Traitor Watch - The 45 & 47 Thread

[Xaaron]

Yeah, what just happened with Deathy is a microcosm of why the Democrats lost and why they will continue to lose for the foreseeable future.

* Caveat up front -- I voted Blue up and down the ballot because I fear for our democracy. * But I understand why they lost.

All Deathy said was he voted for Trump because it was best for his family. Maybe it was an economic issue. Nobody cared. Nobody was interested in his reasons. They just attacked him until he went away. Congratulations -- now your safe space is a little smaller and a little less permeable.

Democrat voters, take this mantra to heart -- Arrogance is the Luxury of Winners. Really let that sink in.

Progressives have been riding high on the idea that Obama's tenure gave them a mandate in this country, when its increasingly clear Obama was an anomaly to 21st century politics. Since Hillary, Democrats have acted as if they no longer need to explain or justify their views. They could be dismissive of anyone who doesn't agree because this country had a liberal / progressive majority. Well, silent majority. Well...maybe a plurality.

You are the minority. Your views are the minority. The majority of the country would rather have Donald Trump as President than agree with you. Best case scenario, if democracy survives the next 4 years, the Republicans will run someone more electable than Trump (because...that's literally anyone), and Democrats will lose again. And again. And again. Unless they start listening to the people who currently won't vote for them.

Democrats need to talk to people who voted for Trump. They need to listen and find out why. They need to actively convince people why voting Blue instead of Red in 2, or 4 years is better for them. They need to be contrite and accommodating because that's what you do when you're losing and need to change people's minds in order to win. Scoffing in their faces, rolling your eyes, and leaving them to figure out their mistakes on their own DOESN'T WORK.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying you have to listen to people like Deathy or agree with them. I'm saying that...as the LOSERS...the onus is on you to convince people that you're right for next time. By definition, humility is humiliating, but it has its purpose.

Deathy lost nothing just now. YOU lost a potential swing voter for next election if you heard him out and made a convincing counter-argument.

 

[Tuxedo Prime]

Counter-counter-point:
https://www.wonkette.com/p/these-people-voted-for-trump-because

 

[Xaaron]

Believe me, I understand that article's feelings. I unfollowed someone the day after the Election when they posted two images on their feed. The 1st was one of those "We'll still be friends after the election because I'm more mature than that" images, and the 2nd was a wiener dog dancing in a "F**K HARRIS" T-Shirt. Disingenuous people exist, yes.

But that article was about "Why should we stay friends with Trump voters?" My point is more about "Why should we court their votes?" Cutting people out on a personal level is different from engaging with them on a political level. You don't have to be friends with someone to listen to their point of view, and look for a way to change it. An impersonal political forum online may even be the best and safest way to do that.

 

[Steevy Maximus]

I honestly can't think of what policy proposal of Trump's you could be craving for your family. He campaigned on so little. Deportations and Tariffs.

Trump campaigned on the IDEA that tariffs would result in lower prices across the board (and bring back domestic blue collar jobs). The reality of that being false doesn’t change the fact the IDEA was sold to a lot of people successfully. Again, I feel myself fairly knowledgable, but even my limited following of the election basically broke Harris down to “Trump is bad and Bad for democracy”. Great, how is that going to impact ME? (I know the impacts, but that self-centered attitude is prevalent in the US).
Trump, for however unlikely he is to be able to accomplish a fraction of what he promised, still made tangible promises with tangible benefits.


I’m glad UM13 and Xaaron spoke up. I’ve been struggling to find the wording to express my…discomfort with some forum members‘ actions with Deathy. I don’t necessarily share his views, but there is NO reason to rush to insult him or, worse, the purported hateful DMs. That’s the kind of crap Trump’s supporters have been mocked for around here.
We might be mostly liberal here, “our side” might have lost, but that doesn’t mean we should debase ourselves to mock someone who doesn’t share our views.

 

[Ultra Magnus13]

Yeah, what just happened with Deathy is a microcosm of why the Democrats lost and why they will continue to lose for the foreseeable future.

* Caveat up front -- I voted Blue up and down the ballot because I fear for our democracy. * But I understand why they lost.

All Deathy said was he voted for Trump because it was best for his family. Maybe it was an economic issue. Nobody cared. Nobody was interested in his reasons. They just attacked him until he went away. Congratulations -- now your safe space is a little smaller and a little less permeable.

Democrat voters, take this mantra to heart -- Arrogance is the Luxury of Winners. Really let that sink in.

Progressives have been riding high on the idea that Obama's tenure gave them a mandate in this country, when its increasingly clear Obama was an anomaly to 21st century politics. Since Hillary, Democrats have acted as if they no longer need to explain or justify their views. They could be dismissive of anyone who doesn't agree because this country had a liberal / progressive majority. Well, silent majority. Well...maybe a plurality.

You are the minority. Your views are the minority. The majority of the country would rather have Donald Trump as President than agree with you. Best case scenario, if democracy survives the next 4 years, the Republicans will run someone more electable than Trump (because...that's literally anyone), and Democrats will lose again. And again. And again. Unless they start listening to the people who currently won't vote for them.

Democrats need to talk to people who voted for Trump. They need to listen and find out why. They need to actively convince people why voting Blue instead of Red in 2, or 4 years is better for them. They need to be contrite and accommodating because that's what you do when you're losing and need to change people's minds in order to win. Scoffing in their faces, rolling your eyes, and leaving them to figure out their mistakes on their own DOESN'T WORK.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying you have to listen to people like Deathy or agree with them. I'm saying that...as the LOSERS...the onus is on you to convince people that you're right for next time. By definition, humility is humiliating, but it has its purpose.

Deathy lost nothing just now. YOU lost a potential swing voter for next election if you heard him out and made a convincing counter-argument.

Thank you.

I'd started typing up a similar post several times, but was struggling to properly articulate it. You have done so better, than I ever would.

Post Obama, the Democratic party hasn't courted voters by showing how great they are and what they have to offer. They have essentially just been engaging in political negging. They have just said "look how bad THAT guy is! If you vote for him your a Nazi or an idiot."

They have pandered far too much to the vocal "terminally" online crowd. I believe most of the United States is pro choice. Most people understand it is something that should be available. Most (not all) of the Right has moderated away from a fully anti abortion stance. Most are somewhere in the "safe, legal, rare" "states rights" or "first trimester" camp. I think most Americans are more pro choice than this. But when faced with the Democrats who are associated with people celebrating abortions they feel the Republicans view lines up closer to there own.

 

[Dekafox]

Trump campaigned on the IDEA that tariffs would result in lower prices across the board (and bring back domestic blue collar jobs). The reality of that being false doesn’t change the fact the IDEA was sold to a lot of people successfully. Again, I feel myself fairly knowledgable, but even my limited following of the election basically broke Harris down to “Trump is bad and Bad for democracy”. Great, how is that going to impact ME? (I know the impacts, but that self-centered attitude is prevalent in the US).

This was why I suggested if we make the Dem thread name snarky we go with "At least we aren't the other guy" - I saw some stuff regarding abortons, but all the messaging I recall was more about what they were against than what they were for. Switching gears to Harris did reinvigorate core Dems, but since she was dancing the tightrope of "I want credit for all the Biden things people like, while dodgeballing any people didn't" I don't know that what they were for besides safe abortion access etc was really made as clear as it could have been to the masses. Especially not in a simple one minute soundbyte way. "We're gonna keep the status quo because things are getting better" doesn't help if people don't think the status quo is actually good for them, regardless of whether it actually is.

 

[CoffeeHorse]

I agree with this. People have the right to be terrified right now, but this is not the way. We can't give up on debate. I still believe Democrats would win a policy debate every time. So many of our positions are already more popular but this is how it ends up.

I had no confidence in Harris going into this, but she surprised me when she finally started talking about policy. I was starting to think I underestimated her. She might have this. But then the donors started screeching "How dare you talk about price gouging that we've even publicly admitted we're doing!", and she clammed up. For the rest of the campaign every focus group screamed "Please tell us more" but she was seemingly afraid to get bit again.

I saw something different happening locally. Democrats had some fantastic candidates this year. I got to meet a few. They didn't say anything about being Democrats. No labels. No judgment. No team slogans. No vibes. Just "Here's all the specific ways you're getting screwed right now, and here's what I'm going to do about it." It was good stuff, and it worked. We stayed blue while frigging Miami-Dade flipped red.


On the other hand, having a debate on policy as if it's just academic is a privilege not everyone has right now.

 

[Axaday]

Dogpiling Deathy was rude, but he didn't just appear out of nowhere yesterday. He has posted a lot of nothing comments in the last couple of weeks. Never saying anything except some version of "Not everyone thinks so"

 

[wonko the sane?]

Tangentially related: vance is threatening to pull the US out of nato... if the EU imposes regulations over disinformation on twitter.

We're all going to die to musk can make money.

 

[Pale Rider]

No. I'm not doing this.

I refuse to bow to the fragile fee-fees of Trump supporters anymore.

He was bad enough in 2016, but he was still a relative unknown.

After his attempted coup on January 6, 2021, only an idiot or a traitor (or both) would still support him.

Gaslight someone else. I've had it.

 

[M. Virion]

Trump's administration has been very open about its plans with the LGBTQ+ community. Especially the trans community. They want to legislate, or worse, us out of existence.

I don't have the luxury of kindness or empathy on this issue. If you have a problem with that, do feel free to put me on ignore, because I won't be adapting my position.

I've tried for decades to reason with people opposed to my existence, it has not worked. I'm in survival mode now, and your tired and laughable finger wagging is falling on deaf ears. This isn't an academic exercise, it's my continued existence.

Deathy said he made a call 'for his family' sure, he also explicitly said he couldn't take into consideration other people's issues - the problem is, at least for me, we're not discussing tax breaks or subsidies. We're talking about elected officials intent on ENDING people like me. If he meant it or not what he told me with that statement is that didn't care if I lived or died.

I can't be kind in response to that, I don't know what more to tell you. My best friend planned on killing herself over this, thankfully she's been convinced not to, but I'm still terrified I'm going to wake up to a phone call from her mom at any point going forward, and I'll just lose her - and there'll be nothing I can do. I don't know how I manage to survive that myself, if it happens. So again, go chide someone else, I'm not ******* listening.

 

[Pocket]

All Deathy said was he voted for Trump because it was best for his family. Maybe it was an economic issue. Nobody cared. Nobody was interested in his reasons.

Including him. If he was actually interested in having a discussion, he would have attempted to contribute more than that. But like most of Trump's base, he's so convinced that he's right and that it's so self-evident that he's right that it would be a waste of time to go any more in detail than that. So he just does the equivalent of honking at us and pointing to his bumper sticker as he drives past and off into the sunset. People like that are no different from the "NPCs" they love to accuse us of being for daring to have a different opinion than theirs.

 

[wonko the sane?]

The majority of the voters in the last election made it clear that they either willingly, deliberately, intentionally chose to not know what trump was all about, or they DID know, and voted for him anyway.

If this was the 1800's, and it was easy to hide what you said, and the horrible things you did in other communities; I wouldn't be pissed at the former group. It's not, and I am. There was absolutely no excuse to believe any of trumps lies, and certainly not because "well, he promised". Most people have access to the sum total of human knowledge in their hands, and when they chose to only believe twitter and OAN when it LITERALLY TAKE FIVE SECONDS to check: that is a massive failing on their part.

It's killing me that deathy's family is going to suffer because he cannot think or act critically. Because he chose to believe a proven liar, thief and rapist.

 

[Pale Rider]

FB friend:

You know how haters on YouTube will say that the latest Marvel movie is "awful" based on what their favourite influencers told them, even though they didn't watch it?

Imagine them applying that same behaviour to politics, and the 2024 election makes more sense.

How is the average voter so lacking in the faculty of reason that he can't tell someone is bullshitting when he uses phrases like "destroying America"? When someone says that his political opponents want to destroy the country they live in, that is an utterly moronic statement that should instantly disqualify its speaker as a person who can't be taken seriously.

Sure, someone might want to alter the country he lives in, or destroy certain institutions within that country, or even hurt other people, but nobody (much less a huge group of people counting in the millions) wants to actually "destroy" the country they live in. As soon as someone uses that kind of rhetoric, they're obviously morons, and it's deeply depressing to me that millions of people cannot figure out something so obvious.

It's hard to deny that Democrats botched this election, but it's also hard to deny that this election was influenced by billionaires, foreign interference, and rampant general stupidity. When people only bother to look up "what is a tariff" on or after the day of the election, it's pretty obvious that they're going in blind and stupid, because of their own laziness.

It turns out that evil people don't just triumph when good people stay silent: they also triumph when most of the people are stupid and lazy, and allow themselves to be passively programmed by their preferred media.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

It's just weird because where you'd think they'd be like "The Left calls us Nazis because they are out of ideas", some of them just go "Yeah, what of it?"

In a related vein, I'm getting tired of folks saying (in essence) "stop calling us names. That's why we didn't vote for you."

I can acknowledge that people don't respond well to being told they're awful people without agreeing that, when certain people (especially the leaders) are awful, no one should tell the truth and say so.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

All I’m asking for is a bit of fairness in thread titles. It makes this place less welcoming for someone who doesn’t share a certain point of view. I try to treat all sides with respect. All opinions are welcome in my book and healthy debate is a good thing. I don’t think this name calling and “grab the pitchforks” attitude does anyone any good.

I’d say it never used to be like this, but maybe I just didn’t notice it when my politics leaned left. Who knows for sure? All I know is that I’m not someone who would treat anyone’s personal or political philosophy that way, whether they agree with me or not, and whether my side is in power or not.

I don’t think a little decorum is too much to ask.

All I hear is someone arguing for false equivalences. That's not okay.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

I’m going to bow out of the Politics forum. I probably shouldn’t ever have come in here at all. This really isn’t a place for opposing viewpoints.

You can voice other viewpoints, but if you fail to acknowledge reality, it won't get you anywhere.

 

[NovaSaber]

All Deathy said was he voted for Trump because it was best for his family.

He also said that the thread title should be changed to "respect" the corrupt bigoted fascist who just got elected.

the Republicans will run someone more electable than Trump (because...that's literally anyone)

Normal Republicans are not more electable than Trump.

Even when he lost he got more votes than other Republicans since Reagan, and he just became only the second Republican to win the popular vote since 1988.

I don't understand his popularity, but it undeniably exists.

, and Democrats will lose again. And again. And again. Unless they start listening to the people who currently won't vote for them.

Yes, they need to listen to those who don't vote at all, and to those who voted for other Democrats but not for Harris.
However, between those two, trying to appeal to those who don't always vote at all is more crucial than trying to change the minds of those who sometimes vote against them.

Meanwhile, we literally just saw proof that trying to appeal to those who never vote for them is just a waste of time. Because doing that was Harris's strategy and it failed to win any significant number of them over.

The idea that this of all elections was one in which the Democrats didn't listen to Republicans enough is just...where does that even come from?
They lost because they didn't listen to the people who were saying that Harris sounded more like Trump-lite than like the opposite of Trump.

Democrats need to talk to people who voted for Trump. They need to listen and find out why. They need to actively convince people why voting Blue instead of Red in 2, or 4 years is better for them.

Which points that need to be made haven't already been?

If we were talking about reaching a wide audience that contains people who haven't heard it all before, I would agree that making sure the facts get additional reach is obviously good.

But talking specifically to someone who essentially said that he does know Trump is bad for immigrants and LGBTQ+ people and just doesn't care because he is putting some other reason before human rights concerns? What's the point?
He already knows, and you can't convince someone to care by just repeating yourself.

 

[G.B.Blackrock]

Believe me, I understand that article's feelings. I unfollowed someone the day after the Election when they posted two images on their feed. The 1st was one of those "We'll still be friends after the election because I'm more mature than that" images, and the 2nd was a wiener dog dancing in a "F**K HARRIS" T-Shirt. Disingenuous people exist, yes.

But that article was about "Why should we stay friends with Trump voters?" My point is more about "Why should we court their votes?" Cutting people out on a personal level is different from engaging with them on a political level. You don't have to be friends with someone to listen to their point of view, and look for a way to change it. An impersonal political forum online may even be the best and safest way to do that.

I've already said some things that make known I don't agree here, but I will absolutely say that, when I assert that having opposing viewpoints is still okay (certain people's statements notwithstanding), this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You're actually engaging the discussion.

 

[Ultra Magnus13]

FB friend:
How is the average voter so lacking in the faculty of reason that he can't tell someone is bullshitting when he uses phrases like "destroying America"? When someone says that his political opponents want to destroy the country they live in, that is an utterly moronic statement that should instantly disqualify its speaker as a person who can't be taken seriously.

Sure, someone might want to alter the country he lives in, or destroy certain institutions within that country, or even hurt other people, but nobody (much less a huge group of people counting in the millions) wants to actually "destroy" the country they live in. As soon as someone uses that kind of rhetoric, they're obviously morons, and it's deeply depressing to me that millions of people cannot figure out something so obvious.

Lol, this is literally the play that both the Dems and the Republicans ran this time. The difference being Republicans had a back up play, and Democrats went all in on "other guy will destroy America!"