to geological eras on Earth so the team is a bit nebulous without Earth's geological record for reference, but these numbers are all acceptable for the term in a broad sense.

My point is that "eons" as a unit of time finally starts dealing with the amount of time you'd need for the Autobots and Decepticons to pass into the realm of myth and legend for the Maximals and Predacons. For a race where you can still have people walking around from ten million years ago and it's not a big deal you'd need to start pushing into the billions to get that kind of distance and historical-mythological drift.
 

Dekafox

Fabulously Foxy Dragon
Citizen
As a counterpoint on that, consider the reliability of memory. If someone is 10 million years old but can only remember the last 1 million except for vague impressions, , then couldn't something that happens 10 million years ago still be a legend? We're all assuming that all the Transformers remember everythign perfectly, and that they have records backing it up. Theyr'e robots so that is a fair assumption. However, technology also breaks down, which was used to good effect with the example of Kup in IDW1, who never bothered with upgrades and as a result they had to do the whole Pretender Shell Body thing for him when he broke down too far. All it would take is for a transfer to not be perfectly 1:1, and maybe some old memories they never really access get garbled, but because they bot doesn't think about that time period, they don't notice. Given enough upgrades or repairs over enough time, and their memories about their past could become as vague as an 80 year old human trying to recall what their typical school day was like when they were 8. Throw in massive wars wiping out records(which we have a great example of in the G1 bots not having records of the Quintessons anymore when they show back up) and you can definitely have legends and myths that happened within the lifetime of living Cybertronians, as they can't even recall themselves how it went other than "that seems right".

300 years is likely still too short for that to have been the transition logically, but you don't need to go to half the age of our solar system for it to make sense either.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
As a counterpoint on that, consider the reliability of memory. If someone is 10 million years old but can only remember the last 1 million except for vague impressions, , then couldn't something that happens 10 million years ago still be a legend?
Counter-counter point- even if that was true you still have guys like Alpha Trion just... around... in the modern era. That was one of my big annoyances with IDW1's treatment of the mythological past on Cybertron. Not only was it not really that long ago comparatively speaking but also Alpha Trion is one of your civilization's founders and he's still around and lucid. How is there any ambiguity to legends and myth???
Like if we had a dude alive and well and we could confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was the Biblical Abraham then I'd like to think we'd collectively go "hey man we have some questions we'd like cleared up."

But this kind of stuff again happens when people apply the pop culture view of human history- static with no real understanding of timescales- to fiction about robots who live millions upon millions of years.

We're all assuming that all the Transformers remember everythign perfectly, and that they have records backing it up. Theyr'e robots so that is a fair assumption.
That's my assumption, I'm afraid. Look, human memory is fallible. And highly subjective to misremembering, false memories, and just good ole' bias. Ironically if this were Go-Bots all of this would make more sense since despite being mostly robotic their brains are organic.
But alas we're dealing with Transformers who have, as far as I know, fully synthetic and robotic brains.

So we have to deal with the reality that machines are capable of storing FAR more information, and doing so perfectly. Not tainted by bias, or a misremembered detail. When you record a video on your phone, your phone doesn't later change it to reflect its mood.

Given that we're dealing with machines I don't think "everyone just forgot" is a satisfying answer.
IDW1 tried to answer this with "information creep," which is basically what you're describing. Technical errors, lost or corrupted memory files, etc.
My issue here is that this was basically introduced to cover for their own internal continuity issues? How does Nova Prime's era both fit the semi-mythological past yet also be recent enough that people from then are still around? Information creep! That's me reading into authorial intent, which maybe isn't fair, but it's how I see the concept. I'm sorry.

It seems likely that while some technological degradation would occur with some- maybe those who didn't undergo upgrades or who experienced damage that caused memory lose- the large scale cultural amnesia that would have to happen just doesn't seem possible to me with a race of machines and the multiple ways machines have of recording history in as objective a way as possible.

Throw in massive wars wiping out records(which we have a great example of in the G1 bots not having records of the Quintessons anymore when they show back up) and you can definitely have legends and myths that happened within the lifetime of living Cybertronians
I'm not so sure. We can only confirm the story of the Seven Sisters of the Pleiades Star Cluster- that there are six sisters but one was driven away- because we are able to roll back the star charts and see that 100,000 years ago the star cluster had seven stars but over time one drifted so close to another that they became indistinguishable from the naked eye. That's an endlessly fascinating look into a bit of primordial human storytelling and mythology we were only able to confirm because we literally rewound the sky. There is no one alive from that era, no written records, nothing but scant artifacts and a story we had to look up and back to even confirm it actually was that old.
So the idea of events that occurred within the lifetime of Cybertronians currently living being the realm of myth and legend just... doesn't sit right.

Like King Arthur- ok. King Arthur was far more recent than the Seven Sisters. IF King Arthur were real the earliest stories about him place him in the 5th or 6th centuries CE. Why don't we have proof of him if he's relatively recent? Well because Britain used to be part of the Roman Empire and when the Western Roman Empire collapsed society collapsed along with it and so Arthur was active during a time when, due to a series of societal collapses and wars, literacy and writing was at an all-time low. We have no contemporary sources of Arthur because if he was a real person there would have been very few people around to actually write his stuff down in his lifetime due to said wars and societal collapse.
But here's the thing... robots don't forget how to read. Take a human who grows up in the chaos of post-Roman Western Europe where the infrastructure and social systems his grandparents enjoyed are just simply gone and that human may go his entire life never learning to read and write. But a robot... is never going to have that problem.

I mean I get your point- a large enough conflict in Cybertronian history could result in the physically destruction of records and maybe even kill off large segments of the populace alive from an earlier age but we're dealing with a technologically advanced robotic race here.

We're just bald monkeys limited by our biology but we're starting to make breakthroughs that push data storage beyond the physical. Cloud technology is just the most latest step in potentially all of our information- or at least backups of it- being stored in spaces beyond the physical. So if we're pushing that frontier I have to think a robotic species that's cracked FTL travel has a firm handle on data storage that won't just be gone forever after a particularly brutal bombing campaign.

Finally... creative freedom.
You tell a story about the Autobot/Decepticon War on Earth and you need to keep it recognizable as present day Earth.
But if you tease out the idea that this war would have to be half a billion to a billion years old to pass into the realm of myth and legend to the Maximals and Predacons you can do SO MUCH that isn't constrained.
Half a billion years- let alone a billion years- is so far into the future that you can tell any story you want. What's humanity like? Is it even recognizable as humanity? What's Cybertron like?

You'd have a totally clean slate to tell pretty much any story you'd want.
 

Lobjob

Well-known member
Citizen
This is great discussion and good stuff, stuff that would have driven me nuts years ago. Its not the best in universe explanation but i just roll with either of these.

BA's 300 years actually mean longer than we think it does cause these years are different (i know, i know)...

The period between 1984 and the 2010s and beyond were/was so wild, cybertronian tech advanced so quickly ALOT actually happened to *make* 300 years seem like a long time...

Or the corrupt, secretive, oppressive Maximal Elders have hid and manipulated the records of history so thoroughly its hard to tell when anything happened before their rule.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
There are some planets (Venus) where a day is longer then a year. So if Blackarachnia was talking about Cybertronian years then that's entirely dependent on how long Cybertron's orbit is.

ofc we all have to acknowledge that even though these are aliens, in contexts like this when they say X number of years they mean Earth years for the sake of the audience.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
There are some planets (Venus) where a day is longer then a year. So if Blackarachnia was talking about Cybertronian years then that's entirely dependent on how long Cybertron's orbit is.

ofc we all have to acknowledge that even though these are aliens, in contexts like this when they say X number of years they mean Earth years for the sake of the audience.
One more thing I forgot to mention was that Dinobot once said the following to Tigatron in "Law of the Jungle":

"If Megatron takes the energon wealth of this world unopposed, he will begin a war. A war that will destroy Cybertron and shatter galaxies, until only one side survives. It has been this way for hundreds of stellar cycles, ever since Autobot and Decepticon first began the Great War."

But, as we've said, "hundreds of years" likewise sounds rather brief for Cybertronian chronology.
 

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
Dinobot said "stellar cycles" as in: one complete rotation of the known galaxy. A solar cycle is a day, a planetary cycle is a planetary year.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
Dinobot said "stellar cycles" as in: one complete rotation of the known galaxy. A solar cycle is a day, a planetary cycle is a planetary year.
A "stellar cycle" is a Cybertronian year. 400 Earth days according to Larry DiTillio.

You're correct about "solar cycle" meaning "day", but "planetary cycle" is not a term that exists in any Transformers media.
 

LBD "Nytetrayn"

Broke the Matrix
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
Black Arcachnia could have just been flippant when she said that...
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
Black Arcachnia could have just been flippant when she said that...
If only all the BW expanded universe fiction that's been made over the years didn't take her claim so literally.

And if only the earlier fandom of the late-90s/2000s didn't also treat a lot of that expanded universe fiction as gospel at the time, as if it were all on the same level of canonicity as the cartoons themselves.
 

PrimalxConvoy

NOT a New Member.
Citizen
I'm not sure why you bothered cross-posting it with the 3P versions; they're literally half the size of the official toy, so it makes sense they're half the price.
They're not half the price, they're far cheaper than that. The cheapest one is 80 dollars. I compared then because they're similar toys. I usually try to compare various versions of the same character when possible. Perfectly logical.
 
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Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
There is too much in BW that is taken FAR too litterally. "Welcome to the Darkside." and now the Predacon ship is "Darksyde"
Tarantulas being a literal "Unicron spawn", too.

Full disclaimer: I actually don't mind him being a Unicron minion during the 2003 Universe fiction since every bad guy in that fiction was (and it'd suit his personality that he'd join up with what he'd consider the winning side and use that to his advantage), but having his creation being literally rooted in Unicron is just... ugh.



Also, backing up to when I previously mentioned that BWII said humanity disappeared from Earth "several tens of thousands of years ago", that's another thing that may not need to be taken as literal as it looks. In Japanese, the number "ten thousand" is the highest base number represented by a single Kanji character, that being 万 (man). To write any number higher, one must combine 万 with other Kanji that represent other base numbers. For instance, in order to write "four million" in Kanji form, that would be 四百万 (shihyaku-man), combining the Kanji for "four" (四, shi), "hundred" (百, hyaku), and 万, essentially multiplying each value to get 4 x 100 x 10,000 = 4,000,000.

Anyway, when BWII said "several tens of thousands", the spoken dialogue meant it as like "several 万". In some cases like this, when the Japanese use 万 to refer to a number of years and don't specify an exact amount, they don't always necessarily mean "10,000" literally, but more simply just mean "an absurdly long amount of time beyond human comprehension". A similar thing happened in The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild when that game spoke of the history of Calamity Ganon as having attacked the kingdom of Hyrule in an event known as the First Calamity that occurred "ten thousand years ago". While the English version of the game gave that exact number of years by translating 万 literally, the Japanese version used 万 in its sometimes vague sense, to illustrate the point how ridiculously long ago that event took place to the point of it feeling more like a legend rather than confirmed history (even though it definitely was since there was plenty of physical evidence of it in the game's present day).

But the point I'm getting at here is, by considering the BWII timeframe of "several 万 years" to be less a literal amount of time and more just a general way of saying "an impossibly long time ago", the timeframe doesn't seem as much at odds with the ridiculous amount of time the Maximals and Predacons would need for the age of the Autobots and Decepticons to have faded away into myth and legend.
 

Dekafox

Fabulously Foxy Dragon
Citizen
A thought also on the whole discussion about the rumors of Ravage being rebuilt, etc: wouldn't this be the Transformer equivalent of Elvis lives(apart form the fact that Ravage actually does)? Or perhaps a better example: how Kamen Riders were treated as an urban myth in Fourze. They quite clearly existed, but no one can confirm the details, so it's treated like Bigfoot and Nessie. I wouldn't be surprised if there were Ravage impersonators unofficially "encouraged" by Ravage himself to keep his little secret while still being able to do wetwork. If he gets spotted or to one of the people he deals with, he's just another impersonator. And if he does reveal himself to someone, who's gonna believe them?

And back on the whole information creep thing, it existed in the toon as well, not just IDW. Besides the Quintessons, remember that Alpha Trion was A3, but that was another fact lost over however long the timeframe was. And to use your example, if the biblical Abraham was around and people did try asking him questions, and all he could do was shrug his shoulders, people would eventually decide he's just a kooky old man, which as I recall is how Alphatrion was looked at. Just because you can ask the questions doesn't mean they can or will answer them, and may even leave more questions than answers when all is said and done. And that assumes they don't pull a Highlander or vampire and just change identities every so often, so people might know a Alpha Trion but they don't know if he's THE Alpha Trion. And he ain't talking(assuming he even knows himself at this point).

And as far as data preservation and backups etc - even the cloud is not immune to that. Backups don't get tested, data gets buried under other data, maybe some of it even gets deliberately destroyed or replaced. The cloud is just a fancy name for someone else's computer, and data there can corrupt or be lost just as easily as someone typing rm -rf / and bumping enter before they finish typing the directory path. There's plenty of stories of technicians accidentally dropping entire massive database tables by accident. Information that seemed useless now might be erased and then people want it later - see for example the lost Dr Who episodes as a real-world example, where the BBC assumed no one would be interested in it at the time and didn't take care to preserve it. Even today, examples of lost media exist, and I don't mean studios deleting completed works for tax writeoffs. Add in a worldwide war that drains the planet of energy to the point that you're basically abandoning it just to survive.... and for that matter in that sort of environment preserving technology documentation is going to have a much higher priority than the census records from the 30000th year of Nova Prime's administration. One bombing run may not take out important records, but thousands or hundreds of thousands of years of wars can certainly do a lot of damage to records over time. A few here and a few there still adds up.

I also don't think that you have to talk about billions of years for creative freedom. Look how fast the Transformers changed once they came in contact with humans in G1. *masters, Pretenders, etc. Look how fast humanty's own tech has changed in the past hundred years compared to the past 1000. Just because things were static for 10 million years doesn't mean they'll be static for the next 10 million, particularly if there's information loss and cataclysmic wars happening for thousands of years during that time period. (ANd you know, now I really want to see a Cybertronian archeologist equivalent, trying to piece things together in that sort of environment!) There's plenty of creative ways to get that creative freedom within merely geologic timeframes or less.

Additionally there's the audience problem. Get too large, and your audience's eyes will glaze over, or they'll just stop caring - just like how people tend to not really grasp the magnitude of difference between modern millionaires and billionaires. Just throwing larger numbers at it, once you pass a certain threshold, isn't going to help.

Again, yes, 300 is too little, but there ought to be a middle ground here to work with that's not reaching the point of galactic timescales.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
I guess what all of this really boils down to is the original absurdity of the G1 comics and cartoon making the Autobots and Decepticons able to live for millions of years in the first place. The whole reason the Ark was stated to crash-land on Earth "four million years ago" was to allow the ship to crash at a point in history long enough before the northwestern United States had any people in it so that the ship would remain completely undisturbed by humanity until Mount St. Hilary erupted in 1984, woke up the Ark's computer, and reactivated the Autobots and Decepticons on board. That backstory didn't need a four-million-year-long time gap to make that happen. All that was needed was a gap of about 12,000 years since it was a little less than that prior to 1984 when any Native Americans in the northwestern U.S. first turned up in that part of the continent. Granted, 12,000 is still a pretty big number, but nowhere nearly as ungodly HUGE as 4 million. It's actually 333.33 times less that amount.
 
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Agent X

Kreon Bastard
Citizen
There is too much in BW that is taken FAR too litterally. "Welcome to the Darkside." and now the Predacon ship is "Darksyde"
I half expected someone to take the line from a Tripredicus council member.....

"Megatron? I thought we heard the last of that RENEDAGE?"

.....and run with it, making BW Megatron a universe crossing Go-Bot. Would certainly validate his lack of concern for erasing himself from history.
 

Shadewing

Well-known member
Citizen
I half expected someone to take the line from a Tripredicus council member.....

"Megatron? I thought we heard the last of that RENEDAGE?"

.....and run with it, making BW Megatron a universe crossing Go-Bot. Would certainly validate his lack of concern for erasing himself from history.

That would require someone caring about Go-Bots in the 90's.
 


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