Harris-Walz / Dems

Rhinox

Rhinox

too old for this
Citizen
Axaday said:
Senate Democrats are risking a shutdown protesting DOGE. Their heart is in the right place, but not their brains. I am guessing they will pass it in time and are just hitting the brakes so they can talk about it, but it does ring pretty true when Mike Johnson steps to the camera and says these same Democrats berated Republicans last year for risking a shutdown. (The reverse is true too, of course!)

They always talk about who will get blamed for a shutdown and I am rarely confident what the public will say. But if the Democrats think Trump is afraid to risk a shutdown, they need to think again. He's doing a shutdown whether they cooperate or not.
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I take issue with your initial statement. The GOP holds majorities in both sides of Congress and they hold the presidency. The democrats aren't risking one damn thing. If the GOP can't rally their votes, that is their problem, not the democrats. They (and you) don't get to hang any shutdown around the necks of the democrats because the GOP literally cannot figure out how to actually govern.

Seriously, I've seen similar statements in the news and it is infuriating. Republicans have the bloody majority. How is any shutdown the fault of democrats? They don't owe the GOP their cooperation. Especially when Trump is destroying the bedrock of american governance.
 

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
Rhinox said:
I take issue with your initial statement. The GOP holds majorities in both sides of Congress and they hold the presidency. The democrats aren't risking one damn thing. If the GOP can't rally their votes, that is their problem, not the democrats. They (and you) don't get to hang any shutdown around the necks of the democrats because the GOP literally cannot figure out how to actually govern.

Seriously, I've seen similar statements in the news and it is infuriating. Republicans have the bloody majority. How is any shutdown the fault of democrats? They don't owe the GOP their cooperation. Especially when Trump is destroying the bedrock of american governance.
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The GOP does have the majority in the Senate, but that isn't what they need. They need 60 votes to pass this.
 
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wonko the sane?

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
It's the democrats fault because they won't help the people destroying the country and its economy by passing a continuing resolution which will help destroy the country and its economy.

Obviously.
 

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
I don't know if that is meant to be "at" me. These things are tough. If there is a shutdown and people are feeling some pain, they want to know whose fault it is. It is ALWAYS because the parties disagree and think the other is being unreasonable, but what does the public think? When that question is easy to answer a shutdown doesn't happen. The Democrats' message on this is harder than the Republicans', I think, because they are attacking obliquely. They aren't holding out because of what the continuing resolution itself does. Not passing the continuing resolution doesn't accomplish their objective. If they stand their ground and let the government shut down, it is really hard to go on TV and say it is because the Republicans were going to shut down part of the government and they want to prevent that. It is a lot easier for the Republicans to go on TV and say they were going to shut down some things that they don't think need to be done, but they certainly didn't want to shut down the entire government. I think if the Democrats draw a line in the sand here they will regret it. So I hope they are just drawing it out for maximum exposure. There will be much better places to draw lines.
 

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
It feels, at least on my corner of social media, like the Democrats might be trying to overplay a hand when they should be more focused. Trump is doing 6 Things:

1) Golfing
2) Pushing common Republican issues
3) Pushing more uncommon issues more than usual
4) Breaking norms
5) Betraying America values
6) Breaking laws

He's allowed to do 4 to 5 of those things. Democrats are acting like he is only allowed 1 to 2 of those. I wish the Democrats would gather their strength to fight him on #5. People get hurt everywhere after 1, but 5 is where the most, longest-term damage will be done.
 
Rhinox

Rhinox

too old for this
Citizen
Axaday said:
The GOP does have the majority in the Senate, but that isn't what they need. They need 60 votes to pass this.
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They can change the rules to remove the filibuster. Balls in their court. Again, they don't need democrats, they need to figure out how to be a party that actually governs.

I'm unwilling to give one inch to their excuses. Nor will I accept any blame when they hold both houses and the presidency. Learn to govern. Figure it the hug out. And if what your demagogue wants is so terrible that some of your own party won't vote for it, take it as a sign.

He's allowed to do 4 to 5 of those things. Democrats are acting like he is only allowed 1 to 2 of those. I wish the Democrats would gather their strength to fight him on #5. People get hurt everywhere after 1, but 5 is where the most, longest-term damage will be done.
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Of that list, I'd say he's "okay" to push 3. Please, spend all the time you want on the golf course instead of destroying America. He was elected to push both common and uncommon republican agendas. I'm okay with that, that's part of politics. But he has no mandate nor should he have any leeway in destroying norms, betraying our values, or breaking the law. That you seem okay with him doing 5 has me questioning your judgement.
 

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
I don't want him doing even 1. But he was duly elected and has the authority to do 4 and sort of 5. The barrier between 5 and 6 is legal. The barriers before that are political. Every President has done 5 in the eyes of some of the people and the President has to be willing and able to pay the political cost it incurs.

I don't want him dismantling the Department of Education. I don't want him firing 220,000 people that were doing important work. But it makes my brain hurt that he wins an election and people grieve that and THEN he starts doing the things he said he would do and people are like, "Now hold on here. It wasn't enough that you won? You're also going to push your agenda?" That second part is part of what we lost when we lost the election.

If I had to bet less than $100 I would say he is going to lose Congress in the midterms and be succeeded by a Democrat. If Democrats die on the hill that is executive branch layoffs, there will be no one to fight at 5. The next President can fix the National Parks and the Department of Education. The problems he has caused there are mainly temporary. I don't have the details of the aid cuts, but I think we can presume that we are at number 5. Other countries will fall apart. People will starve. Countries that had a good impression of the USA will feel betrayed and despondent. Some of that can't be fixed and the rest is hard. If he lets Russia conquer Ukraine, his successor will not be able to fix that.
 
G.B.Blackrock

G.B.Blackrock

Well-known member
Citizen
Axaday said:
The problems he has caused there are mainly temporary.
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I would dispute that. Much of the damage being done can't simply be fixed by having a successor reverse the changes. The damage that's being done will take much longer than that to repair, it seems to me.
 
Ungnome

Ungnome

Grand Empress of the Empire of One Square Foot.
Citizen
G.B.Blackrock said:
I would dispute that. Much of the damage being done can't simply be fixed by having a successor reverse the changes. The damage that's being done will take much longer than that to repair, it seems to me.
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Yup. This isn't Bush the Lesser we are dealing with. This is now a repeated pattern for our nation. We voted him in, he screwed over our alliances to a point, we voted him out, things calmed down a bit we voted him BACK in and he decided to do what he did the first time around only now more xtreme. The world won't forget when we get a new president in 2029. It's gonna take several presidential terms to win back that trust.
 
Anonymous X

Anonymous X

Well-known member
Citizen
Ungnome said:
Yup. This isn't Bush the Lesser we are dealing with. This is now a repeated pattern for our nation. We voted him in, he screwed over our alliances to a point, we voted him out, things calmed down a bit we voted him BACK in and he decided to do what he did the first time around only now more xtreme. The world won't forget when we get a new president in 2029. It's gonna take several presidential terms to win back that trust.
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Realistically, you need a “second republic” in a post-Trump America. A transformation of the established institutions to prevent a Trump ever happening again, and to contain any threats within to both American democracy and the wider international order.
 
wonko the sane?

wonko the sane?

You may test that assumption at your convinience.
Citizen
Pale Rider said:
You shouldn't trust the US so long as the Republicans stand a chance of regaining power in every election. We've seen that they either lack a spine or that their true colors align with Trump.
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Yeah, obviously. The caveat is that you guys never elect fascists again. Standard post world war 2 stuff, really.
 
Pocket

Pocket

jumbled pile of person
Citizen
It would definitely take a complete overthrow of the current government system and a new Constitution to make any sort of guarantee to that effect.
 
Wheelimus

Wheelimus

Administrator
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
Well ten Democrats broke with ranks and helped Republicans keep the government open, so Trump is getting the budget he wanted.

Dunno how to feel about this. I didn't want to see us blamed for a shutdown. But I hate to see Trump get his way.
 
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