Transformers: Age of the Primes toyline discussion || update: stock renders of upcoming Alpha Trion, Micronus, Flatline, Fireflight, Skydive, ++

[LBD "Nytetrayn"]

Cause cybertronians didn't have enough to fight over: now they can enjoy the religious war patch.

Beats Optimus sending the Allspark flying off for the quadrillionth time.

It's so funny to me how we're all now like "There can be multiple different origin myths, not everything must be beholden to one true mythology" when a mass refusal to even entertain that idea was a big reason behind the early fandom's hatred of the Oracle and Cybertron's organic core in Beast Machines: "How DARE this show ignore Primus and/or Vector Sigma!!! They're the TRUE origin lore for Transformers!!! Stop childing my ruinhood, Bob Skir!!!"

My, how times change.

(Disclaimer: Skir didn't come up with those concepts. Those were first developed by Marv Wolfman)

In fairness, I think something stops being a mere myth when they're actually here and doing stuff.

And back then, though it was kinda fluid between cartoon and comic, people seemed to see G1 as kind of the amorphous blob that Forward and DiTillio drew from for Beast Wars.

Probably not helped by G2 only have the comic follow-up to call on for any sort of lore, which might have made the comic lore the defacto "main" canon in some eyes, since the G2 cartoon was just repackaged G1 reruns.

Say what you will about the Wreckers comic, but I did like how it made all three more or less work together.

I'm surprised we haven't gotten a "They were created by time traveling humans from the future" origin yet. Unless it's in one of those continuities I missed.

I think that was GoBots.

 

[Tuxedo Prime]

I'm surprised we haven't gotten a "They were created by time traveling humans from the future" origin yet. Unless it's in one of those continuities I missed.

Not in anything official, but the "Tales from the Intermezzo" fanfictions had a story where Skyjack survives to the distant future, and uses a transwarp bomb to end an argument between two Advanced Future Posthumans.

Spoiler

One calmly accepts his fate, showing a bluish-white crystal that serves as his badge of office, noting that Skyjack had seen it before. The other, as the energies tear him apart and send his consciousness who-knows-when, shouts "YOU CANNOT DESTROY MY DESTINY!"

Shielded from the effects, Skyjack realizes that he, a barely remembered survivor of a long-extinct faction, has instead Set The Whole Thing In Motion....

 

[LordGigaIce]

The thing is... well... let's be honest. Actually building a realistic world where you'd have multiple religions, stories, and myths that don't all line up was never the point.
Back in the 80s Hasbro had no idea what this thing they had was, and probably didn't care that Marvel and Sunbow each had their own version of the Transformers' origin.
Once they started to care they began to streamline things down to one single origin. Quintus being among the Thirteen is Hasbro attempting to reconcile the Sunbow and Marvel origins. YMMV on how well that works, but that was the intent.

Then IDW began to explore their own mythology, and the Guiding Hand and Knights of Cybertron each came about before the Thirteen as a concept was really promoted, and then once they were IDW had to awkwardly push the Thirteen in their own mythology.
There was no "maybe the Guiding Hand, the Knights, and Thirteen are from different religions," or "maybe it reflects how IRL mythology can be contradictory," no. None of that. It was just three separate ideas that IDW- be it from a Hasbro mandate or their own editorial staff- had to streamline into something resembling a cogent mythological narrative. Again, YYMV on how well that worked, but that was the intent.

And since then... the franchise has been pretty dead set on Primus and the Thirteen, with Quintus and the Quintessons being a nod to Sunbow. Frankly I'd be shocked if we ever saw the "Knights of Cybertron" or "the Guiding Hand" again. They're relics, some of the last alternate takes before the great streamlining.

I'm not saying that every new Transfomers project will focus on, or even mention, the Thirteen. I am saying, however, that the ones that deem it necessary to touch on backstory are going to default to that. The Thirteen as Hasbro canonized them is far from perfect, we've all said plenty on that, but at this point it is The Single Founding Myth.
This tapestry of conflicting mythological origins that reflects IRL Earth? That was never the intent, and you're never going to see any TF fiction run with it. The intent was already to create a streamlined origin myth for the franchise, and while not perfect, that is what ended up happening.

 

[The Mighty Mollusk]

IDW1 mentions different religions (Drift is a Neo-Primalist, Cyclonus follows the Clavis Aurea, probably more I can't recall right now.......and then there's the DJD worshipping Megatron , if that counts), but it all kind of disappears into the background once MTMTE focuses on the Guiding Hand and the other ongoings got wrapped up in the Thirteen.

And then the Thirteen were a hoax created by a time-displaced Shockwave for no real reason other than to prove it was a hoax all along.

 

[lastmaximal]

I've gotten kind of lost over the last few pages, but I think there may be some separation in the discussion of what is, what the roots of this was, and what some might like to see done instead at some point. Or at least, that's what I'd rather respond to/engage in, rather than a conflation of those points.

 

[Tuxedo Prime]

And then the Thirteen were a hoax created by a time-displaced Shockwave for no real reason other than to prove it was a hoax all along.

Partially, yeah. There was also the Babylon 5 time travel angle of "He is from the future and knows that history fits together like a jigsaw puzzle", so Shockwave basically tells Alpha Trion to write it all down as he remembers history being told. Including "prophecies" about Starscream becoming leader of postwar Cybertron (and so it came to pass) and advice to younger Shockwave on where to plant Regenesis ores (and so it came to pass, because from Shockwave's perspective, he'd already done it).

It does create some ontological paradoxes, but IDW-2005-G1 Shockwave seems much better prepared for such things than Marvel-UK Shockwave.

(The latter's brain may have broken from the sheer WTF of Cyclonus -- usually a more competent warrior outside Headmasters anime -- pulling the whole "Oh Yeah? Well we're gonna kill you in twenty years!" bit. Time is complicated, but mostly in the grammar, as the late Douglas Adams once wrote.)

 

[NovaSaber]

Where does this idea that "nobody knows the truth" is parallel to real life even come from?
In real life, we do know a lot from science, history, and archeology; not everything, but enough to say that most detailed mythologies have been proven to not be literally true, and that most conspiracy theories (and some religions *coughMormonismcough*) should have known better before they existed in the first place.

So the realistic parallel would be if Transformers definitely knew they evolved from naturally occuring pulleys, gears, and levers; and belief that the first thirteen Transfomers were magically created by Primus was taken as seriously as creationism, with the idea of the Quintessons creating the Transformers being the equivalent of ancient aliens beliefs.

And realistically, the idea of different groups of Transformers coming from different members of the Thirteen should be not just false but known to be something someone intentionally made up to justify racism; the parallel to how in real life Christians who were trying to justify slavery claimed black people are the descendants of Ham.

 

[LordGigaIce]

IDW1 mentions different religions (Drift is a Neo-Primalist, Cyclonus follows the Clavis Aurea, probably more I can't recall right now.......and then there's the DJD worshipping Megatron , if that counts), but it all kind of disappears into the background once MTMTE focuses on the Guiding Hand and the other ongoings got wrapped up in the Thirteen.

And then the Thirteen were a hoax created by a time-displaced Shockwave for no real reason other than to prove it was a hoax all along.

The DJD were basically reddit schmucks who worshipped a dude after reading one manifesto.
The funny thing is that I'm pretty sure that was by design. Roberts had Megatron utterly decimate the DJD, both physically and verbally, painting them as fanatics and losers who let an ideology overwrite who they were and how sad that was. It was so on the nose I have to think it was Roberts pushing back against the DJD fanboys and fangirls in the fandom.

Anyway religion. Yes, IDW tried but it never really went anywhere? Like we know there are these sects how do they relate to each other? And it seemed like all roads led back to the Guiding Hand/Primus anyway. Which does work with IRL parallels, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all deriving from the same source for example. But you also have Hinduism, Shinto, etc... that have entirely different origins.

On one hand exploring something like that would be very cool, but on the other hand... it's probably not strictly the focus of anyone who wants to tell a Transformers story.
"There's one origin myth/religion and this is it" is far more efficient.

And yeah, Shockwave being Onyx was the final straw with me with IDW1. The nonsense had been building for a while, but that was it for me.

Where does this idea that "nobody knows the truth" is parallel to real life even come from?
In real life, we do know a lot from science, history, and archeology; not everything, but enough to say that most detailed mythologies have been proven to not be literally true, and that most conspiracy theories (and some religions *coughMormonismcough*) should have known better before they existed in the first place.

This seems rather dismissive of both people of faith who reconcile faith with science, and those who approach mythology from an Euhemerist perspective.

Also Transformers constantly having characters who are part of the Thirteen or Thirteen-adjacent ruins a lot of this potential.
Like if the Biblical Abraham were somehow still walking around you'd think we'd want to ask him some questions?

Meanwhile Alpha Trion just bums around Cybertron in a lot of continuities. Seems like he'd be great to ask about some of these questions!

 

[Blot]

Meanwhile Alpha Trion just bums around Cybertron in a lot of continuities. Seems like he'd be great to ask about some of these questions!

"I was there since the dawn of time!"
"Sure you were grandpa let's get you back to bed, Moonracer will even put your stories on."

 

[NovaSaber]

This seems rather dismissive of both people of faith who reconcile faith with science, and those who approach mythology from an Euhemerist perspective.

I don't see how. If they can "reconcile" anything that means they're not believing the parts that contradict what is actually known for a fact.
(Or they're rejecting the parts of science that their beliefs contradict, in which case, yes, they are in fact in the reality-denier category.)

And I'm definitely not dismissing Euhemerism itself (quite the opposite); I'm dismissing the idea that "events have been mythologized" means "we can no longer know the truth".

Also Transformers constantly having characters who are part of the Thirteen or Thirteen-adjacent ruins a lot of this potential.

Like if the Biblical Abraham were somehow still walking around you'd think we'd want to ask him some questions?

Meanwhile Alpha Trion just bums around Cybertron in a lot of continuities. Seems like he'd be great to ask about some of these questions!

This seems to be agreeing with the part of my post you actually quoted while disagreeing about the next part?

The part about making the beliefs that contradict atechnogenesis be just "pseudoscience" was in reference to the idea of reinventing it from the ground up to parallel reality as closely as possible.

You're absolutely correct that having some of the Thirteen still be around precludes applying that kind of reinvention to existing continuities; It's true, if there was some immortal who was demonstrably the same person as some figure from myth in the real world, that would make the known reality about that mythology very different from what it actually is.

 

[Sabrblade]

The thing about Alpha Trion still being alive and around is the main reason why The Ultimate Guide didn't include him among the then-known members of the Thirteen Original Transformers when it first established the concept. The book introduced the group as being so ancient that they all (minus The Fallen) died in the battle with Unicron, so none of them were alive or around in the present day. Yet, Alpha Trion was, so he wasn't supposed to be one of them, but rather a member of the first generations of normal Cybertronians first created only after the Thirteen.

Aaron Archer told me that the main reason they had decided to add him to the group was because of the fact that he was so old. That's it.

And what's more, prior to the Binder declaring him to be one of the Thirteen, the most prominent versions of Alpha Trion weren't just depicted as being so old, but also frail! He was anything but demigod-like. Yet, along comes Aligned and we get depictions of Alpha Trion in the Covenant book and the Cyberverse cartoon and the Titans Return toyline who are all suddenly built and buff, decked out in hulking armor and carrying massive swords like bodybuilder warlords, when that was never a thing beforehand, completely made-up in order to justify this fragile old geezer now suddenly being a cosmic sub-deity.

It'd be like if Hasbro suddenly decided that every new version of Kup was going to be like the Hulk from now on, never going back to his skinnier old design.

 

[LordGigaIce]

This seems to be agreeing with the part of my post you actually quoted while disagreeing about the next part?

Yes I thought you made some good points.
As a person of faith himself I thought you rode too hard to bash faith in and of itself, but overall I think you made some salient observations.

And I'm definitely not dismissing Euhemerism itself (quite the opposite); I'm dismissing the idea that "events have been mythologized" means "we can no longer know the truth".

I suppose in a completely digital society that might pan out... but speaking as a historian... it actually doesn't work out that well.

Like... we have shockingly little in the way of Norse mythology because written records didn't exist in a widespread way in the Germanic and Scandinavian lands until well into the process of Christianization. A lot from Celtic mythology is likewise lost forever.
Even the Greeks and Romans who wrote a lot down... were missing a ton because the passage of time is not kind to the written word. The Greek Dark Ages was a period of mass illiteracy in ancient Greece that unfortunately lines up with formative developments in Greek mythology.

Even in the realm of Abrahamic religions... so much of the Torah is oral history codified only thousands of years after the fact.

If any of these mythological stories were at any point birthed from real events, we will never know.

It frustrates me to know end. As a Jew I want to know how my religion started, how it truly started. I want to track that evolution. And I never know. The records just don't exist.
As a scholar I want to know what Norse and Celtic mythology was like before Christianization. I will never know. I want to know how the mythology and theology of Mycenaean Greece evolved into the classical Greek mythology we all know. But I'll never know that.

At a certain point, for all of our theories and research... we just don't know.

And that's frustrating.

How this translates to a species that should be able to back everything they know onto the Cloud is another matter...

 

[NovaSaber]

There were several reasons Alpha Trion being made one of the Thirteen was a bad idea, but even before he was, we still also had Liege Maximo, Vector Prime, and Nexus Prime, plus rumors about Macaddam.
So "The Fallen is the only one still alive" was false before they had any real concept of fleshing the Thirteen out at all.

 

[LordGigaIce]

There were several reasons Alpha Trion being made one of the Thirteen was a bad idea, but even before he was, we still also had Liege Maximo, Vector Prime, and Nexus Prime, plus rumors about Macaddam.
So "The Fallen is the only one still alive" was false before they had any real concept of fleshing the Thirteen out at all.

Nothing about fleshing out the Thirteen made any sense from a real world perspective.

I'd say Alpha Trion was the most egregious just because of how prominent he can be.

 

[Sabrblade]

There were several reasons Alpha Trion being made one of the Thirteen was a bad idea, but even before he was, we still also had Liege Maximo, Vector Prime, and Nexus Prime, plus rumors about Macaddam.
So "The Fallen is the only one still alive" was false before they had any real concept of fleshing the Thirteen out at all.

Vector and Nexus weren't created until after The Ultimate Guide first introduced the group as a concept. Furman had more plans to flesh out his original vision of the Thirteen before Dreamwave went under.

One of those plans was to reveal Grimlock to be direct descendant of the Thirteen (because of course Furman would do that), and the reveal would have come in the form of Seeker Grimlock:

But we'll never know what else he was going to do since he never got the chance, what with Hasbro confiscating the Thirteen concept shortly after.

 

[Shadewing]

And what's more, prior to the Binder declaring him to be one of the Thirteen, the most prominent versions of Alpha Trion weren't just depicted as being so old, but also frail! He was anything but demigod-like. Yet, along comes Aligned and we get depictions of Alpha Trion in the Covenant book and the Cyberverse cartoon and the Titans Return toyline who are all suddenly built and buff, decked out in hulking armor and carrying massive swords like bodybuilder warlords, when that was never a thing beforehand, completely made-up in order to justify this fragile old geezer now suddenly being a cosmic sub-deity.

My own Head Cannon to this is that Alpha Trion is "I don't want people to know me" Name, and him being the frail old man is an act. As one of the Thirteen, he was Alpha Prime. Since the majority had Prime in their names, it makes sense he would have as well.

 

[LordGigaIce]

My own Head Cannon to this is that Alpha Trion is "I don't want people to know me" Name, and him being the frail old man is an act. As one of the Thirteen, he was Alpha Prime. Since the majority had Prime in their names, it makes sense he would have as well.

Yeah he's Alpha Trion your friendly old librarian who can't move that well don't mind him. What? Demi-god? One of the original Primes? That's silly.

I hate everything about this picture.

 

[The Mighty Mollusk]

My own Head Cannon to this is that Alpha Trion is "I don't want people to know me" Name, and him being the frail old man is an act. As one of the Thirteen, he was Alpha Prime. Since the majority had Prime in their names, it makes sense he would have as well.

 

[LordGigaIce]

That would actually work quite well given the relationship between Alpha Trion and Optimus in G1.

 

[Shadewing]

I had honestly debated making that comparison in my post.