With swords, axes and guns.
Why was there a lack of fanfare for the 20th anniversary of a Beast Wars and could have this have caused Primal to win the prime fan vote?
- Thread starter Soundwave2.0
- Start date
Beast Machines is better than the show it's a follow up of.
How big were Optimal Optimus and Transmetal 2 Megatron compared to the Autobots and the Decepticons?
Small. You can watch the show and see for yourself just how small.
Was "Optimal Megatron" bigger than Optimal Optimus even before he merged with the Spark's?
You're going to get a lot of anecdata, for two reasons:
1) Every respondent is going to be giving their own perspective, and
2) The online Transformers fandom is a lot more fragmented post-2020 than it was circa 2000. (Which is a good thing, in one respect -- no consensus means no widespread groupthink or cults of personality, but good luck setting up any serious poll unless you have Hasbro's own resources... and even then you might only get a partial view.)
Anyway. Beast Machines came out at a really weird/bad time in my life. The first episode I even saw was the "Everybody hates Rattrap" story, and while everyone was written out-of-character (except, perhaps, Nightscream, who was a still-new addition) it caught my interest to keep going.
But looking back? Well, it was an interesting experiment. The stylized animation is a bit jarring at times, but less so than Mainframe's occasionally sneaking Warner-physics into a 3-D Transformers cartoon back in Beast Wars. The Cybertron setting does free them up from some of their limitations, and enables them to play to the same visual strengths they developed with Reboot. The writing is... okay at best, the voice actors are largely still doing good jobs (and one would go on to do Ron Moore's BSG, so there's that), and I could finally like Silverbolt as something other than comic relief once he was back in the cast.
It's not something I'm in a hurry to revisit, it was a fairly closed story (the Wreckers add-ons notwithstanding), but it turned out not to be the End of the Line many of us feared by journey's end.
The more I think about it, Beast Machines might be the one TF cartoon I've binge-rewatched more than any others.
Of course, a lot of that may have to do with wiki-related work I did in trying to map out all the old 3H BotCon fiction in relation to how it fit with Beast Machines's timeline, but still.
Of course, a lot of that may have to do with wiki-related work I did in trying to map out all the old 3H BotCon fiction in relation to how it fit with Beast Machines's timeline, but still.
Beast Machines was the first TF show I saw whole, I seen some of G1 and a bit of Beast Wars but because of the fact they weren't on any kids channels back in the day, it was Beast Machines that became the one I saw all of, its approch was more of the Maximals winning the Beast Wars, only to loose at the last moment because Megatron wasn't fully retrained or at least kept inside of the shuttle they were using and Megatron escaping into the past altered their future and the vrius that been unleashed had caused them to have malfuctions in their memories and in someways they kind of went back to their original mission of learning about new places and things, thou it just so happened to be on Cybertron instead of another planet, of course, you got to wonder, if the mission had gone to plan, what would they done with Rampage's stasis pod, would they dumped it onto a gas planet or a moon, thou the biggest mystery from Beast Machines is, how did Waspinator get back to Cybertron without a space ship?
Waspinator flew under his own power (after using trees to launch himself into space)
Remember there was quite a bit of time in-between the prehistoric earth of Beast Wars and the future of Beast Machines (which was already several centuries ahead of even our own time). Also Cybertron and Earth were fairly close to one another (Cybertron passed through Earth's asteroid belt 4 million years prior and then was later summoned into Earth's orbit during the 80's.)
Why is Transmetal ll Megatron he only Transmetal to come out these days ?
It's a popular design that really wasn't well served by the toy we had.
In a TFCON interview ,on YouTube, Simon said that Beast Wars comics should be tied to the Beast wars show.
So what if when he did Beast Wars at IDW he was free to tie it into Beast Machines as it was not going to tie in to IDW G1?
If Beast Machines was not well received would Dreamewave really want it to be the future of their story?
Maybe Shell game was supposed to be a alternate path after Beast Wars season 3.
Last edited:
Why are you so deeply invested in all these different "what if" scenarios?
I’ve long said Beast Machines, on its own merits, is a VERY good series. But it will NEVER escape the shadow of Beast Wars, which was more accessible, “more fun”, and better managed (and thus, more successful).
And I’ve been saying for YEARS that about the only Titan I’d drop full price, day one, would be a Grand Mal Megatron.
Something that a lot of folks may not know is that a lot of the things people disliked about Beast Machines came not originally from Bob Skir, Marty Isenberg, Marv Wolfman, or any of the people making the show, but were instead the wishes and mandates placed upon the show by Hasbro itself!
As stated in these videos:
According to what Skir said in these videos, Hasbro wanted BM to be all spiritual and religious, which Skir was initially against and tried to talk them out of it, but they kept insisting. He came up with several ideas that he thought would have snapped Hasbro out of their craziness, but no, they kept liking and approving those ideas that led BM to be "a religious epic novel for television". Skir was sure they would eventually change their minds and realize how nuts they were sounding, but they didn't and he did his best to give them what they wanted.
It was even Hasbro who wanted Beast Machines to be, and I quote, "as much of a departure from Beast Wars as Beast Wars was from the original Transformers shows," like a fresh start soft reboot to better enable new viewers to jump on. And, Hasbro wanted to do something different at the time. "If you're going to rethink something, rethink it differently," is what Hasbro was thinking back then. This is why Hasbro brought in new people for BM instead of keeping on Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio.
The character designs were likewise made outside of Skir's control and without any of his input. When he was writing episodes with what he was told about the characters in mind, he hadn't yet been shown the character design for Rattrap until about five episodes into the series. And when he was finally shown what Rattrap was gonna look like... he didn't like it. He felt that Rattrap's BM design was so goofy-looking. In fact, he says that it was even designed to be goofy on purpose: "What Asaph Fipke said at the time was they wanted to give this tough-talkin' guy a really really goofy robot mode," and that it was completely counterpoint to what Skir was writing up to that point.
Same with Nightscream. He'd created the character as a John Connor type, but when he finally saw the design, he felt the "ankle wings" look made him look too much like a skateboarder. And yet, these were the designs that he had no choice but to work with, since he had no say on the matter.
Hasbro even at one point asked Skir to give Beast Machines a third season (which I guess would explain why there were so many toys at the end of the line that either never saw release or were carried over into RID'01; Hasbro was probably hoping for one more year to release them). But Skir put his foot down on that one and said NO! Beast Machines had been pitched as a "26-episode novel for television". He knew at the time that some fans loved it and other fans hated it with a passion, and felt that a third season would be a disservice to both the story and to the fans on both sides. Skir would have had to pad out the story in order to drag it out into a third season, and knew that doing so would have upset both the fans who liked the show and the fans who wanted it to end. Two seasons was the deal and he didn't want to make it twice as longer just for the sake of making it longer.
He talks about much more in that third video, but the above is all the stuff relevant to the things that Hasbro mandated to the BM writing staff.
EDIT: Digging around, this old FAQ from 1999 further mentions Hasbro's insistence on adding the spiritual stuff to the show.
As stated in these videos:
According to what Skir said in these videos, Hasbro wanted BM to be all spiritual and religious, which Skir was initially against and tried to talk them out of it, but they kept insisting. He came up with several ideas that he thought would have snapped Hasbro out of their craziness, but no, they kept liking and approving those ideas that led BM to be "a religious epic novel for television". Skir was sure they would eventually change their minds and realize how nuts they were sounding, but they didn't and he did his best to give them what they wanted.
It was even Hasbro who wanted Beast Machines to be, and I quote, "as much of a departure from Beast Wars as Beast Wars was from the original Transformers shows," like a fresh start soft reboot to better enable new viewers to jump on. And, Hasbro wanted to do something different at the time. "If you're going to rethink something, rethink it differently," is what Hasbro was thinking back then. This is why Hasbro brought in new people for BM instead of keeping on Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio.
The character designs were likewise made outside of Skir's control and without any of his input. When he was writing episodes with what he was told about the characters in mind, he hadn't yet been shown the character design for Rattrap until about five episodes into the series. And when he was finally shown what Rattrap was gonna look like... he didn't like it. He felt that Rattrap's BM design was so goofy-looking. In fact, he says that it was even designed to be goofy on purpose: "What Asaph Fipke said at the time was they wanted to give this tough-talkin' guy a really really goofy robot mode," and that it was completely counterpoint to what Skir was writing up to that point.
Same with Nightscream. He'd created the character as a John Connor type, but when he finally saw the design, he felt the "ankle wings" look made him look too much like a skateboarder. And yet, these were the designs that he had no choice but to work with, since he had no say on the matter.
Hasbro even at one point asked Skir to give Beast Machines a third season (which I guess would explain why there were so many toys at the end of the line that either never saw release or were carried over into RID'01; Hasbro was probably hoping for one more year to release them). But Skir put his foot down on that one and said NO! Beast Machines had been pitched as a "26-episode novel for television". He knew at the time that some fans loved it and other fans hated it with a passion, and felt that a third season would be a disservice to both the story and to the fans on both sides. Skir would have had to pad out the story in order to drag it out into a third season, and knew that doing so would have upset both the fans who liked the show and the fans who wanted it to end. Two seasons was the deal and he didn't want to make it twice as longer just for the sake of making it longer.
He talks about much more in that third video, but the above is all the stuff relevant to the things that Hasbro mandated to the BM writing staff.
EDIT: Digging around, this old FAQ from 1999 further mentions Hasbro's insistence on adding the spiritual stuff to the show.
I've never really cared whose fault it was. The show is a mess.
If I blame anyone, it's whoever wanted 26 episodes in the first place. Beast Wars season 2 was able to tell a good story in 13 episodes, but it was only able to do that because season 1 had 26 episodes. Those early "filler" episodes (I hate that they get characterized as such) were immensely important. They let the writers explore and develop the characters and setting before building up to the big events. A 13 episode season 1 with just the plot episodes would have ended with a Rattrap that's either still a jerk or stopped being a jerk way more abruptly. There's a lot of little things like that.
Maybe the Beast Wars crew could have made a good 13 episode season 1 for Beast Machines, but a new crew deserved the same chance to get a handle on things before they tried their big ideas. Beast Machines has a ton of interesting ideas but season 1 burns through them about as quickly as they're introduced. We've barely met Tankor before they drop the very heavy hints that he's Rhinox. It's too fast. On the other hand, it manages to be repetitive, which is quite a feat for a serialized 13 episode season. Megatron starts out interesting and menacing, but he becomes hard to take seriously anymore once you notice the Maximals are visiting his house every other night and safely leaving.
It's also obvious that the writers needed more time to talk to each other and make sure the Maximals didn't have wildly different memories from one episode to the next. To be fair, this is much more obvious on a binge watch than it was at the time. But still. They wanted to tell a tightly serialized story but also winged it.
And the endgame is still stupid no matter whose idea it was. Cybertron has been completely conquered, the planet is patrolled by nothing but drones guided by a single mind, and the solution to this is... dirt. Really. That's what's wrong with Megatron's Cybertron? There's nothing else wrong with this picture? The inhabitants of Cybertron have been ripped out of their bodies and imprisoned, and the alternative to this is that they need partially fleshy bodies instead. Obnoxiously ugly fleshy bodies. This is what's needed. The only possible alternatives are a planet running as a single pure machine with no free will, and a technorganic planet with seemingly deliberately hideous inhabitants with free will.
No. The series does not make it even slightly clear why its technorganic endgame is a good or needed step in Transformers evolution. Take G1 and Beast Wars out of it. It's not really fair to look at a sequel completely in a vacuum, but let's pretend that it's fair. You do not need to care one iota about G1 to not like Beast Machines' ending. It fails to explain why you should like it. It's simply not justified that this is the only alternative to Megatron's single elegant machine. It was possible to be a mechanical Cybertronian with free will before Megatron took over. It is possible to be handsome mechanical Vehicon with a spark and free will, aside from the safequards Megatron added. It is possible to be a mechanical diagnostic drone and have a seemingly full range of personality. The technorganic revolution is not evidently needed to fix what's wrong with Megatron's Cybertron. It's a tangent.
This is not how to write a series. There has to be some reason to want what the heroes want. Beast Machines' attitude is "Just want it because the Oracle wants it." Okay maybe the Oracle does know but the problem is I don't. In Beast Wars I wanted to see the Maximals make it home because I cared about them as characters. In Beast Machines I'm supposed to want them to bring about the technorganic revolution because their supervisor says so. You're not my supervisor.
If I blame anyone, it's whoever wanted 26 episodes in the first place. Beast Wars season 2 was able to tell a good story in 13 episodes, but it was only able to do that because season 1 had 26 episodes. Those early "filler" episodes (I hate that they get characterized as such) were immensely important. They let the writers explore and develop the characters and setting before building up to the big events. A 13 episode season 1 with just the plot episodes would have ended with a Rattrap that's either still a jerk or stopped being a jerk way more abruptly. There's a lot of little things like that.
Maybe the Beast Wars crew could have made a good 13 episode season 1 for Beast Machines, but a new crew deserved the same chance to get a handle on things before they tried their big ideas. Beast Machines has a ton of interesting ideas but season 1 burns through them about as quickly as they're introduced. We've barely met Tankor before they drop the very heavy hints that he's Rhinox. It's too fast. On the other hand, it manages to be repetitive, which is quite a feat for a serialized 13 episode season. Megatron starts out interesting and menacing, but he becomes hard to take seriously anymore once you notice the Maximals are visiting his house every other night and safely leaving.
It's also obvious that the writers needed more time to talk to each other and make sure the Maximals didn't have wildly different memories from one episode to the next. To be fair, this is much more obvious on a binge watch than it was at the time. But still. They wanted to tell a tightly serialized story but also winged it.
And the endgame is still stupid no matter whose idea it was. Cybertron has been completely conquered, the planet is patrolled by nothing but drones guided by a single mind, and the solution to this is... dirt. Really. That's what's wrong with Megatron's Cybertron? There's nothing else wrong with this picture? The inhabitants of Cybertron have been ripped out of their bodies and imprisoned, and the alternative to this is that they need partially fleshy bodies instead. Obnoxiously ugly fleshy bodies. This is what's needed. The only possible alternatives are a planet running as a single pure machine with no free will, and a technorganic planet with seemingly deliberately hideous inhabitants with free will.
No. The series does not make it even slightly clear why its technorganic endgame is a good or needed step in Transformers evolution. Take G1 and Beast Wars out of it. It's not really fair to look at a sequel completely in a vacuum, but let's pretend that it's fair. You do not need to care one iota about G1 to not like Beast Machines' ending. It fails to explain why you should like it. It's simply not justified that this is the only alternative to Megatron's single elegant machine. It was possible to be a mechanical Cybertronian with free will before Megatron took over. It is possible to be handsome mechanical Vehicon with a spark and free will, aside from the safequards Megatron added. It is possible to be a mechanical diagnostic drone and have a seemingly full range of personality. The technorganic revolution is not evidently needed to fix what's wrong with Megatron's Cybertron. It's a tangent.
This is not how to write a series. There has to be some reason to want what the heroes want. Beast Machines' attitude is "Just want it because the Oracle wants it." Okay maybe the Oracle does know but the problem is I don't. In Beast Wars I wanted to see the Maximals make it home because I cared about them as characters. In Beast Machines I'm supposed to want them to bring about the technorganic revolution because their supervisor says so. You're not my supervisor.
There were also those visions and flashbacks from the Oracle in Season 1 in which Optimus was shown what Cybertron was like as a lush organic world in the distant ancient past before the first Transformers came about and turned the planet into a metallic world. These visions compared that change to Megatron's takeover, casting both in the same negative light almost as if to suggest that the first Transformers were just as evil as Megatron in their changing the originally-organic planet into the inorganic mechanical world of Cybertron.
Which, admittedly, is kinda nuts when you think about how Cybertron being a metallic world was always its thing, and now here comes along Beast Machines saying that Cybertron's whole thing is suddenly a bad thing.
Then the series would backtrack on that by saying that, no, Optimus misunderstood the Oracle's visions (but with their very haunting and disturbing imagery, who could blame him?) and that it's instead all about balance. The planet being completely changed from its original natural state to a radically-different artificial one in the distant past threw everything out of whack and out of balance, and now, eons later, Megatron's current actions have suddenly made everything even worse and more out of balance, to the point that his actions were the last straw needed to finally kick off the beginning of an eons-old prophecy that would, at long last, lead to everything finally being put back in order and all made right with the world.
But then, wouldn't that mean just returning the planet to its originally organic state instead of a fusion between it and the mechanical state that was forced upon it all those ages ago? Well, maybe the planet's original imbalance from back when that first change happened was slowly adjusted over time, but was never able to fully correct itself, meaning it was still out of balance for most of Cybertron's exist. But by the time of Megatron's takeover, the planetary balance had become so used to its mechanical nature that it became at least partially reliant on it to survive.
Megatron's takeover just tipped the scales even further, to the point that the only way to restore the balance for good was to bring back the planet's original organic nature AND combine with the technological nature that had been dominant for so long, fusing the two on a molecular level to finally shift things back to a proper planetary balance.
And now my head kinda hurts after typing all that.
Which, admittedly, is kinda nuts when you think about how Cybertron being a metallic world was always its thing, and now here comes along Beast Machines saying that Cybertron's whole thing is suddenly a bad thing.
Then the series would backtrack on that by saying that, no, Optimus misunderstood the Oracle's visions (but with their very haunting and disturbing imagery, who could blame him?) and that it's instead all about balance. The planet being completely changed from its original natural state to a radically-different artificial one in the distant past threw everything out of whack and out of balance, and now, eons later, Megatron's current actions have suddenly made everything even worse and more out of balance, to the point that his actions were the last straw needed to finally kick off the beginning of an eons-old prophecy that would, at long last, lead to everything finally being put back in order and all made right with the world.
But then, wouldn't that mean just returning the planet to its originally organic state instead of a fusion between it and the mechanical state that was forced upon it all those ages ago? Well, maybe the planet's original imbalance from back when that first change happened was slowly adjusted over time, but was never able to fully correct itself, meaning it was still out of balance for most of Cybertron's exist. But by the time of Megatron's takeover, the planetary balance had become so used to its mechanical nature that it became at least partially reliant on it to survive.
Megatron's takeover just tipped the scales even further, to the point that the only way to restore the balance for good was to bring back the planet's original organic nature AND combine with the technological nature that had been dominant for so long, fusing the two on a molecular level to finally shift things back to a proper planetary balance.
And now my head kinda hurts after typing all that.
Last edited:
The idea of other Transformers universes that weren't just variations on G1 was still pretty new at the time, with RID and just then, Armada. Beast Machines simply was the future of G1 at that point.
'Sides, BotCon was actively hitting the "undo" button as fast and hard as they could at about that time, and I'm not sure that was received much better.
Honestly, I'd have loved a third season, but apparently not the one he envisioned.
Cybertron went through such a radical, unprecedented change that I didn't want what was there padded out, I want a coda; I want to see what comes after.
What is this new world like? How do Cybertronians respond to now being technorganic? What's next
The Watcher has really fallen off in recent. Now, instead of peering into alternate universes to see what possibilities exist beyond the boundaries of our own reality, he's just asking a bunch of geeks on a messa
What do you mean Botcon was hitting the undo button?