A Long Time Ago In a Galaxy Far, Far Away.... - Star Wars General Discussion

ZakuConvoy

Well-known member
Citizen
This may not really fit the "swords and sorcery in space" aesthetic of Star Wars, but it might be interesting to see an exploration of what the Force "wants." It is generally accepted that the Jedi follow the will of the Force, and that the Force does seem to try to preserve life and remove suffering. The Sith use the Force, often times to kill and increase suffering, but the idea is that they ignore the Will of the Force while still using it's power, so maybe that doesn't really count against the Force's "goodness."

But is the Force really Good / altruistic? From Yoda, we learn that life creates the Force and makes it grow. If the Force is an energy field created and sustained by all the life in the universe, is it's "goal" just an increase of life? I put "goal" in quotes, because there's a question as to whether the Force has a consciousness and actively WANTS things, or if it's more just like an amoeba "wants" to absorb nutrients and is actively attempting to do so at all times, but doesn't have anything that could be called consciousness or desire. Or even like a fire "wants" to spread to create more fire, and by heating/drying the area around the current fire actively creates conditions conducive to spreading without any sort of mind.

And even if the Force DOES have a consciousness/will, does that actually mean it's "good" when it's protecting life? If it's goal is just to increase the amount of life in the universe at the expense of all other considerations, does it do so in a sustainable way? Or would it, if it could, create a galaxy-wide event like the Great Oxidation Event on primordial earth where photosynthetic micro-organisms kept multiplying exponentially until they pumped the atmosphere so full of oxygen that it basically wiped out the grand majority of the existing life on the planet?

I'm not at all saying that that's the case, but it would be an interesting thing to explore.
I actually agree. It'd be VERY interesting to learn about what the Force's motivations and desires in all of this. It would take away from the mystique of it all, but I can't help but wonder.

Especially for "creating" Anakin in the first place. Because if you look at everything he did, and if we assume it all went according to the Force's plans more or less...it seems like the Force just wanted to get rid of both the Jedi and the Sith. Lucas himself has probably said that isn't the case. But, I don't know how else to look at it, given everything that happened.

And, again, if we do assume the Force just wants to create more Force...that might actually make sense? The Jedi and the Sith both limited how much they let themselves grow. They were both "limiting" organizations, in their own ways. The Jedi basically forced everyone they could find out of the gene pool, not usually allowing them to have their own families. And the Sith had the Rule of Two, and kept killing each other, anyway. Both of these organizations were limiting how many new Force Users could be around at any one time. Neither really encouraged Force Users to make more Force Users, like the Force may want. So...they both had to go!

Unless we just assume the Force is shepherding everyone towards some ideal utopia. But...that doesn't seem too likely given the Sequel Trilogy. I mean, there's usually a baby boom after a big war. So...is the Force just engineering these conflicts just to expand the population? Sometimes you need a forest fire to make the ground more fertile for the next generation?

I'll admit, I can't think of anything better for a motivation that fits the evidence we have. I wish I could. It feels...odd to imagine the Force as a "wild wolf" that doesn't like to be "chained" by the Sith, but also encourages it's "pack" to spread and thus being opposed to the Jedi, too. It feels...reductive? But, I think that does fit what we've seen the best.

So, yes, I'm not sure if the Force is actually a pure good or not. But...it IS something you have to deal with. Because it seems able to manipulate things to get it's way one way or another. It's something you have to live with in this universe. And trying to work against it doesn't tend to go well, for anyone.
Except that, to a Jedi, there are no outsiders; the Force connects everything. They wouldn't be "outsiders," they'd be neighbours fighting among themselves.

Even at worst, a true Jedi should not see anyone as enemies (. . . maybe not even the Sith), only as dangerous/wounded animals that may need to be put down.
Ideally, yes. In practice? Not so much. Just ask the Trade Federation, or the Seperatists, or the Pirates, or the Hutts.

That's the thing about the Jedi being so closely connected to the Republic. It's VERY rare for the Jedi to not take the Republic's side on matters. The Jedi very much lean Republic. They like to position themselves as more or less being "neutral". The peace makers. The negotiators. But, when those negotiations go south, out come the lightsabers.

I mean, this IS a action franchise. If they didn't do that, there wouldn't be a story. And they're usually justified because the other side usually shoots first. But, still, it does feel like it should be a bigger conflict with their beliefs than it is. That's why the Jedi's attachment to the Republic was a bad thing. They became more about enforcing the law, than speaking the Will of the Force. It becomes more about protecting the Republic's interests, rather than strictly doing what needs to be done. Even if those two do align, most of the time.

Then he wouldn't really be caring about them would he?

See, through Shmi, Anakin is connected to the people of Tatooine in general (because Shmi's wellbeing relies on those around her). He's connected to the Larses because Shmi cares for them, and to the Whitesuns because Owen is marrying Beru. He's even, potentially, connected to the Sandpeople, because his family (and the people they in turn are connected to) are among their potential targets, so it's in his own interest to seek peace between them and the settlers (also because, objectively, the Sandpeople have valid grievances over how the settlers have treated them).

Through Padmé, Anakin is connected to her family --and thus to the well-being of their community on Naboo (which also has its own aboriginal people, with whom Padmé herself is seeking peaceful coexistence). He's also tied to the Republic, its government, and its ideals, in which Padmé is strongly invested.

Well, that's the dramatic irony of it all, isn't it? Anakin does tend to put his own feelings first and foremost.

And, again, ideally, that would be the way it all works. But, in practice? I don't see Anakin EVER being too sympathetic toward the Sand People. If they threaten those he loves, he WILL cut them. Even if he had found Shmi alive, those guys would have been in for a beating, at least.

That's the thing about connections. They lead to preferences. You will always end up having some people you favor more than others. And, ideally, the Jedi should be as neutral as possible while dealing with these conflicts. Which is why the rule against attachments does make some sense.

It seems to me, like attachments for Force Users is a lot like alcohol. Now, some people CAN handle it...but other people can't. And the risk you run with Force Users is so high that it's usually not worth taking that risk, if you can help it. Not when they can drop a mountain on you, if they get too angry. So, I still think the lack of attachments makes sense.



As for isolation being a bad thing...I feel like the franchise as a whole disagrees with that.

Obi-Wan ended up being pretty isolated for most of his life in order to protect Luke. And that turned out for the best, because it allowed Luke to grow up safely.

Yoda was definitely isolated for a good chunk of his later years. And that turned out for the best, since he has able to survive the Purge, in order to train Luke. In fact, Luke going back out into the world to face Vader too early is treated like a bad thing. Luke arguably "should" have remained isolated a little longer. It works out for the best, but still.

By the time of the Sequel Trilogy, Luke ended up being pretty isolated. And...that's kind of treated like a bad thing, I'll admit. But, it does allow Rey to get the training she needed. Plus...Porgs! So...let's say half-and-half?

And by the time the Skywalker Saga is over...Rey seems to be isolating herself back on the Moisture Farm. Maybe. It's unclear. We'll see what happens if they ever follow up on her story.

"Isolation" doesn't seem to be treated as bad thing in this franchise. It's a type of self-sacrifice, which these stories usually reward. Isolation means peace, which Force Users sometimes need to re-center themselves. It's rarely treated like "the wrong choice". The only exception really comes from The Last Jedi, which famously loved to subvert ALL of the tropes that Star Wars has. So, that's kind of a outlier.

Now, it's true that none of these people STAY isolated. They all end up getting found by someone and helping out. But...in almost every case, that does also lead to their deaths. Going INTO isolation saves their lives. Coming OUT of isolation kills them.

I feel like there is a common lesson here. "The only way to find peace is to remove yourself from the chaos of society". And this isn't just something Star Wars does, either. How many movies or shows ends with the main characters moving to a peaceful farm in the country? Or workaholic business person taking a lower-paying job in a small town? Away from the hustle and bustle of the city? People being together breeds conflict, it's just human nature. In order to find your happy ending, you have to find the people you belong with, and remove as many other outsiders as possible from the equation that can ruin it. Being happy with "less" is a good thing, it means you're being less greedy. Perhaps that's a twisted way to take that lesson. But, it's common enough wisdom.

So, I don't think the Jedi Order's isolationist tendencies are really meant to be a failing. If anything, I think it's the opposite. Getting too much involved in the politics of the Republic is what the problem was. The Jedi Order tried to have it both ways, being a part of the Republic, but also kind of apart. And it just didn't work.



...And I know that seems contradictory to what the Force itself most likely "wants". If Force Users exist to make more Force Users, why is isolation a good thing? Well...I don't know! I guess you can argue that being lonely for a good long while makes you more receptive to affection later? (Which NEVER happens!) Or maybe the Force just REALLY wanted the Jedi and Sith eliminated so it could spread more freely without so much oversight later? (Which feels dark for this franchise.) But, I never claimed that Star Wars consistently written!
 
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Cyoti

Member
Citizen
I am aware of his comments. I'm just pointing out that you need to take it in the context of the stuff he did on Clone Wars with Filoni. Clone Wars was if anything a stepping stone to his ideas for the sequel trilogy especially the Darth Maul stuff that we know would be setup for the situation in the Sequels, but also things like the midichlorian planet that was stated as the origin of life. There's nothing in his comments suggesting that it was going to be Fantastic Voy anymore than TPM was Fantastic Voy with the introduction of midichlorians, that's the writer of the article making up stuff. We have his own statements from other sources like Star Wars Archives 1999-2005 and even designs from his Episode VII in the Art of TFA that doesn't suggest this at all.
 
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Donocropolis

Olde-Timey Member
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
I'll admit, I can't think of anything better for a motivation that fits the evidence we have. I wish I could. It feels...odd to imagine the Force as a "wild wolf" that doesn't like to be "chained" by the Sith, but also encourages it's "pack" to spread and thus being opposed to the Jedi, too. It feels...reductive? But, I think that does fit what we've seen the best.

So, yes, I'm not sure if the Force is actually a pure good or not. But...it IS something you have to deal with. Because it seems able to manipulate things to get it's way one way or another. It's something you have to live with in this universe. And trying to work against it doesn't tend to go well, for anyone.

This might be a good plot for a set of stories that take place in the future of the Star Wars galaxy. Whatever is the future equivalent of the Jedi and Sith come to realize that the Force itself does not have the best interests of the inhabitants of the galaxy in mind. Maybe the Force has decided that sentient beings are too much trouble and it'd be better served by having the galaxy filled with a less-troublesome but more densely packed form of unicellular life (again, this could be presented as either a conscious choice of a sentient Force, or as a survival-of-the-fittest natural selection of a mindless Force, either works). But the galaxy, especially the Force users, have to come together to counter this. Obviously, for the Force users, this would come at the expense of loosing their powers, which would add a wrinkle into it.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
Especially for "creating" Anakin in the first place. Because if you look at everything he did, and if we assume it all went according to the Force's plans more or less...it seems like the Force just wanted to get rid of both the Jedi and the Sith. Lucas himself has probably said that isn't the case. But, I don't know how else to look at it, given everything that happened.
I took it as the Force wanting the Sith gone (maybe not necessarily the Dark Side, but definitely the Sith) and Anakin's birth, discovery, rise as a Jedi, fall to the Dark Side, and redemption via his son was a long game by the Force because it would end with Vader sacrificing himself to kill Palpatine, thus wiping the last two Sith out in one go.

Yes, this path would lead to the near extinction of the Jedi order, but it would survive in Luke.
We might ask why the Force would go for a path that resulted in so much death and destruction, but the Force is not "sentient" like we are. It may not even have the same concepts of life and death as us. It's beyond us, and thinks on timescales incomprehensible to mortal creatures.

In that context engineering a "chosen one" to fall and redeem himself to rid the galaxy of the Sith once and for all makes some sense, if you detach yourself from the moral constraints mortal beings hold onto.
 

CoffeeHorse

Hanging in there
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
Everything makes a lot more sense if you accept that the Jedi were doing it wrong too. Anakin is correct. Jedi are supposed to help if there's something they can do.

I don't assume it was the will of the Force that the rest of the Jedi be wiped out. Palpatine is a monster. It was the will of the Force that a Jedi stop him. So it's possible that nothing he did was part of the plan. I think the Force just couldn't save them for the same reason it couldn't use one of them to stop Palpatine: they weren't listening. They couldn't perceive its will anymore. Qui-Gon was the last Jedi left who was listening, and the Council just saw him as a rebel. He couldn't get anyone else to listen. He couldn't get his own apprentice to listen. Obi-Wan sided with the Council. So the Force created its champion, and led Qui-Gon to him. As a master-padawan duo, maybe they could have started to turn things around.

I think Duel of the Fates marks moments where the will of the Force is at stake, and fails. I think it was the will of the Force that Qui-Gon train the chosen one, that Anakin save Shmi (and possibly go one to help many others on Tatooine), and that Palpatine be stopped. It all went wrong. but I think that's because the Force was sick from its growing Dark Side tumor. It was trying, but it couldn't work like it should.

It worked out in the end though. The Force just needed a backup to the chosen one, in the form of Luke. Who, it must be noted, is a result of Anakin following a feeling he can't ignore instead of listening to jedi rules.
 

Tuxedo Prime

Well-known member
Citizen
We might ask why the Force would go for a path that resulted in so much death and destruction, but the Force is not "sentient" like we are. It may not even have the same concepts of life and death as us. It's beyond us, and thinks on timescales incomprehensible to mortal creatures.
This would actually explain what happened to one of the side effects of this breaking of the Baneite Sith succession.

I've written before of the other fallen Tatooine Jedi, A'Sharad Hett. He founded the One Sith in part because he felt quite strongly that the galaxy had healed "wrong" (what with the Jedi starting up again under the son of the man who betrayed the Order he knew), and, much as one may need to break and re-set a bone....

Partway through his scheme, he was betrayed by his chief advisor, Darth Wyyrlok III (think Marvel-Shockwave to Hett's Megatron). But, Somehow, Lord Krayt returns... and having communed with the Force during his slight case of being mostly dead, decides that the galaxy must die, so that it may be reborn. It worked for him, after all....

At the time, we were just led to think that Krayt's newfound omnicidial mania was a case of having Come Back Wrong, but what if it was a case of misinterpreting what the Force was trying to tell him?
 

Axaday

Well-known member
Citizen
I actually agree. It'd be VERY interesting to learn about what the Force's motivations and desires in all of this. It would take away from the mystique of it all, but I can't help but wonder.

Especially for "creating" Anakin in the first place. Because if you look at everything he did, and if we assume it all went according to the Force's plans more or less...it seems like the Force just wanted to get rid of both the Jedi and the Sith. Lucas himself has probably said that isn't the case. But, I don't know how else to look at it, given everything that happened.

Qui-Gon talked about the will of the force and I felt like people looked down their nose at him. He wound up being right about some things, but maybe not that.

Right after "The Force Awakens", I was pretty intrigued with Snoke saying "There has been an awakening. Have you felt it?" I had an idea that the Force sometimes creates a strong Force user, perhaps as a natural response to imbalance in the Force. Anakin. Rey. Yoda perhaps.

If I'd read why you wrote back then, I would have suggested it was maybe not so much so that person can go fix things, but just to propagate. Genetically or by teaching. But that was back when I assumed Snoke was some kind of older or foreign Force user that had a chance to fill the vacuum left by the Sith. You are unlikely to learn something really new from a puppet.
 

Tuxedo Prime

Well-known member
Citizen
Maybe they need to tell their Marketing Department they don't Grogu Darth Vader enough?
Honestly, in spite of his brief appearance in The Acolyte, I think that there's an untapped market for Darth Plagueis (the Wise).

After all, there has been no small amount of commentary (in-and-out-of-universe!) that his story, brief as it was, seems to have inspired.

 

Platypus Prime

Well-known member
Citizen
So I saw some of the releases.

A complete Darth Maul Lightsaber is $540 pre-tax, pre-shipping if you get both parts needed to do it...

I think I've been priced out. Of...like...everything....
 


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