Thread of Thoughts, Questions (and Maybe Even Answers) That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread

[LordGigaIce]

I just didn't care for people going "oh wow it's neat to see more G1y live action designs but I can't let myself enjoy them because the wrong people will be happy."

There's a whole toxic element to this discussion that I'd like to think we're past but deep down I know we're not.

Don's try at a "movie-ized G1" style was indeed short-lived, but idk if he was doing more than the then-unsubtitled G1 ongoing at the time. This was also notably a time when the art style consistency was all over the place, with some tie-ins ignoring Don's redesigns in favor of matching with the then-current toyline or whatever. So it's not like those redesigns of his really became the IDW standard for any period. Although iirc that's where stealth bomber Megs, who's been done by Hasbro in that form (and that he's called out), is from.

I mean... yeah. It was all over the place. Which is my point. What people mean when they say "the IDW art style" or "IDW aesthetic" is a specific sort of aesthetic that only got nailed down relatively late in IDW1's thirteen year run.

And my whole point was that if IDW took that long to find the style that defined it well... maybe we shouldn't be writing SkyBound off only two years into their run.

 

[lastmaximal]

If we got a whole G1 line informed by Guido's work as much as T30 was informed by Milne's at the time, I'd be very happy.

 

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

This is one that I'm not sure if it needs its own thread or not. If there's some sort of vote for one or the conversation just carries on for more than a page, I guess, I'll spin it off.

But I was thinking earlier, and got to wondering...

Was bringing back Optimus Prime a waste?

We all know the story by now: Hasbro sees Optimus Prime as product and not a character, and decides to off him in the major motion picture, so all the children in the audience can see the lasers rip through his torso REALLY, REALLY BIG-like. Traumatized Timmys' mothers all ream out Hasbro, possibly further incensed by finding out they watched too much of the movie to get a refund by that point, and Hasbro fast-tracks Prime to return to TVs the world over as quickly as possible. Happy end, right?

But is it really?

Because in the end, did it really help anything?

So, Optimus was back on TV. Fantastic. He wouldn't get any more screen time until "The Rebirth" nine months later, and that was only three episodes before they basically scrapped the TV show.

And there was no toy during that time. Had to wait for the '88 assortment, as I recall, and hey, they made a big Prime Puppet Pal to help push it on TV, but with no all-new stories to be told there...

And by that point, Transformers toy sales were already on the decline for that era, yeah?

So, if they'd just kept the course with Rodimus, I wonder if things would have really turned out any worse for the line. He could slot into Optimus's place in "The Rebirth" pretty seamlessly, they'd have saved money on fast-tracking two Toei-produced episodes, and maybe they'd be down one Targetmaster in the assortment? (Or give us Targetmaster Rodimus Prime?)

And in Japan, they killed him off almost as fast as they brought him back, so they clearly saw no value in it. Might've been easier for them to just skip Return of Optimus Prime there as well, though we wouldn't get the cool Double Convoy moment. But that's really about the only loss there. That, maybe Hot Rod's Matrix Quest in the early part. But something tells me they could have found other ways to fill the time without feeling too burdened.

The biggest impact, I think, might have come in the Marvel comics. After OP died there, they made Grimlock leader, which was certainly... a choice. This wasn't even the Furman era yet, mind you, and they clearly had no interest in contriving a way to use Rodimus (lucky for the Brits). Then we followed Fortress Maximus as leader of a separate troop of Autobots when they showed up, and conveniently enough, they met and squared off right about the time Hasbro was like "Yep, bring him back."

So, we got Optimus back, large and in charge for almost the rest of the run (died in 76, returned in 80). I guess if not him, maybe Fortress Maximus would have been in charge, since Scorponok stuck around until 75. Maybe. Who knows?

But outside of that... I don't know. Did OP extend the shelf life of the brand by coming back? Or was it fated to go the way it went regardless of who was carrying the Matrix at that point?

 

[lastmaximal]

I think ultimately it was a very powerful demonstration of the significance of IP. The loss and backlash would have demonstrated that too, but their caving really solidified it -- showing that a company would go out of its way to undo something. Especially given the context was before just rebooting a property was commonplace.

And I think there was some success in it, despite it inevitably not being enough to rejuvenate the franchise to the degree they needed.

For me there's just some added small sense of relief that the end of the US series and such happened on Optimus' watch and not Rodimus', although of course fans (especially the more casual) think or assume the latter anyway.

...then again, in Japan Rodimus DID go on to blow up their home planet, so who knows what might have happened if Optimus didn't come back.

 

[Sabrblade]

then again, in Japan Rodimus DID go on to blow up their home planet,

Scorponok did that.

 

[lastmaximal]

Well, that's the last time I study Cybertronian history from articles in that fanzine by @.NotMyMatrixBearer420.

 

[Sabrblade]

Well, that's the last time I study Cybertronian history from articles in that fanzine by @.NotMyMatrixBearer420.

I think I remember some of those articles. They were the ones that made all those wacky claims about Japanese TF stuff, right?

"Dark Nova revived the REAL Megatron into Super Megatron in order to assassinate that total imposter Galvatron."

"Metrotitan is totally Metroplex as a zombie."

"There is totally a Space Mafia and the Crossformers work for it."

"Unicron totally possessed the dead body of BWII Galvatron when he was resurrected in Beast Wars Neo."

"Those Blentron guys from BW Neo were literally made of Unicron's energy, so he absorbed them into himself in order to complete his resurrection. Sucks to be them!"

 

[LordGigaIce]

But outside of that... I don't know. Did OP extend the shelf life of the brand by coming back? Or was it fated to go the way it went regardless of who was carrying the Matrix at that point?

I think the whole thing is a case of Hasbro constantly playing catchup.

They decide to kill off Optimus. Bad move, kids are sad/mad, parents write in to complain. Hasbro has to shift gears, but season 3, starring Rodimus Prime, is already well under way. So they have to work in Optimus coming back. Problem is that the damage from the movie is already done and cartoon production lead times mean that they can't even try to salvage this thing with a quick Optimus return. They just have to sort of run with Rodimus and Friends and hope they can get kids caring about by the end when Optimus comes back.

Only the kids really don't like Rodimus, the new season fails to catch on, viewership and sales drop, and by the time Hasbro's fix can be implemented, it's already too late.

It didn't save the franchise, but I don't think anything could by that point. I'm not keen to revisit the Rodimus discussion, but just based on an objective reading of things... he wasn't popular and kids didn't accept him in large enough numbers to make the new direction work. At that point the dye was cast, and bringing Optimus back at the end of a season most of the audience had already tuned out for was too little too late.

In the end, dying was the best thing to happen to Optimus. Had he not died, had he stayed on, the franchise probably has a very similar trajectory. Maybe the decline is a bit delayed, maybe there's a full season four, but the shelf life of the original run was coming to an end anyway. Optimus sticking around would have faded into obscurity.
But by dying like he did, it solidified him as a Big F'ing Deal, and the franchise's failures could (partially unfairly) get shoved onto Rodimus.

A very inaccurate reading from a casual fan would be "Optimus was around and it was awesome, then he died and that loser Rodimus took over and the show sucked. Then some stuff with animals happened idk but then Optimus came back and the UT was very popular, and then he was in the billion dollar movies."

The way that it worked out helped Optimus' "status" a great deal. Had he not died, he'd be associated with the lesser back end of the original run.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

Basically they made kids nostalgic before it was even over.

Well played, Hasbro.

 

[Sabrblade]

They unwittingly introduced Geewhining to the brand.

 

[LordGigaIce]

They unwittingly introduced Geewhining to the brand.

Eh I'm a Pokemon fan so I can say with some certainty that would have happened anyway.

 

[Agent X]

I think if the Rodimus toy wasn't ass, he wouldn't have gotten so much jive.

Without the trailer, Optimus was still a pretty sweet truck with a satisfying series of changes, and even losing his fists weren't a deal breaker.

Rodimus looses his camper, he's a jive nothing, with a nothing conversion scheme, and losing his fin- the one piece of his sillioute that can count as 'iconic'- makes him a poor Transformer, to say nothing about an even poorer replacement for Optimus.

 

[LordGigaIce]

I think if the Rodimus toy wasn't ass, he wouldn't have gotten so much jive.

Without the trailer, Optimus was still a pretty sweet truck with a satisfying series of changes, and even losing his fists weren't a deal breaker.

Rodimus looses his camper, he's a jive nothing, with a nothing conversion scheme, and losing his fin- the one piece of his sillioute that can count as 'iconic'- makes him a poor Transformer, to say nothing about an even poorer replacement for Optimus.

This might be a hot take, but I don't think any of the 1986 figures really work. At least not as well as the toys imported from Diaclone, MicroChange, and other assorted toylines. It certainly took Hasbro a bit to get a handle on doing this themselves.

How much that impacted things though... I'm not sure. Rodimus' toy being a downgrade compared to Optimus (or even Ultra Magnus in the same product line) did him no favours, but I think being the unwanted replacement for Optimus, who could be viewed as having caused Optimus' death, was a bigger death knell.

I'm blatantly stealing from Pointless Hub's retrospective on the G1 movie, but Ron Friedman absolutely wrote Hot Rod as being at least somewhat responsible for Optimus' death, being a mistake he'd have to learn to move past as part of his hero's journey as well as add some complexity to this new leader character.
Which is all well and good from a writing and character perspective, but maybe isn't the best idea when you're trying to sell a toy to kids upset that this guy caused the last toy they really liked to die.

 

[Sabrblade]

I'm blatantly stealing from Pointless Hub's retrospective on the G1 movie, but Ron Friedman absolutely wrote Hot Rod as being at least somewhat responsible for Optimus' death, being a mistake he'd have to learn to move past as part of his hero's journey as well as add some complexity to this new leader character.
Which is all well and good from a writing and character perspective, but maybe isn't the best idea when you're trying to sell a toy to kids upset that this guy caused the last toy they really liked to die.

Not to mention the fact that, aside from Hot Rod's line of "Optimus... forgive me," the notion of Hot Rod being partly responsible for Optimus's death and that being a mistake he'd have to learn to move past as part of his hero's journey... is never even factored into the plot of the movie itself. You could say Optimus's voice saying "Arise, Rodimus Prime" was a sort of payoff to this with Optimus sorta forgiving Hot Rod, but even that's a bit of a stretch since Hot Rod never feels any personal guilt over Optimus's death after his "forgive me" line that comes immediately after Optimus sends Megatron and the Decepticons retreating. There's no point between that line and the "arise" line where we actually see Hot Rod feeling at fault for Optimus's death and then growing out of his guilt as part of his journey, because there's too much else going on for the movie to focus on the personal journey of its main hero (and the most of that we do get focuses on his relationship with Kup more than anything else, as they start off butting heads with each other before growing to respect each other more by the end).

There was, at least, a little more of Hot Rod feeling at fault for Optimus's death in the original first-draft script, but not only is the scene of his guilt punctuated by Tanker (proto-Kup) basically telling him to man up and get over it, but the script ends with Hot Rod... not becoming Rodimus Prime, making his guilt feel like there's no payoff at all.

 

[lastmaximal]

I think the toy being a beautifully colored plank mainly denied Rodimus one more redeeming element, but the damage was already done. An amazing toy might have swayed a few but he'll always be a meme as the guy who got Optimus killed, as the Not Optimus.

There's certainly some merit to using the movie to give him a redemption arc. His bio does establish him as a naive and idealistic kid dreaming of heroism, which works okay with his rash actions in the movie and request to Optimus to be forgiven. But it basically ends there and he just... Happens to insist that the matrix can do what they need it to, then blunders his way into Unicron and to face Galvatron. There are things they could have done to improve that, not least letting him interact meaningfully with Optimus on the latter's deathbed.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

I have to experience this Rodimus Prime toy. I understand everything that's wrong with it, but I don't hate how it looks. Every time they make a new Rodimus toy with a worse vehicle mode I respect the original more and more.

 

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

Kingdom was pretty damn good, though.

This might be a hot take, but I don't think any of the 1986 figures really work. At least not as well as the toys imported from Diaclone, MicroChange, and other assorted toylines. It certainly took Hasbro a bit to get a handle on doing this themselves.

I thought Takara made those, too?

 

[Sabrblade]

I thought Takara made those, too?

He meant Hasbro designed them. The Diaclone and Micro Change molds were both designed and engineered by Takara, but the new molds beginning in 1986 were Hasbro designs that Takara engineered, which is what was different about them.

 

[LordGigaIce]

Kingdom was pretty damn good, though.

Kingdom is probably the best a Rodimus Prime is going to get as a modern figure. At least that G1 design. Still, it has a few niggling issues. I'd love to see what the rumoured SS '86 repaint/retool looks like.

Not to mention the fact that, aside from Hot Rod's line of "Optimus... forgive me," the notion of Hot Rod being partly responsible for Optimus's death and that being a mistake he'd have to learn to move past as part of his hero's journey... is never even factored into the plot of the movie itself. You could say Optimus's voice saying "Arise, Rodimus Prime" was a sort of payoff to this with Optimus sorta forgiving Hot Rod, but even that's a bit of a stretch since Hot Rod never feels any personal guilt over Optimus's death after his "forgive me" line that comes immediately after Optimus sends Megatron and the Decepticons retreating. There's no point between that line and the "arise" line where we actually see Hot Rod feeling at fault for Optimus's death and then growing out of his guilt as part of his journey, because there's too much else going on for the movie to focus on the personal journey of its main hero (and the most of that we do get focuses on his relationship with Kup more than anything else, as they start off butting heads with each other before growing to respect each other more by the end).

There was, at least, a little more of Hot Rod feeling at fault for Optimus's death in the original first-draft script, but not only is the scene of his guilt punctuated by Tanker (proto-Kup) basically telling him to man up and get over it, but the script ends with Hot Rod... not becoming Rodimus Prime, making his guilt feel like there's no payoff at all.

It really feels like Friedman's "Hot Rod is partially is responsible for Optimus' death, and has to grow beyond it as part of his hero's journey" idea was something a lot of people liked conceptually, but got hacked away bit by bit via Dille's rewrites.

We see the beginnings of it- Hot Rod's intervention allowing Megatron to land the killing blow and Hot Rod asking for forgiveness- and we see the ending- Optimus' spirit giving Rodimus his endorsement signifying forgiveness and Rodimus' growth- but we see nothing connecting those two.

Which is a telltale sign of something meant to be a bigger deal that got hacked away via successive script retoolings. The beginning and end stayed because they're vital to the overall story, but the rest got excised because no one past Ron Friedman was really interested in that idea. Dille had his OCs to focus on gosh darnit!

 

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

"Metrotitan is totally Metroplex as a zombie."

Meant to reply to this the other day, but...

Wasn't it supposed to be that he was grown out of Metroplex's arm?

(I thought TFWiki had something on this, but I couldn't find it now, if it does.)