I think Dave is the one guy that can run this creatively. While I don't know if this will increase their output, I can say that it will increase their quality.
A Long Time Ago In a Galaxy Far, Far Away.... - Star Wars General Discussion
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I think Dave is the one guy that can run this creatively. While I don't know if this will increase their output, I can say that it will increase their quality.
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IMO I really hope the post sequel stuff settles into something along these lines. Gives a good play ground.
New Republic vs Empire works for spy stories, and the occasional large scale clash.
Independent systems trying to be won over by both sides via force or support. One of the cool things that really worked in Andor was showing that one of the reasons the rebels struggled to gain momentum, and that the Empire could maintain control, was that for many people the Empire really was no different than the Republic, or in some cases better, they weren't that bad until you were under their boot.
This sitting allows room for pirates, smugglers, war lords, gangsters, and bounty hunters, it lends itself well to the cowboy and samurai style stories, as well as the spy, war and dystopian stories.
Also leaves room for rebels, that the New Republic can't directly support or endorse.
You're conflating the Dark Side with the Sith; as much as Disney has beat the drum of all Dark Siders being Sith or Sith-influenced, that's not actually necessary --the same way Hasbro constantly conflates Unicron and the Quintessons as DecepticonsTM because they're the official "Evil" faction.
The Sith are a unified body of rules traditions that ended with Palpatine (though he may have left artifacts and holocrons behind for someone to read).
The Dark Side is just imbalance. All it takes is a Force-user who relies on anger or hatred or greed as a source of strength (and discovers that it works, so they keep doing it). It needs no teacher and no instructions.
You can't get rid of the Dark Side without getting rid of people. Even without the Force, the galaxy is full of bullies and psychopaths who live to prey upon the weak.
I feel like what you're talking about is the "Sith", moreso than the "Dark Side". And...I actually agree about the Sith being gone now that Palpatine's dead. The whole "Rule of Two" thing kind of ends up biting them on the behind, when both of them end up dying. I think it would be a good idea to end the Sith, as a organization.
But, the Dark Side being gone? That's almost impossible. That'd be like killing one bad person, and expecting all greed and hatred to disappear from the universe forever. The Dark Side is the product of darker emotions of anyone with access to the Force. In order to get rid of the Dark Side, you'd have to give everyone in the galaxy a lobotomy. Or just straight up kill all sentient life in the universe.
I know the official stance on the subject is that the Dark Side IS the imbalance in the Force. That the Dark Side is supposed to somehow be unnatural. But...that doesn't quite track with any sort of psychology. If anything, to me, it seems like the Dark Side is a more natural state for any "wild" Force Users to end up with. As much as we criticize a lot of the Jedi's rules, they probably had a reason for being so strict. Not falling to the Dark Side is hard. And without the proper structure and self-control, I could see most people who get access to the Force ending up getting hooked on the power of the Dark Side. When you think about it, it'd be kind of unnatural to end up as a Light-Side User, if you were left on your own. It takes too much self-sacrifice and empathy than most people are capable of, without some kind of guidance or support system.
Did you just turn Star Wars into Ballmastrz 9009?
...Because, if so, I approve!
I'm one of those who thinks the Jedi shot themselves in the foot in that area: the best way to insulate yourself from the Dark Side is by having attachments to the people around you (and thus to the people around them, in an ever-expanding web of social responsibility).
The Dark side inevitably means causing harm to others, which a person is naturally less inclined to do if they care for and understand others. One becomes a Jedi by being part of their community, not by withdrawing from it.
(Anakin's problem wasn't his attachment to Padmé, it was that the Jedi and Palpatine had together severed every other connection he could've had, so losing her left him with nothing. Shmi could have saved him [but the Jedi abandoned her]. Ahsoka could have saved him [but the Order failed her]. Rex could have saved him [but the war separated them]. Even Obi-Wan could have saved him if Anakin had felt free to confide in him. Hell, that's how Luke ultimately did save him; by embracing their connection not just as Jedi, but as family.)
I feel like there has to be lot more to the Dark Side than just swinging a lightsaber in anger. That's natural. Which is why it's easy, I know. But if the Dark Side is the imbalance (a take I've always vastly preferred), there must be something deeply unnatural to it. That rush during combat is just a taste of something. The rest is not obvious and does require training. But after ROTJ the details are lost knowledge.
1000000% this. The Jedi were wrong. That's the point. That's the story.
See the problem for the Dark Side coming back after ROTJ is threefold. 1: The details are lost knowledge. 2: The mystique is gone, so the pull factor drawing Force users to it is gone. 3: Luke did the Skywalker thing and didn't listen to a thing Yoda or Obi-Wan said. He did not accept and will not be replicating the old dogmas against emotions and attachments. So the push factor driving Force users away from the Jedi and to the Dark Side is gone. This thing is done.
1000000% this. The Jedi were wrong. That's the point. That's the story.
See the problem for the Dark Side coming back after ROTJ is threefold. 1: The details are lost knowledge. 2: The mystique is gone, so the pull factor drawing Force users to it is gone. 3: Luke did the Skywalker thing and didn't listen to a thing Yoda or Obi-Wan said. He did not accept and will not be replicating the old dogmas against emotions and attachments. So the push factor driving Force users away from the Jedi and to the Dark Side is gone. This thing is done.
Well...until someone threatens to harm that community, anyway. Then, I imagine, it's very easy to justify using any measures necessary in order to protect your community from outsiders.
Being part of a community means you're more likely to care about people other than yourself. But, usually not EVERYONE. If someone threatens your ideals or happiness, they more easily become your enemy. They become acceptable targets to keep those who you truly care about safe. It becomes "us versus them".
*Gestures vaguely over to most of modern politics...and almost the entirety of the internet*
We've seen in the real world that being more connected doesn't necessarily create better people. It just allows similar people to find each other and keep everyone else out.
I could see a alternate timeline where Anakin managed to keep everyone he cared about safe...but he STILL falls to the Dark Side, because he basically keeps them under house arrest to keep them safe. Wanting total control over the situation.
Well, the Jedi were wrong. But, I'm not sure it's because of their strict rules and doctrines.
They were wrong because they COMPROMISED.
The Jedi should never have allowed themselves to become a organized military force. They went wrong when they became more involved in outside matters.
Which...they've been doing for thousands of years, if you take into account the Old and High Republics, but oh well.
Throughout the Prequels we see the Jedi make so many little compromises. Things that shouldn't really make that big of a difference. But, they added up.
Anakin was too old to start Jedi training. But, he's so powerful, and has so much potential. So let's just make a exception this one time.
When the Clone Wars started, the Jedi were asked to become Generals. The Jedi aren't supposed to lead armies, it's not their way. But, this is emergency, and the war will be over so much faster if the Jedi get involved, too. So, let's just make a exception this one time.
Anakin probably should have been kicked out of the Order a dozen different times, for various problems and infractions of the rules. But, he's just so strong, and they're in the middle of a war, and they need all the manpower they can get. So, let's just make a exception this one time.
It's the compromises that really tripped the Jedi up, I feel. Because the Jedi got attached to the Republic. And attachments are mostly a bad idea for the Jedi.
Luke didn't win because of attachments. He won by refusing to give in to hate and kill the Emperor. He won by moving beyond attachments and fear. Having faith that there was still good inside of his father isn't the same thing as being attached to him. Luke surrendered his will to the Force, and that's why he won. Vader was the one who was attached. And it got him killed. He died in a heroic way. But, those attachments ended up killing him. Just like how being overly attached to Padme led to her death in the first place.
I think there's a argument to be made that the Force is not meant to be USED. The Sith USE the Force. They go against the Will of the Force for their own gain, manipulating it for their own wants and desires. Jedi and other Light Side Users are supposed to surrender their own personal desires and go with the flow of the Force. The Jedi GO WITH the Force. "May the Force be with you" is like "May the winds be with you", may it go in your direction. You're not supposed to force the wind to go where you want it to take you. The Force is about giving up the illusion of control.
The Jedi are supposed to be based on Eastern philosophy and Buddhist monks. The goal is to move beyond attachments to the physical world. To learn to desire nothing. At least as I understand it.
The Jedi were wrong, because they began to USE the Force. It became less about doing the Will of the Force, and instead about doing what they thought was right. Their own desires became more important than the desires of the Force. Their desire to do good, perhaps. But, it was still their personal desire that doomed them. It's about faith, or the lack thereof.
...Well, that and being put into a no-win scenario by a near immortal. The Jedi were probably going to die, regardless of if they got involved or not. Actual Buddhist monks don't have the best track record against modern military forces, either. Palpatine's plan was too far along and too all-encompassing to really stop. But, the Jedi may have made the problem worse.
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And what does he do if you kick him out?
Become the Batman?
(Hey, if the Clone Wars can do Godzilla, they could have done a Batman homage!)
...I guess he does have that Moisture Farm to fall back on?
Yeah, okay, he probably falls to the Dark Side. Kicking people out of the Jedi Order rarely goes well, either. I'll admit that. But, he probably at least should have been put on "desk duty" or something. Something should have been done to rein him in. To be fair, they were all busy. But, still.
(Hey, if the Clone Wars can do Godzilla, they could have done a Batman homage!)
...I guess he does have that Moisture Farm to fall back on?
Yeah, okay, he probably falls to the Dark Side. Kicking people out of the Jedi Order rarely goes well, either. I'll admit that. But, he probably at least should have been put on "desk duty" or something. Something should have been done to rein him in. To be fair, they were all busy. But, still.
The jedi get compromised by just having a counsel; suddenly everyone is rules lawyering what should and shouldnt be done, how things should or should be, etc, to the point they either become so isolationist they might as well not exist or end up divided becuase they are no longer doing what they should be doing at their core: helping people. You see this in the old republic games There's no point in having all these rules and rejecting everything if you neglect the world around you. They are Jedi Knights, not Jedi Monks.
I do agree that the order ends up using the force more then living with it, but I completely disagree on completely separating themselves from everything, because that tends to not go good for them either historically.
I do agree that the order ends up using the force more then living with it, but I completely disagree on completely separating themselves from everything, because that tends to not go good for them either historically.
You should watch ROTJ again. It's underrated. The part where Vader senses Luke on Endor but Palpatine doesn't is a GIGANTIC moment. Vader senses Luke because of the Skywalker refusal to not care. It's the secret ingredient to their powers. It's the missing puzzle piece Anakin knew was there but that he couldn't put his finger on, that he knew that the Jedi weren't teaching him, that he came to believe Palpatine could teach him. Just as he felt Shmi's pain from across the galaxy because he cares, just as Luke senses danger on Bespin because he cares about his friends, Vader senses Luke on Endor because he cares. And Palpatine doesn't sense a thing, because he doesn't care. He's suddenly as blind as the Jedi Council were throughout the Prequels. That scene is Vader finding out for the first time that maybe this guy doesn't know everything. The Power of the Dark Side(tm) has its limits. There is something he can do that Palpatine can't. The thing the Jedi couldn't teach him, it turns out Palpatine can't teach him either. It doesn't come from the Dark Side. It comes from something else. There's something better.
This is the actual plot of the Prequels.
Anakin imagined that being a Jedi would mean roaming the galaxy helping people he cares about. He finds out that they don't actually lift a finger to help anyone unless it's on the Chancellor's orders. They're just peacekeepers that go on specific missions with narrowly defined mandates, obeying their own house rules on top of it, and otherwise they don't intervene. And that's just not how he rolls. Every fiber in his being tells him he should intervene if there is something he can do to help people. It was never going to work, and Obi-Wan knew it was never going to work. A deleted scene in AOTC confirms Obi-Wan flat out believed training Anakin was a mistake. Anakin suddenly doesn't seem winy in that movie when you find out he was actully completely correctly perceiving the situation. I will defend AOTC to my deathbed, I swear to God.
Anyway, I think if Anakin managed to save Shmi he would have left the Order and settled back on Tatooine, spending his life making it a better place. I think that's why Duel of the Fates plays during his search. His fate, and the fate of many in the galaxy, hinged on the outcome of his search.
Anakin's turn in ROTS happens so quickly because Palpatine doesn't ask Anakin to change anything about who he is. He offers Anakin the chance to do what he he always wanted to do anyway: to use the Force as he sees fit, to do things that he feels are right, without checking with the rules lawyers to see if it's okay. We see who he is during the Battle of Coruscant when he wants to stray from his course to go save some his clones, and when he refuses to leave Obi-Wan without trying absolutely everything he can possibly do about those buzz droids. He wants to help so badly if there is something he can do. He comes to believe that being a Sith means he can just intervene if he feels it's right. He thinks it means he can do good things with nobody telling him no.
But, circling back to that scene in ROTJ, he eventually finds out that the Dark Side is a false promise. He has something Palpatine doesn't.
I can't go to bed. I'm all riled up now. I think there's also something going on with the Skywalkers and droids. Droids get no respect, you know? They're disposable. Their minds get wiped like it doesn't matter. Anakin seems to be an abberation here. Don't insult R2's honor in front of him. It bothers him in a way it seems like not many people in the galaxy would be bothered. It's certainly something other Jedi don't get. Obi-Wan doesn't think droids can think. Anakin can't help it. He'll pack-bond with anything. I think Luke inherited that. I think of the rebels offering him a fresh droid before the Battle of Yavin because they just imagine he would want one. It's just a tool. Who wouldn't want one in brand new shape? But he's attached to R2 already. There's that thing again. The Skywalkers get attached. It's the secret to their success.
I want to add, Anakin issues weren't stuff like "he's too old". The primary reason Anakin fell, is because he wasn't trained by the right person. The only Jedi we in the movies that actually followed the will of the force: Qui-Gon Jin. He discovered Anakin through the force, he was the one that wanted to train him.
Qui-Gon would have actually understood him, as Qui-Gon also chafed under the councils rules, he was constantly at odds with them, but as much as he did he was still respected in part because he was one of the few Jedi in tune with the will of the force. Qui-Gon is likely the ideal of what a Jedi should be. So it's unfortunate that he dies and Obi-wan is too much of a stickler for the rules. He's unable to train Anakin in the way his master would have.
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The biggest issue with the Jedi is the fact they really don't practice what they preach, and by that I mean balance. They always go on about finding balance with the force, but the counsel usually ends up leaning too much into isolationist policies as I mentioned, they seperate themselves and become an inbalance in themselves. They don't go corrupt by taking part in the clone wars, it's how they join and go about it. Jedi should be in the thick of battles, Jedi have the most potential to be able to play both offense and defense, a group of Jedi could hold off enemies while others in the group make sure as little harm as possible comes to those caught in the middle. Making them generals in charge of troopers isn't making the most of their abilities, which is likely the point.
Qui-Gon would have actually understood him, as Qui-Gon also chafed under the councils rules, he was constantly at odds with them, but as much as he did he was still respected in part because he was one of the few Jedi in tune with the will of the force. Qui-Gon is likely the ideal of what a Jedi should be. So it's unfortunate that he dies and Obi-wan is too much of a stickler for the rules. He's unable to train Anakin in the way his master would have.
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The biggest issue with the Jedi is the fact they really don't practice what they preach, and by that I mean balance. They always go on about finding balance with the force, but the counsel usually ends up leaning too much into isolationist policies as I mentioned, they seperate themselves and become an inbalance in themselves. They don't go corrupt by taking part in the clone wars, it's how they join and go about it. Jedi should be in the thick of battles, Jedi have the most potential to be able to play both offense and defense, a group of Jedi could hold off enemies while others in the group make sure as little harm as possible comes to those caught in the middle. Making them generals in charge of troopers isn't making the most of their abilities, which is likely the point.
co-signed
This may not really fit the "swords and sorcery in space" aesthetic of Star Wars, but it might be interesting to see an exploration of what the Force "wants." It is generally accepted that the Jedi follow the will of the Force, and that the Force does seem to try to preserve life and remove suffering. The Sith use the Force, often times to kill and increase suffering, but the idea is that they ignore the Will of the Force while still using it's power, so maybe that doesn't really count against the Force's "goodness."
But is the Force really Good / altruistic? From Yoda, we learn that life creates the Force and makes it grow. If the Force is an energy field created and sustained by all the life in the universe, is it's "goal" just an increase of life? I put "goal" in quotes, because there's a question as to whether the Force has a consciousness and actively WANTS things, or if it's more just like an amoeba "wants" to absorb nutrients and is actively attempting to do so at all times, but doesn't have anything that could be called consciousness or desire. Or even like a fire "wants" to spread to create more fire, and by heating/drying the area around the current fire actively creates conditions conducive to spreading without any sort of mind.
And even if the Force DOES have a consciousness/will, does that actually mean it's "good" when it's protecting life? If it's goal is just to increase the amount of life in the universe at the expense of all other considerations, does it do so in a sustainable way? Or would it, if it could, create a galaxy-wide event like the Great Oxidation Event on primordial earth where photosynthetic micro-organisms kept multiplying exponentially until they pumped the atmosphere so full of oxygen that it basically wiped out the grand majority of the existing life on the planet?
I'm not at all saying that that's the case, but it would be an interesting thing to explore.
But is the Force really Good / altruistic? From Yoda, we learn that life creates the Force and makes it grow. If the Force is an energy field created and sustained by all the life in the universe, is it's "goal" just an increase of life? I put "goal" in quotes, because there's a question as to whether the Force has a consciousness and actively WANTS things, or if it's more just like an amoeba "wants" to absorb nutrients and is actively attempting to do so at all times, but doesn't have anything that could be called consciousness or desire. Or even like a fire "wants" to spread to create more fire, and by heating/drying the area around the current fire actively creates conditions conducive to spreading without any sort of mind.
And even if the Force DOES have a consciousness/will, does that actually mean it's "good" when it's protecting life? If it's goal is just to increase the amount of life in the universe at the expense of all other considerations, does it do so in a sustainable way? Or would it, if it could, create a galaxy-wide event like the Great Oxidation Event on primordial earth where photosynthetic micro-organisms kept multiplying exponentially until they pumped the atmosphere so full of oxygen that it basically wiped out the grand majority of the existing life on the planet?
I'm not at all saying that that's the case, but it would be an interesting thing to explore.
Except that, to a Jedi, there are no outsiders; the Force connects everything. They wouldn't be "outsiders," they'd be neighbours fighting among themselves.
Even at worst, a true Jedi should not see anyone as enemies (. . . maybe not even the Sith), only as dangerous/wounded animals that may need to be put down.
Then he wouldn't really be caring about them would he?
See, through Shmi, Anakin is connected to the people of Tatooine in general (because Shmi's wellbeing relies on those around her). He's connected to the Larses because Shmi cares for them, and to the Whitesuns because Owen is marrying Beru. He's even, potentially, connected to the Sandpeople, because his family (and the people they in turn are connected to) are among their potential targets, so it's in his own interest to seek peace between them and the settlers (also because, objectively, the Sandpeople have valid grievances over how the settlers have treated them).
Through Padmé, Anakin is connected to her family --and thus to the well-being of their community on Naboo (which also has its own aboriginal people, with whom Padmé herself is seeking peaceful coexistence). He's also tied to the Republic, its government, and its ideals, in which Padmé is strongly invested.
One of the things I really liked in the High Republic books is in the second arc they had a meeting between representatives of different Force traditions. Jedi's came but so did envoys of a half dozen or so other Orders that used the force in different ways for different things.
I'd like to see more of that. Same universe, same force different magic guys doing different magic with it.
-ZacWilliam, one of the reasons I like the Nightsisters. It's cool to see space magic used an entirely different way.
I'd like to see more of that. Same universe, same force different magic guys doing different magic with it.
-ZacWilliam, one of the reasons I like the Nightsisters. It's cool to see space magic used an entirely different way.
Lucas' original idea for the sequel trilogy would have explored this: Fantastic Voyage style. Where we actually meet the Mediclorians and the Whill of the Force, that would basically be god in the SW universe.
I think it's closer to the ideas that he utilized in Clone Wars. For example his ideas with the midichlorians and the whills have analogues or precursors to stuff in The Clone Wars show like:
-the force planet as the origin of life/midichlorians that we saw in the Yoda Arc in TCW with the Force Priestesses
-the main nemesis being Maul with a new apprentice (Talon) being the Godfather of Crime and the Crime Syndicates and Maul's Shadow Collection being the "Empire" or "Sith" of the Sequel trilogy as the main destabilizing force, which was already being set up in TCW
-also he had the idea of stormtroopers being diehard imperial holdouts like Baathists joining ISIS or the Japanese holdouts from WW2
George Lucas reveals his plan for Star Wars 7 through 9—and it was awful
Compared to this, Rian Johnson saved your childhood.
arstechnica.com