This is generally the consensus, is that it feels more like an upscaled 2-parter then an actual movie.
Star Trek General Discussion
- Thread starter SHIELD Agent 47
- Start date
This is generally the consensus, is that it feels more like an upscaled 2-parter then an actual movie.
Which was a criticism at the time, but has become praise as we get further and further from having TNG on TV.
You can watch TNG on Pluto TV.
Well, the aliens were basically just old people, as you see how they look on the planet.
She did a few times, there is a youtube clip showing all the times that she did on TNG. This was really just to setup them finally getting back together and the tub scene. I loved the scene later where he says smooth as an android's bottom.
My favorite thing about this film is that Geordi gets his vision.
So the last two films, you have to remember were very rough for Picard. Losing his family in the first film and then dealing with the borg again in the second. They were very hesitant to pitch this idea to Sir Patrick Stewart as they thought that he wouldn't go for a film where he is overthehill and him feeling more youthful due to the briar patch. Stewart loved it though. He was a bit tired of Picard being sour or angry, and wanted a chance for the character to cut loose a little.
The whole setup with a malfunctioning data was great to me. The singing was a neat way of getting him to trust him.
I loved the ending where the Riker maneuver is coined.
"He wouldn't!"
Enterprise E getting closer on a collision course.
Captured Worf sitting on the enemy bridge, "Yes. He would."
One more movie and I go with Discovery and Picard. I already know I'll be sad when that Borg kid who grows up gets killed
Watch Picard before Discovery, as it picks up right where the last film leaves off, and its a much better series overall.
I liked Insurrection better the second time I saw it. I think there have only been two. But...
It isn't an insurrection. It is just insubordination.
And they totally screwed up their McGuffin. If you are seriously wounded and trapped where people cannot get to you, the last thing you want to do is slow down time.
It isn't an insurrection. It is just insubordination.
And they totally screwed up their McGuffin. If you are seriously wounded and trapped where people cannot get to you, the last thing you want to do is slow down time.
I'm sure the Riker maneuver of sitting down was used by fans first. How did the fans feel that their term was used for something else tho?
I'll see Nemesis tomorrow, so I have time to watch Picard Discovery while mourning for the loss of Lower Decks in two days.
I'll see Nemesis tomorrow, so I have time to watch Picard Discovery while mourning for the loss of Lower Decks in two days.
Oh I did see Next Gen Nemesis. Funny to see Janeway on screen (Voyager is showing already?). They keep pulling Worf out of DS9 to join their adventures? Weird that Riker shaved but whatever. Dang, that wasn't Lore? I thought it was Lore somehow.
Anyhow, this was more exciting for me, even tho I was surprised to find out that Tom Hardy was the bad guy?!?!? I kinda sorta don't like seeing his pouty lips, haha. But have to admit, he was an interesting enough villain. Just weird that everyone was probably suppose to be surprised at his reveal that he and Picard were suppose to look alike. I was wondering why people were a bit shocked during his first face reveal; like, what are they seeing that I'm missing?
Didn't expect Data to die here. It kinda happened so fast. Maybe he could have teleported the computer console instead, haha. But, yeah, the not Lore could be the new Data or something.
Nice that the Romulons are making peace but I guess Lower Decks shows that it didn't really take.
I'd put Nemesis and First Contact as better than Generations and Insurrection. First Contact would be higher if only the Earth side part matched the urgency in space vs the Borg.
---
So I'm to watch all season of Picard first before watching Discovery? Or do I watch them parallel?
Anyhow, this was more exciting for me, even tho I was surprised to find out that Tom Hardy was the bad guy?!?!? I kinda sorta don't like seeing his pouty lips, haha. But have to admit, he was an interesting enough villain. Just weird that everyone was probably suppose to be surprised at his reveal that he and Picard were suppose to look alike. I was wondering why people were a bit shocked during his first face reveal; like, what are they seeing that I'm missing?
Didn't expect Data to die here. It kinda happened so fast. Maybe he could have teleported the computer console instead, haha. But, yeah, the not Lore could be the new Data or something.
Nice that the Romulons are making peace but I guess Lower Decks shows that it didn't really take.
I'd put Nemesis and First Contact as better than Generations and Insurrection. First Contact would be higher if only the Earth side part matched the urgency in space vs the Borg.
---
So I'm to watch all season of Picard first before watching Discovery? Or do I watch them parallel?
Watch one then the other. I’d recommend Picard, since it follows up on plot threads from Nemesis.
Nemesis came out in 2002, well after DS9 ended and just after Voyager ended, so Janeway was just a nod to the fans. Worf was noted to still be a diplomat as per the end of DS9, but happens to tag along with the rest of the TNG crew when they find B4.
Nemesis was where the franchise really showed its age, though. I remember getting the feeling that the actors were going through the motions, just kind of phoning it in. It didn’t help that Picard and Data were seemingly the main characters to the point where the rest of the crew barely had any screen time at all, relatively speaking.
Nemesis came out in 2002, well after DS9 ended and just after Voyager ended, so Janeway was just a nod to the fans. Worf was noted to still be a diplomat as per the end of DS9, but happens to tag along with the rest of the TNG crew when they find B4.
Nemesis was where the franchise really showed its age, though. I remember getting the feeling that the actors were going through the motions, just kind of phoning it in. It didn’t help that Picard and Data were seemingly the main characters to the point where the rest of the crew barely had any screen time at all, relatively speaking.
Nemesis is set after the end of DS9 (which of course ended even before Voyager); there are a few novels showing Worf's brief diplomatic career (established in DS9) before he returns to Starfleet.
Mainly that the leader of the Remans was visibly human rather than Reman or even Romulan.
It's also possible that a few of them might've seen Picard's Academy picture and spotted the resemblance.
There's also some behind-the-scenes stuff, as (IIRC) the director wasn't familiar with the franchise and made a bunch of minor changes that the actors themselves had to gently correct on set (at one point, there's a conference room scene that was planned to include a few never-before-seen officers as crowd filler, and people had to point out that the named characters are the entirety of the ship's command staff).
It was definitely a troubled production. They wanted the Khan/Kirk dynamic with Picard and Shinzon, but it felt way too forced and unearned. (Wouldn’t be the last time that they tried copying TWOK). Picard has had to face the decisions of his youth before, but Nemesis just kinda brushed past any introspection. They just rushed to build to a showdown. Plus, the audience knew that the day would be won. The only surprise was the death of Data, but even that seemingly came out of nowhere. Combined with the poor reception of Enterprise, it ended up damaging the brand and led to the reboot.
for all its faults, I do like how Picard tied up the Data threads that Nemesis started.
As mentioned by the others, Voyager had just got home, and this served as the only epilogue that we got for the characters for a while. I am glad that Janeway got to be an admiral at home for a while.
Yeah, they just keep brining him back, but at least this time he was there for the wedding, which is a believable reason as opposed to Insurrection where he just shows up. Although First Contact is probably the best reason for him to be there, fighting the Borg on the Defiant.
Well, Troi liked it better shaved.
Lore is safely dismantled and locked away elsewhere.
Well, he is what Picard would have looked like at 20 years old, as oppossed to the 50 year old man that we have become used to. You have to remember that Picard was the athlete, fly by the seat of your pants, break all the rules, get all the ladies and then head to the next star system kind of guy. So a young Tom Hardy is probably what he looked like, even though a young Patrick Stewart obviously didn't.
They kind of left that open for us, and its a major plot point of Picard, so that Is all I will say on it for now.
Wait to you see what happens to them in Picard.
So your list is
1. Nemesis
2. First Contact
3. Generations
4. Insurrection
? Interesting. I can see that. personally, mine is:
1. First Contact
2. Generations
3. Insurrection
4. Nemesis
Although the last two can swap, as I haven't seen either of them in a while and I could honestly use a refresh on all four films.
Definitely, watch Picard first. Even if you don't like the first two seasons, watch it just to get to season 3.
What's interesting with Nemesis is that, despite everything, it actually works surprisingly well with an obscure plot thread from some of the early "Numbered-era" novels.
One of the early novels has Spock (around the time of the "Unification" two-parter) noting cultural signifiers and historical trends and concluding that the Romulan Empire would collapse within the next 50 to 100 years (which is why he's working so hard toward unification). Of course, Spock could not have predicted the outbreak of the Dominion War (which both facilitated Shinzon's rise to power and undermined the Senate's traditional authority [by revealing that non-Romulans weren't the uncivilized barbarians that the Senate described them as]). This clearly accelerated the timetable a bit.
The Reman revolution in Nemesis is just the first step in the fulfillment of Spock's prophecy.
One of the early novels has Spock (around the time of the "Unification" two-parter) noting cultural signifiers and historical trends and concluding that the Romulan Empire would collapse within the next 50 to 100 years (which is why he's working so hard toward unification). Of course, Spock could not have predicted the outbreak of the Dominion War (which both facilitated Shinzon's rise to power and undermined the Senate's traditional authority [by revealing that non-Romulans weren't the uncivilized barbarians that the Senate described them as]). This clearly accelerated the timetable a bit.
The Reman revolution in Nemesis is just the first step in the fulfillment of Spock's prophecy.
While I still don't buy Hardy as a younger Picard, I liked their dynamic. Shinzon was also humanized by his loyal Viceroy, who I liked, despite the horrible thing he did with Troi. But she got a good retaliation in tho.
My rating is actually more
First Contact equal Nemesis
Insurrection equal Generations
I think, knowing that...
Oh, realizing that Data died made me glad to actually see alternate purple Data appear in Lower Decks. He was still a Data, since prime Data couldn't make a real appearance anymore, so closest the Lower Decks could get, aw.
My rating is actually more
First Contact equal Nemesis
Insurrection equal Generations
I think, knowing that...
... made me realize that Nemesis not feeling like the other films made it stand out a little more. From the horrific mass murder at the start to the (kinda dumb) dune buggy is a desert made to look like an alien planet with an exposed colored filter something or another, haha
Oh, realizing that Data died made me glad to actually see alternate purple Data appear in Lower Decks. He was still a Data, since prime Data couldn't make a real appearance anymore, so closest the Lower Decks could get, aw.
That’s one way of looking at it.
For those who loved Lower Decks, some of you might be interested in something similar.
First, some history: by the 1990s, Pocket Books' lines of licensed "numbered" Star Trek tie-ins were wildly successful, so series editor John J. Ordover was willing to experiment with "one-shots," crossover books, miniseries, and regular "big event" hardcovers.
In 1997, Ordover and frequent Trek novelist Peter David launched Star Trek: New Frontier --the first (but not the last) novel series not based on a TV series. Using characters from David's Young Adult Starfleet Academy books (another of Ordover's successful experiments), a few obscure TNG extras, and several new characters created for the series, New Frontier spanned 21 novels, a short story anthology, two graphic novels, and numerous crossovers.
(sorry about the edit; I couldn't find a good copy of the cover art)
It's not perfect; written in the 90s, it is a product of its time. Some of the humour is. . . dated, and Peter David (who wrote all but the "No Limits" short story collection) can be an acquired taste, but it is a solidly dramatic series (and would lay the groundwork for the tightly-interconnected post-2000 "relaunch" continuity), and is very much Star Trek as inspired by the likes of Stripes, MASH, McHale's Navy, Police Academy, and Sgt. Bilko.
(Clipped from the Almighty Star Trek Lit-verse Reading Order Flow Chart by Thrawn.)
Conveniently, the novels are laid out much like a TV series, with books 1-8 spanning the "first season" (ending on a cataclysmic cliffhanger), 9-14 as S2, 15-18 as S3 (picking up after a three-year timeskip), and books 19-21 ("The Returned") as a big series-ending movie. The series spans 2373 (season 5 of DS9, season 3 of Voyager, and just after the events of "First Contact") to 2381 (the timeframe of Lower Decks, or well into the non-canon "Relaunch" timeline).
The Captains Table is part of a series of stand-alones (each book focused on one captain), Double Time is a graphic novel, and Double Helix is a crossover (though each book is pretty stand-alone, as multiple different crews each tackle one aspect of the crisis). Gateways is a more tightly-plotted crossover, with several novels and a short story collection to wrap it up. "No Limits" is another short story anthology, and there are other shorts in the "Tales of the Dominion War," "Tales From the Captain's Table," and Mirror Universe anthologies ("Obsidian Alliances" and "Shards and Shadows"). Turnaround is a five-part comic series tying the "Prime" and Mirror Universe storylines together.
These are the voyages of the Starship Excalibur; Starfleet's dumping grounds for its oddballs, misfits, washouts, and people generally too weird even for Starfleet.
Its current mission; to patrol Sector 221-G, which up until recently was the Thallonian Empire. The Empire has collapsed, and Excalibur is needed to step in and offer assistance and humanitarian aid, becoming a beacon of order and security in this lawless frontier.
Captain Mackenzie Calhoun
Born M'k'n'zy of Calhoun on Xenex, a world under occupation by the brutal Dantari, M'k'n'zy led his people in a revolution when he was still a teenager, and Captain Picard (then of the USS Stargazer) convinced him to try joining Starfleet. Mac's Starfleet career was. . . tumultuous, and he was eventually court-martialled for decking a superior officer. Picard (now on the Enterprise) intervened again, convincing Starfleet that Calhoun is the perfect choice to command the Excalibur.
Commander Elizabeth Shelby
Most well-known from "Best of Both Worlds," Starfleet assigned Shelby believing that an ambitious by-the-book martinet would be able to curb Calhoun's more reckless tendencies. They were wrong. Shelby and Calhoun had a pre-existing history, but broke up when Mac was court-martialed. Later in the series, Shelby becomes Captain, then Admiral --which lines up with her appearance in season 3 of Picard.
Burgoyne 172
Burgoyne (s/he, hir) belongs to the nonbinary Hermat species (I know, but society wasn't quite ready for The Discourse in 1997), but is an outcast from hir peoples' insular and repressive culture. Burgy's gender situation is not handled with the utmost delicacy, but s/he's never made the butt of jokes (at least, no more than every other character from time to time), being more likely to serve as the source of wacky hijinks and sarcastic commentary.
Zak Kebron
Zak is a Brikar --the same species as Prodigy's Rok-Tahk. David invented the character, and the Brikar themselves, as part of his Starfleet Academy books, making Zak the first-ever representative of the now-canon species. Zak is a comically stoic grump for most of the early stories, though he eventually undergoes a metamorphosis that makes him more verbal.
Si Cwan
Former crown prince of the Thallonian Empire, Si Cwan has three goals; find and rescue his sister, exact vengeance on those who brought down the empire, and restore peace to his people --and he is willing to use anything and anyone to achieve these goals. He comes aboard the Excalibur as an "ambassador" and local guide, and immediately becomes a sort of best-frenemy to Kebron.
Selar
Dr. Selar appeared in ony one episode of TNG (S02E06, "The Schizoid Man"), but was referred to/addressed off-camera in several others, and had a respectable presence in numerous tie-in novels and comics. Selar is a tragic figure, with PTSD relating to a dead husband, and a troubled family history that makes her emotional control sometimes questionable.
Robin Lefler
Another minor TNG character, Lefler is mainly known for dating Wesley Crusher in that one ep with the mind-controlling video game (she also appeared in "Darmok" but didn't do much except follow Geordi around). New Frontier makes her a regular character, and goes into more detail about her odd family life (odder than even she realizes, it turns out, with an unexpected connection to TOS --and even to Strange New Worlds).
Mark McHenry (as depicted in the Starfleet Academy books, which is the only pic that really captures his essence)
McHenry is. . . weird. Like, "falls asleep at his console, wears his uniform inside out, has long conversations with a patch of bulkhead on deck 13" weird. Despite his often-concerning eccentricities, McHenry is a supernaturally gifted helmsman. . . literally, as it turns out (and even anticipates a plotline shared by a late-appearing Lower Decks character).
Soleta
Another character from David's Starfleet Academy novels, Soleta is an unusually angry Vulcan (actually, being angry is pretty usual for her). Soleta's emotional control is even more tenuous than Selar's, though Soleta is more. . . explosive. Like many characters on this ship, Soleta has a deep, dark secret, only revealed in "season 2."
Ed Jellico
Every band of misfits needs an obstructive old man to complain about them, and that role in New Frontier is played by now-Admiral Edward Jellico, famous from that one episode of TNG and the thousand memes it launched. Notably, he also appears as an Admiral in Prodigy, so that part at least lines up with canon.
Also, that thing about Calhoun punching out a superior officer? That was Jellico. He had it coming.
As the series goes on, it brings in more colourful characters, including Si Cwan's questionably-sane sister, an immortal TOS-series character, a couple of time-displaced characters from The Animated Series, Mac's bastard (in every sense) son, and even a hyperintelligent Mugato.
(That's hyperintelligent by Mugato standards, which is why he's still an Ensign.)
Tracking down hardcopies is a challenge, but everything should be available as ebooks. While New Frontiers (like the rest of the decades-long Relaunch timeline) was overwritten by the modern canon established by Picard, it remains a fascinating look at Lower Decks before Lower Decks was a thing.
And now, a moment of Zak.
First, some history: by the 1990s, Pocket Books' lines of licensed "numbered" Star Trek tie-ins were wildly successful, so series editor John J. Ordover was willing to experiment with "one-shots," crossover books, miniseries, and regular "big event" hardcovers.
In 1997, Ordover and frequent Trek novelist Peter David launched Star Trek: New Frontier --the first (but not the last) novel series not based on a TV series. Using characters from David's Young Adult Starfleet Academy books (another of Ordover's successful experiments), a few obscure TNG extras, and several new characters created for the series, New Frontier spanned 21 novels, a short story anthology, two graphic novels, and numerous crossovers.
(sorry about the edit; I couldn't find a good copy of the cover art)
It's not perfect; written in the 90s, it is a product of its time. Some of the humour is. . . dated, and Peter David (who wrote all but the "No Limits" short story collection) can be an acquired taste, but it is a solidly dramatic series (and would lay the groundwork for the tightly-interconnected post-2000 "relaunch" continuity), and is very much Star Trek as inspired by the likes of Stripes, MASH, McHale's Navy, Police Academy, and Sgt. Bilko.
(Clipped from the Almighty Star Trek Lit-verse Reading Order Flow Chart by Thrawn.)
Conveniently, the novels are laid out much like a TV series, with books 1-8 spanning the "first season" (ending on a cataclysmic cliffhanger), 9-14 as S2, 15-18 as S3 (picking up after a three-year timeskip), and books 19-21 ("The Returned") as a big series-ending movie. The series spans 2373 (season 5 of DS9, season 3 of Voyager, and just after the events of "First Contact") to 2381 (the timeframe of Lower Decks, or well into the non-canon "Relaunch" timeline).
The Captains Table is part of a series of stand-alones (each book focused on one captain), Double Time is a graphic novel, and Double Helix is a crossover (though each book is pretty stand-alone, as multiple different crews each tackle one aspect of the crisis). Gateways is a more tightly-plotted crossover, with several novels and a short story collection to wrap it up. "No Limits" is another short story anthology, and there are other shorts in the "Tales of the Dominion War," "Tales From the Captain's Table," and Mirror Universe anthologies ("Obsidian Alliances" and "Shards and Shadows"). Turnaround is a five-part comic series tying the "Prime" and Mirror Universe storylines together.
These are the voyages of the Starship Excalibur; Starfleet's dumping grounds for its oddballs, misfits, washouts, and people generally too weird even for Starfleet.
Its current mission; to patrol Sector 221-G, which up until recently was the Thallonian Empire. The Empire has collapsed, and Excalibur is needed to step in and offer assistance and humanitarian aid, becoming a beacon of order and security in this lawless frontier.
Captain Mackenzie Calhoun
Born M'k'n'zy of Calhoun on Xenex, a world under occupation by the brutal Dantari, M'k'n'zy led his people in a revolution when he was still a teenager, and Captain Picard (then of the USS Stargazer) convinced him to try joining Starfleet. Mac's Starfleet career was. . . tumultuous, and he was eventually court-martialled for decking a superior officer. Picard (now on the Enterprise) intervened again, convincing Starfleet that Calhoun is the perfect choice to command the Excalibur.
Commander Elizabeth Shelby
Most well-known from "Best of Both Worlds," Starfleet assigned Shelby believing that an ambitious by-the-book martinet would be able to curb Calhoun's more reckless tendencies. They were wrong. Shelby and Calhoun had a pre-existing history, but broke up when Mac was court-martialed. Later in the series, Shelby becomes Captain, then Admiral --which lines up with her appearance in season 3 of Picard.
Burgoyne 172
Burgoyne (s/he, hir) belongs to the nonbinary Hermat species (I know, but society wasn't quite ready for The Discourse in 1997), but is an outcast from hir peoples' insular and repressive culture. Burgy's gender situation is not handled with the utmost delicacy, but s/he's never made the butt of jokes (at least, no more than every other character from time to time), being more likely to serve as the source of wacky hijinks and sarcastic commentary.
Zak Kebron
Zak is a Brikar --the same species as Prodigy's Rok-Tahk. David invented the character, and the Brikar themselves, as part of his Starfleet Academy books, making Zak the first-ever representative of the now-canon species. Zak is a comically stoic grump for most of the early stories, though he eventually undergoes a metamorphosis that makes him more verbal.
Si Cwan
Former crown prince of the Thallonian Empire, Si Cwan has three goals; find and rescue his sister, exact vengeance on those who brought down the empire, and restore peace to his people --and he is willing to use anything and anyone to achieve these goals. He comes aboard the Excalibur as an "ambassador" and local guide, and immediately becomes a sort of best-frenemy to Kebron.
Selar
Dr. Selar appeared in ony one episode of TNG (S02E06, "The Schizoid Man"), but was referred to/addressed off-camera in several others, and had a respectable presence in numerous tie-in novels and comics. Selar is a tragic figure, with PTSD relating to a dead husband, and a troubled family history that makes her emotional control sometimes questionable.
Robin Lefler
Another minor TNG character, Lefler is mainly known for dating Wesley Crusher in that one ep with the mind-controlling video game (she also appeared in "Darmok" but didn't do much except follow Geordi around). New Frontier makes her a regular character, and goes into more detail about her odd family life (odder than even she realizes, it turns out, with an unexpected connection to TOS --and even to Strange New Worlds).
Mark McHenry (as depicted in the Starfleet Academy books, which is the only pic that really captures his essence)
McHenry is. . . weird. Like, "falls asleep at his console, wears his uniform inside out, has long conversations with a patch of bulkhead on deck 13" weird. Despite his often-concerning eccentricities, McHenry is a supernaturally gifted helmsman. . . literally, as it turns out (and even anticipates a plotline shared by a late-appearing Lower Decks character).
Soleta
Another character from David's Starfleet Academy novels, Soleta is an unusually angry Vulcan (actually, being angry is pretty usual for her). Soleta's emotional control is even more tenuous than Selar's, though Soleta is more. . . explosive. Like many characters on this ship, Soleta has a deep, dark secret, only revealed in "season 2."
Ed Jellico
Every band of misfits needs an obstructive old man to complain about them, and that role in New Frontier is played by now-Admiral Edward Jellico, famous from that one episode of TNG and the thousand memes it launched. Notably, he also appears as an Admiral in Prodigy, so that part at least lines up with canon.
Also, that thing about Calhoun punching out a superior officer? That was Jellico. He had it coming.
As the series goes on, it brings in more colourful characters, including Si Cwan's questionably-sane sister, an immortal TOS-series character, a couple of time-displaced characters from The Animated Series, Mac's bastard (in every sense) son, and even a hyperintelligent Mugato.
(That's hyperintelligent by Mugato standards, which is why he's still an Ensign.)
Tracking down hardcopies is a challenge, but everything should be available as ebooks. While New Frontiers (like the rest of the decades-long Relaunch timeline) was overwritten by the modern canon established by Picard, it remains a fascinating look at Lower Decks before Lower Decks was a thing.
And now, a moment of Zak.
This reminds me that I kinda really want them to bring back the J'naii from TNG. I feel like having one as a main character would be a good way to explore gender issues without it being specifically trans issues. They'd be kinda the Spock/Data of the series.
Really loved the New Frontier series. I have most of them and I really should give them a re-read sometime. If I can ever pull myself away from my current Cosmere obsession, that is.
