Why was there a lack of fanfare for the 20th anniversary of a Beast Wars and could have this have caused Primal to win the prime fan vote?

Dekafox

Fabulously Foxy Dragon
Citizen
I've never really cared whose fault it was. The show is a mess.

If I blame anyone, it's whoever wanted 26 episodes in the first place. Beast Wars season 2 was able to tell a good story in 13 episodes, but it was only able to do that because season 1 had 26 episodes. Those early "filler" episodes (I hate that they get characterized as such) were immensely important. They let the writers explore and develop the characters and setting before building up to the big events. A 13 episode season 1 with just the plot episodes would have ended with a Rattrap that's either still a jerk or stopped being a jerk way more abruptly. There's a lot of little things like that.

Maybe the Beast Wars crew could have made a good 13 episode season 1 for Beast Machines, but a new crew deserved the same chance to get a handle on things before they tried their big ideas. Beast Machines has a ton of interesting ideas but season 1 burns through them about as quickly as they're introduced. We've barely met Tankor before they drop the very heavy hints that he's Rhinox. It's too fast. On the other hand, it manages to be repetitive, which is quite a feat for a serialized 13 episode season. Megatron starts out interesting and menacing, but he becomes hard to take seriously anymore once you notice the Maximals are visiting his house every other night and safely leaving.

It's also obvious that the writers needed more time to talk to each other and make sure the Maximals didn't have wildly different memories from one episode to the next. To be fair, this is much more obvious on a binge watch than it was at the time. But still. They wanted to tell a tightly serialized story but also winged it.

And the endgame is still stupid no matter whose idea it was. Cybertron has been completely conquered, the planet is patrolled by nothing but drones guided by a single mind, and the solution to this is... dirt. Really. That's what's wrong with Megatron's Cybertron? There's nothing else wrong with this picture? The inhabitants of Cybertron have been ripped out of their bodies and imprisoned, and the alternative to this is that they need partially fleshy bodies instead. Obnoxiously ugly fleshy bodies. This is what's needed. The only possible alternatives are a planet running as a single pure machine with no free will, and a technorganic planet with seemingly deliberately hideous inhabitants with free will.

No. The series does not make it even slightly clear why its technorganic endgame is a good or needed step in Transformers evolution. Take G1 and Beast Wars out of it. It's not really fair to look at a sequel completely in a vacuum, but let's pretend that it's fair. You do not need to care one iota about G1 to not like Beast Machines' ending. It fails to explain why you should like it. It's simply not justified that this is the only alternative to Megatron's single elegant machine. It was possible to be a mechanical Cybertronian with free will before Megatron took over. It is possible to be handsome mechanical Vehicon with a spark and free will, aside from the safequards Megatron added. It is possible to be a mechanical diagnostic drone and have a seemingly full range of personality. The technorganic revolution is not evidently needed to fix what's wrong with Megatron's Cybertron. It's a tangent.

This is not how to write a series. There has to be some reason to want what the heroes want. Beast Machines' attitude is "Just want it because the Oracle wants it." Okay maybe the Oracle does know but the problem is I don't. In Beast Wars I wanted to see the Maximals make it home because I cared about them as characters. In Beast Machines I'm supposed to want them to bring about the technorganic revolution because their supervisor says so. You're not my supervisor.

You know, if they had made the techno-organic bodies immune to spark removal, that would have removed a lot of the justification problems with "why technoorganicism other than because we said". It would turn it into a "Never again" kind of thing. Their beast modes hiding the spark signature could have been a natural outgrowth of that too.
 

UndeadScottsman

Well-known member
Citizen
Even in classic G1 there was an undercurrent in the second half that organic+cybertronian=better that the sum of its parts

Headmasters, Targetmasters, Powermasters, Pretenders.. Even Actionmasters had the tagline of being "better, faster, more alive" than a normal transformer, so it's not like that's a new sentiment that came out of nowhere in Beast Machines. Even S3 of the cartoon had them uncovering powerful "techno-organic" monsters that the Quintessons made before they designed the Transformers.

The narrative is there if you want to do the groundwork. Beast Machines, unfortunately, do not do the groundwork instead opting for more flashy references like a big key to vector sigma/plasma energy chamber fight.
 

CoffeeHorse

*sip*
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
Everyone who got to experience being a Vehicon seemed to enjoy it, while those who got to be technorganic gave mixed reviews.
 

Soundwave2.0

Member
Citizen
The script for Shell Game issue 1 may have had Megatron make a hole in the Bulkhead by breathing fire.
Could have they still have been able to use the shuttle to get to cybetron ?
 
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Nevermore

Well-known member
Citizen
Hey Soundwave2.0, there's this fella named ooo-baby who might be very interested in your questions.
 

MrBlud

Well-known member
Citizen
Even in classic G1 there was an undercurrent in the second half that organic+cybertronian=better that the sum of its parts

Headmasters, Targetmasters, Powermasters, Pretenders.. Even Actionmasters had the tagline of being "better, faster, more alive" than a normal transformer, so it's not like that's a new sentiment that came out of nowhere in Beast Machines. Even S3 of the cartoon had them uncovering powerful "techno-organic" monsters that the Quintessons made before they designed the Transformers.

The narrative is there if you want to do the groundwork. Beast Machines, unfortunately, do not do the groundwork instead opting for more flashy references like a big key to vector sigma/plasma energy chamber fight.

Yep.

Despise it though I do, it’s very clear from G1-BW-BM that Primus is slowly guiding them towards technorganic integration. Presumably so they can better interact with the wider Universe.

Beast Machines is a fairly mediocre series on its own merits. The animation is dated though not as badly as BW and there’s a lot of fetch quest stuff. It’s an *abysmal* follow up to the Beast Wars cartoon. At least the version that exists in this Universe. At its worst, it’s at least watchable. Which is a low bar the next three series after it never managed to clear…
 

LBD "Nytetrayn"

Broke the Matrix
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
What do you mean Botcon was hitting the undo button?
Hm, it's been so long since I read that stuff-- what I was able to at the time, at least.

Main things I remember are that in addition to Primal's Maximals, there were like three other groups running around: Dinobots (the BM subline), Mutants, and Wreckers, I believe.

And I think the Wreckers found out the Oracle was some sort of shell program around Vector Sigma that was guiding Primal to do the organic thing to weaken the planet for a Quintesson invasion?

Someone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Anyway, thinking more on it, "undo" probably isn't the right term... more like change the circumstances around everything?

I didn't much care for what BM did at the time, so I was on board with what they were doing, but I don't know how I feel about it in the here and now.
 

Soundwave2.0

Member
Citizen
It would have basically been like "The Gathering" but instead set after the final episode and with the show cast coming back to Earth to interacting with the non-show characters. Simon Furman put up the script for the unproduced first issue of Shell Game and it continued right after the events of "Ain't No Rat". So it would have acted as a sort of "Season 4" to the cartoon, and likely would have led back up to the beginning of Beast Machines had it been allowed to continue.

When it was canceled, Furman basically reworked the story and recycled it for IDW as The Gathering, only now set before the final episode and with the show cast not playing any major roles in the story, instead giving all the focus to the non-show characters.
Why not keep it the same for IDW ?
 

Nevermore

Well-known member
Citizen
Why not keep it the same for IDW ?
I have a suggestion for you: Go to a convention. Talk to Simon Furman. Ask him on Twitter. Whatever.

Don't repeatedly ask us what was going on in his head. We. Do. Not. Know. We're not Simon Furman, and I doubt that anyone here is a telepath either.
 

Agent X

Kreon Bastard
Citizen
Just discovered, when a user is set to 'ignore' threads that user creates does not appear on the board. But can appear on the main forum page if it was the latest post.

Such a random piece of info to randomly put in a random thread yesssir.
 

Soundwave2.0

Member
Citizen
I have a suggestion for you: Go to a convention. Talk to Simon Furman. Ask him on Twitter. Whatever.

Don't repeatedly ask us what was going on in his head. We. Do. Not. Know. We're not Simon Furman, and I doubt that anyone here is a telepath either.
Mostly he has not replied to me on Twitter.
 


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