Nobody has the intention to invade Ukraine
- Thread starter Nevermore
- Start date
The problem is the alternative is to just let Putin have Ukraine (Like ol' Musky recommended) because the POSSIBILITY he'd go genocidal madman.
We establish that precedent and suddenly those games from like a decade ago involving North Korea landing an invasion in San Fransisco becomes a lot more plausible.
That survey also needs to ask WHY they believe it. Because if it's just repetition: then germany needs to repeat "It's an illegal, immoral, unnecessary war" more often.
Sadly: I disagree. The problem isn't the propaganda, the problem is the peoples critical thinking skills. Because in a free world: russia has just as much right to broadcast whatever crap they want (kinda like the US does.) as the people do to have choice in media.
And while russia is a tyranny, we're still required to hold them to the standards we hold ourselves to.
And while russia is a tyranny, we're still required to hold them to the standards we hold ourselves to.
Freedom of speech means they can say whatever they want, but people do not have to listen. Force people to listen to X, and that's no longer freedom of speech.
Freedom of Speech is also not Freedom of Consequences(which is something certain parties refuse to acknowledge when they trumpet about it, like a certain King Twit). The consequences is the so-called "cancel culture" the majority of the time.
The real problem is that just like you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink without drowning them, you can't make people think. Especially if their emotions get involved and overrule their judgement. Block out one spewer of lies and they'll either work around your block, or switch to a different one that matches their biases, due to said emotional investment.. Pepper the lies with enough truths and half-truths, and you can paint yourself as the persecuted to anyone who isn't paying attention. (It also doesn't help that with how much mental bandwidth modern life uses up, a lot of people can't spare any attention to find the actual truth, so they'll stick with the first thing they hear that "feels" right to them, true or not.)
Freedom of Speech is also not Freedom of Consequences(which is something certain parties refuse to acknowledge when they trumpet about it, like a certain King Twit). The consequences is the so-called "cancel culture" the majority of the time.
The real problem is that just like you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink without drowning them, you can't make people think. Especially if their emotions get involved and overrule their judgement. Block out one spewer of lies and they'll either work around your block, or switch to a different one that matches their biases, due to said emotional investment.. Pepper the lies with enough truths and half-truths, and you can paint yourself as the persecuted to anyone who isn't paying attention. (It also doesn't help that with how much mental bandwidth modern life uses up, a lot of people can't spare any attention to find the actual truth, so they'll stick with the first thing they hear that "feels" right to them, true or not.)
Everybody has the right to spread lies. Everyone ELSE has the right to tell the liars to pound sand and shut the hell up.
This is a huge cultural difference between NA(espeically US) and EU. NA tends to be more absolutist towards Freedom of Speech, while EU tends to view it with more nuance.
And what do you do if the liars are good enough at lying (and powerful enough) to shout those "everyone else"s down?
An unregulated marketplace of ideas is just as dangerous as any other unregulated market.
The idea(or fear, really) is that the Good Guys aren't always in control. Say you heavily restrict speech, in ways most people consider good, and things are going fine - but then actual Nazis take control of the government and immediately use their control to literally reverse what is allowed and what isn't. Thus, by going freedom of speech(but not consequences) you have a middle ground where society determines what is allowed, rather than a single faction.
And when you're looking at potential government takeover from people who WILL use their power to ban books, discussion, even words about things that are not harmful, it starts sounding really appealing.
The argument against it is what you just said, that the Bad Guys can just amplify their message. We know they aren't against dirty tricks. It's arguably both easier and more difficult than in the past too, because while the mass media is far less entrenched than it used to be, you can have bot networks and such amplify things in the social media that has sprung up instead - and I honestly can't say which it is myself.
Hopefully that helps in understanding where the idea is coming from? (Ignoring cultural inertia from the Constitution enshrining it and "America Rah Rah Rah" making it a cultural thing)
And when you're looking at potential government takeover from people who WILL use their power to ban books, discussion, even words about things that are not harmful, it starts sounding really appealing.
The argument against it is what you just said, that the Bad Guys can just amplify their message. We know they aren't against dirty tricks. It's arguably both easier and more difficult than in the past too, because while the mass media is far less entrenched than it used to be, you can have bot networks and such amplify things in the social media that has sprung up instead - and I honestly can't say which it is myself.
Hopefully that helps in understanding where the idea is coming from? (Ignoring cultural inertia from the Constitution enshrining it and "America Rah Rah Rah" making it a cultural thing)
My counterpoint to this is that if actual Nazis take control of the government, they're gonna enact whatever terrible laws they want regardless of what they're "allowed" to do because a disregard for society's standards of decency is part and parcel of being Nazis.
Agreed: which is why the unmitigated liars need oversight to ensure they can't.
That sentence ends there, by the way. Can't lie, can't steal, can't find a medium in which to spread their heinous lies. Can't.
But it's also on us, as individuals to keep our critical thinking sharp to ensure that even when those liars find venue (cause they will, they are liars, after all.) we're smart enough to think "I should double check this, seems right, but not quite enough", and it's up to our respective governments and schools systems to TEACH critical thinking, and reinforce that teaching at every. *******. level of education. I don't care if you've three ******* PHDs already: to get number 4 you must take AND PASS "critical thought in the contemporary era" and "fool me once, shame on you 102". No exceptions.
And it's also up to our respective systems to find, treat and if necessary: punish the compulsory liars so as to discourage that kind of fabrications being used as means to accumulate power and wealth. There's a LOT of systemic reforms that need to be done: taking corporate money out of campaigning, limiting campaign finances, ending lobbying (in general.), psychological testing and revue for political candidates, civics testing for candidates, police background checks for candidates, ethics and morality testing for candidates, mandatory and RIDICULOUSLY STRICT truth in advertising laws. All of it needs to be public and VERY transparent: because the voting public needs to know WHY, the actual reason WHY candidate McGuffin has suddenly decided that the thing he's been working for since he was in high school is longer his raison d'etre.
If we want a system that actually rewards honesty, then we need to REQUIRE honesty from our leaders: even if that means they're being honest with a gun to their heads.
uh oh
www.huffpost.com
U.S. Official: Russian Missiles Crossed Into Poland, Killing 2
Polish media reported that two people died Tuesday afternoon after a projectile struck an area where grain was drying in Przewodów.
This is… Not good.