Transformers the Movie 40th Anniversary Tour

Sabrblade

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What DIDN'T make sense was having "Magnus" be the title for what is traditionally the "Prime" roll. That means that Ultra Magnus's original name was "Ultra?" That's a terrible name.
Maybe it was like a "Hot Rod to Rodimus Prime" case where the "Ultra" in "Ultra Magnus" (and "Ultra Prime" per the AllSpark Almanacs) was modified from whatever his original name was. Since Hot Rod didn't become "Hot Rod Prime", Ultra Magnus could have once been "Ultrox" or "Ultran" or something (though, not the obvious "Ultron" since Marvel's got that name locked into their ownership).
 

LordGigaIce

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I liked the way that Animated used "Prime." While non-traditional, it let them do exactly what you described, have a young, inexperienced Optimus while still using the Marketing Department mandated name for him. It absolutely makes sense as a title for a crew chief.

What DIDN'T make sense was having "Magnus" be the title for what is traditionally the "Prime" roll. That means that Ultra Magnus's original name was "Ultra?" That's a terrible name.
Ultra R Stack
 

The Predaking

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Maybe the name is actually the title. Like he is the supreme leader of the Autobot military, hence he is called Ultra Magnus.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
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Maybe the name is actually the title. Like he is the supreme leader of the Autobot military, hence he is called Ultra Magnus.
Per the AllSpark Almanacs, he was known as "Ultra Prime" before he was promoted to the rank of Magnus.
 

Donocropolis

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Per the AllSpark Almanacs, he was known as "Ultra Prime" before he was promoted to the rank of Magnus.
Two things:

1) It would have been so simple to have "Ultra" be the title. Not only does it makes sense as he is the ultimate authority, but then the name his mother gave him could have been Magnus, a perfectly serviceable name.

2) It's more world-building than necessary for a show that's primarily aimed at kids, but they really should have put a few ranks between Prime and Magnus. Supreme, Maximus, Minor, Major, etc. all have precedence in Transformers names.
 

Sabrblade

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1) It would have been so simple to have "Ultra" be the title. Not only does it makes sense as he is the ultimate authority, but then the name his mother gave him could have been Magnus, a perfectly serviceable name.
Derrick Wyatt probably felt "Optimus Magnus", "Sentinel Magnus", "Rodimus Magnus", etc. sounded cooler and less goofy than "Ultra Optimus", "Ultra Sentinel", "Ultra Rodimus", etc. for a top tier military command rank.

2) It's more world-building than necessary for a show that's primarily aimed at kids, but they really should have put a few ranks between Prime and Magnus. Supreme, Maximus, Minor, Major, etc. all have precedence in Transformers names.
"Minor" made it into the show as a sergeant rank, with Sentinel being "Sentinel Minor" during his days as an Autobot Boot Camp drill sergeant. The Almanac also referred to "Major" as the rank above "Minor" but below "Prime".

"Supreme" seemed to be reserved for Omega Supreme and his fellow warship robots. "Maximus" got used as the name of the Elite Guard's headquarters, Fortress Maximus.
 

LordGigaIce

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Biggest argument against 'The Ugly Sonic design was just a marketing ploy' theory is like...they are gonna spend all that time and effort (and money, most importantly) doing character designs, creating CGI models, rigging it, animating it, digital composition, etc. just as a way to try and get attention or some 'We need to delay this movie!'

(To say nothing on merchandise and jive that was released using the Ugly Sonic design.)
It's the same thing with the "New Coke was a psy op to make people miss the classic formula" conspiracy theory.
Companies aren't going to waste millions of dollars in resources, time, and effort to churn out a product designed to be unpopular and not provide a return on that investment. Not only is it bad business, it's borderline illegal, as presumably it would require lying to shareholders during publicly available financial reports. And for all the jokes about how we live in a "capitalist hellscape," jive like that does not fly. And no corporate exec is going to risk his comfy golden parachute-laden existence to go to jail for some "4d chess" bs dreamed up by reddit losers who have never had to balance a cheque book.

Earthspark is a great show, and it is worth finishing.
I really liked season one. I felt like the show really dropped the ball afterwards, though.
 

Undead Scottsman

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Nah, I don't agree. Marvel Zombies is a side thing. IDW 1.0 was the main comic continuity for thirteen years. And is, in fact, the longest continuous ongoing continuity in Transformers history. I'm not 100% on that, but I'm pretty certain, and if not, it's damn close. So no, I wouldn't compare Marvel Zombies to IDW 1.0.

Sorry, I'm not really coming around on this one. Rodimus being being a brash, arrogant, self destructive glory seeker whose lack of progress towards meaningful growth and goals is the butt of jokes and who gives himself the "reasons you suck" speech, to Optimus isn't just IDW being IDW.
You're right in that it falls in line with IDW looking at everyone a bit sideways, but it's still in line with the more negative views of Rodimus at the time.

Notably, your example paints Optimus' unilateral annexation of Earth to be a hard choice on his part, one he's unsure of, and only does it as one of a number of bad options. It's "what if your wise robot truck dad from the 80s '86 had to make a really questionable choice?"
He's still Optimus under all the shades of grey, and IDW Rodimus still reflected a lot of negative ideas about Rodimus under all of that too.

The "hard choice" that Optimus makes is basically deciding to act like a fascist, which I think ranks quite a bit above "questionable choice." It's literally Prime setting the last however many million years of fighting against Decepticons on fire and deciding that a single unelected authority making the decisions is sometimes OK, because he believes that he's in the right (as if every single person who has ever done that has ever thought they were in the wrong), that his is the only opinion that ultimately matters, and any consequences people suffer because of that decision are acceptable, despite none of them asking for it.

I find Rodimus having Chromedome keep using his mnemosurgery skills to be way, way further down on the list of objectionable things that declaring you, and no one else, get to unilaterally decide the political standing of an entire planet, ignoring the will of 8 billion people, over 200 Earth governments and the entire space robot government you're trying to annex them into. Like, that's several orders of magnitude of difference.

However, this is getting off of the point. We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether or not IDW is a notable example of Rodimus being portrayed badly.

Sure, Optimus dying turned him from "fun robot dad" into "robot Jesus" and the whole Thirteenth Prime bs probably stems from all of this at the end of the day...

... but you know what? Maybe it all worked out the best?

Optimus dying made the movie memorable. No one had done anything like that in kids media. We're still years off of DC killing Superman as a publicity stunt. The lead hero didn't die. We have people in this thread who have said they've shown the movie to people who have no real connection to Transformers beyond base surface level familiarity, and to this day they're shocked Optimus dies twenty minutes in.

I don't think this movie, or Transformers as a whole, does as well in the public consciousness if Optimus doesn't die. It's just another toy commercial movie at that point.
Also, Rodimus doesn't happen at all, if Optimus doesn't die. Hell, Hot Rod may not happen at all if there's no need for a hero's journey narrative.

I guess the ideal timeline is a world where the movie happens as it happens, but kids don't freak out when Optimus bites the dust. Which was, frankly, impossible. You can't teach a bunch of 5-10 year olds to get attached to a fictional character, kill him in front of them, and expect them not to be upset. That's asking a lot out of children. Too much, frankly.

Now should those children have gotten the hell over it as they got older? Yes.

I'm not talking about Optimus dying, I'm talking about them doing a 180 and bringing him back, at the same time drop-kicking the character they spent an entire movie and season building up as his replacement. If Optimus stayed dead, I think the franchise would look very different today.

As an aside (this isn't part of my argument), I do think it's wild to consider that making an emotional connection with the viewer is one of the greatest things you can hope to achieve with a piece of art and Hasbro not only wound up creating a character people loved, but generated a powerful emotional moment that really transcended the franchise. Artists spend their lives trying to do that and this dumb toy company stumbled ass-backwards into by trying to sell toys. :D
 

LordGigaIce

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I'm not talking about Optimus dying, I'm talking about them doing a 180 and bringing him back, at the same time drop-kicking the character they spent an entire movie and season building up as his replacement. If Optimus stayed dead, I think the franchise would look very different today.
No argument there, but again, the decision to kill him was born from out of touch executives and that same group of people pulling a 180 at breakneck speed when the complaints rolled in is par for the course.

I mean kids cared about Optimus, they killed him in front of them, were shocked when this went poorly, and panicked. History as an area of study is kind of hazardous because you don't want to fall into determinist thinking but you also don't want to fall into counter-factual thinking that anything that could happen was just as likely as what did. At a certain point you have to concede to what actually transpired.
All of this is to say that I don't know how anything could have been different once the decision to kill Optimus was made. The 5-10 year olds all acted like you'd expect 5-10 year olds to react in that situation, parents of upset 5-10 year olds reacted exactly as you'd expect, and corporate execs who don't care about art or character development acted like you'd expect them to. Ideally someone should have said "look we invested in a theatrical movie and a full season of television into Rodimus, we need to stay the course," and for all we know someone did say that.
But Hasbro's board looking at the complaints and horror stories of upset kids wasn't going to take the side of the artists in that situation.

As an aside (this isn't part of my argument), I do think it's wild to consider that making an emotional connection with the viewer is one of the greatest things you can hope to achieve with a piece of art and Hasbro not only wound up creating a character people loved, but generated a powerful emotional moment that really transcended the franchise. Artists spend their lives trying to do that and this dumb toy company stumbled ass-backwards into by trying to sell toys. :D
I have friends who grew up with single mothers and who have said to me that Optimus was a stand in father figure. Say whatever you will about that, that's got some power behind it. And I have to think Cullen was a huge reason for that.
Sunbow had other projects. Hasbro had other projects. Those writers had other projects, but the combination of all of them plus Cullen's delivery just clicked in a way. Like... people like Duke. No one called Duke a father figure.

The funny thing is that through GI Joe and Transformers and MLP and Jem Hasbro found a formula. Give kids characters to get attached to, and they'll want the toys. And then the execs who greenlit that and reaped the benefits of that also said "yeah kill those characters off. Go to town," not realizing that maybe the kids they'd trained to be attached to these characters would be upset watching them get brutally murdered.

In a way, it's a glorious thing. Nothing like that will ever happen again. Everyone's too brand conscious. Hell, they panicked and downgraded Duke's death to "temporary coma" in the GI Joe movie that followed TFTM. It was a one time spark of insanity, and it's probably the reason most of us are still attached to this brand in some way.

And I mean this sincerely, it's probably still the best or second best Transformers movie of all time. I flip flop between it and TFO depending on my mood.
 
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CoffeeHorse

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And again, it's wild that even people who don't have that emotional connection are still stunned by his death. Something clearly went very right with Optimus Prime. He clicks with audiences that quickly. He's barely in the movie but it effectively sells him as a hero.

When the whole plan was not selling him anymore. Silly Hasbro.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
The big thing that's lost with Optimus post-revival is the warmth that made him work.
S1 and S2 Optimus cracked dad jokes, he got frustrated but he still cared, he stood up to Megatron without being a trailer quote machine.

1986 was his big grand moment, and so he had a lot of gravitas to him to befit the situation. Thing is he up and died and those 10-15 mins of screen time he got were crystallized as "this is what G1 Optimus was like," when it really wasn't.

Like... I'm convinced that 99% of modern day writers who want to write Optimus are referencing '86 movie Optimus, and not the warm, goofy, but noble dude from the show kids actually got attached to.

EDIT- Optimus dying also gave us the Matrix, and established "Prime" as a title for the Autobot leader, when previously it was just part of his name.
So much of what Transformers is today stems from Optimus kicking the bucket. It didn't just make the movie an aberration that stood out over time, it laid the foundations for the franchise going forwards.
 

Sabrblade

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S1 and S2 Optimus cracked dad jokes, he got frustrated but he still cared, he stood up to Megatron without being a trailer quote machine.
He was, however, a trailer-tow machine. ;)

Thing is he up and died and those 10-15 mins of screen time he got were crystallized as "this is what G1 Optimus was like," when it really wasn't.
Yeah, that quote from Peter Cullen's late brother, Larry, about how Peter should play Optimus as a real hero who should "Be strong enough to be gentle," really never comes across with Optimus at any point in the movie. He's all guns blazing and brawling like a typical '80s action hero played by Schwarzenegger or Stallone. There is no gentleness in any of his scenes, because the story the movie wanted to tell was too dire a crisis to allow for Optimus to embody any of the gentleness that Larry Cullen inspired Peter to embody for Optimus.
 
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LordGigaIce

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Oof, ouch.
I was maybe a bit harsh, but it does strike me as if most people who conspiracy theorize about business don't really know what they're talking about.

"They're going to misdirect everyone in a masterful gambit of deception!"

No, no they're not. No one is signing off on the years worth of product R&D and marketing for a product that's designed to fail. Much less risk massive fines and jail time for fraud.

Occam's Razor tells us that New Coke and Ugly Sonic were merely the result of corporate incompetence, and they backtracked because they like making money, not alienating their customer base more than they already have.
 

lastmaximal

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I mainly reacted because I'm the moron who brought it up in this thread, lol. But yeah, I did say that was also me not knowing how anything actually works (which is typical of conspiracy think).
 

LBD "Nytetrayn"

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Optimus' equivalent figure in Commander Rodimus' line was the ER Leader class figure (he got a package refresh in Kingdom). Rodimus got the higher price point and more involved trailer in that line. So I don't think you can blame the current team for downplaying Rodimus.
Is it the same team? I thought they'd had some turnover between Kingdom and now?
 

Donocropolis

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Yeah, that quote from Peter Cullen's late brother, Larry, about how Peter should play Optimus as a real hero who should "Be strong enough to be gentle," really never comes across with Optimus at any point in the movie. He's all guns blazing and brawling like a typical '80s action hero played by Schwarzenegger or Stallone. There is no gentleness in any of his scenes, because the story the movie wanted to tell was too dire a crisis to allow for Optimus to embody any of the gentleness that Larry Cullen inspired Peter to embody for Optimus.

And that's what makes it especially memorable for kids that did spend 2 years watching him be Robot Dad. There's something about seeing a gentle, jovial, but strong person suddenly get serious that gives anyone that sees it a "jive just got real" feeling. "When a good man goes to war" and all that.

Like LordGigaIce was saying, it's doubtful that the writers realized that they were doing this, but they accidentally stumbled into good writing while trying to make a toy commercial.
 
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