Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Thylacine 2000

Well-known member
Citizen
In general, on TRT it could easily be either, or both. In this particular case, the clip is real but their summary is false.

Netanyahu was talking in the middle of the Second Intifada, when he was not in government, and when Israel was getting regular suicide bombings inside civilian targets. He said "We should strike back painfully," which should shock somewhere between zero and negative-1 people on Earth. He was not saying he would "undermine" the Oslo Accords - he said (correctly) that Oslo had said Israel could keep "military sites" in the West Bank, but it did not define what those were, and so he urged they take the broadest possible interpretation of what a military site could be.

It is, as the kids say, a nothingburger.
 
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Spin-Out

terminal shitposter
Citizen
TRT is the Turkish equivalent of RT; it's a propaganda mill a fascist dictator uses to sow division among foreign leftists so other fascists (trump, for example) have an easier time getting elected.
 

Thylacine 2000

Well-known member
Citizen
At about 00:40, that video says Gazans have 2-3 liters of water per day, and it's polluted too.

Let's bear that in mind as we look at some images of Gaza that weren't meant for Western eyes.

Here's an astounding video from 2017, that I hope every single person in this thread will watch. It was made after at least 3 major rounds of conflict in Gaza, including Operation Protective Edge in 2014 that was discussed at long and angry length here.


It was also made years after the United Nations began to warn Gaza would become "uninhabitable" by 2020:

Were they lying? Exaggerating? Didn't know what they were talking about? Or was there a Palestinian Thanos Snap that eliminated them four years ago, nobody noticed, and actually there's no one left for Israel to kill? These are the expert sources we are supposed to trust when judging the conflict today. How much water has Gaza really had all this time? Who can we trust?





 

NovaSaber

Well-known member
Citizen
It was also made years after the United Nations began to warn Gaza would become "uninhabitable" by 2020:

Were they lying? Exaggerating? Didn't know what they were talking about? Or was there a Palestinian Thanos Snap that eliminated them four years ago, nobody noticed, and actually there's no one left for Israel to kill? These are the expert sources we are supposed to trust when judging the conflict today. How much water has Gaza really had all this time? Who can we trust?
Aside from the fact that the words "uninhabitable" and "unliveable" are certainly hyperbole (climate predictions saying tropical areas could become "uninhabitable" in this century don't mean that no people would be living there either), they said "could".
The most precise sentence quoted there is "The social, health and security-related ramifications of the high population density and overcrowding are among the factors that may render Gaza unliveable by 2020, if present trends continue".

Honestly, I just can't see/hear "we can't trust the experts because a worst-case scenario warning was not a 100% accurate prophecy" and not immediately recognize it as the favorite fallacy of climate change deniers.

As for your specific "counterexamples":
1. They're all for the wealthy (and/or foreigners) (inequality doesn't mean the average people are doing fine, it just reapportions the blame)
2. Stuff built in 2010 doesn't disprove that things got worse after that (again, at most they deserve a share of the blame for why things got worse)
 

Thylacine 2000

Well-known member
Citizen
I just can't see/hear "we can't trust the experts because a worst-case scenario warning was not a 100% accurate prophecy" and not immediately recognize it as the favorite fallacy of climate change deniers.

I'd say the Rapture is a better match. We were assured these people would disappear, then, whoops, nm.

We should only be so lucky to have a dispute over hard science principles known since the 1850s which function the same for everyone in the world and which any 3rd grader can independently demonstrate with common household ingredients. Instead we are talking about life in a closed society with no free press, run by a religious fundamentalist fascist army, as analyzed by foreign charity groups with minimal accountability and in many cases a documented history of hostility and bad faith towards one or another of the sides.
 

Spin-Out

terminal shitposter
Citizen
I'd say the Rapture is a better match. We were assured these people would disappear, then, whoops, nm.

We should only be so lucky to have a dispute over hard science principles known since the 1850s which function the same for everyone in the world and which any 3rd grader can independently demonstrate with common household ingredients. Instead we are talking about life in a closed society with no free press, run by a religious fundamentalist fascist army, as analyzed by foreign charity groups with minimal accountability and in many cases a documented history of hostility and bad faith towards one or another of the sides.
this is you right now:
1700860781929.png
 

PrimalxConvoy

NOT a New Member.
Citizen
I also seem to remember that North Korea, a so-called "poor" country, has a luxury hotel or two, luxury shops and other such amenities. Things the "corrupt regime/ignorant western press" seem unable to acknowledge.

This obviously means that North Korea is obviously doing "just fine" and its people aren't starving to death.

That's why all the links below are obviously just "ignorant propaganda", right? They can't all be right.

Right?







 
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MrBlud

Well-known member
Citizen
I mean, the US (as a rule) tends to largely obey the rules of war.

That doesn’t mean the occasional “Abu Ghraib” or “My Lai” doesn’t slip through.

Nobody waging war likes or wants the press there regardless.
 

Spin-Out

terminal shitposter
Citizen
I mean, the US (as a rule) tends to largely obey the rules of war.

That doesn’t mean the occasional “Abu Ghraib” or “My Lai” doesn’t slip through.

Nobody waging war likes or wants the press there regardless.
they aren't talking about the US army, tho. they're talking about IDF
 

Teufel

Active member
Citizen
FB friend: An army that's following the rules wouldn't be so determined to keep the international press from seeing what they're doing.

The IDF has had international press from CNN, NBC, UK's Channel 4, and ABC with them in Gaza, so far under standards that don't seem any different than other past military embeds.


Diamond, meanwhile, elaborated on the subject on CNN’s podcast about the war, saying he was asked to delete one piece of footage that showed sensitive military technology. “Beyond that, [they] asked us to blur images of maps, faces of soldiers, and anything that could potentially compromise the location of this specific base. But these are typical conditions, when any military takes you with them into a combat zone,” he said.

Sig Christenson, a military reporter for the San Antonio Express-News who was formerly embedded in Iraq and Afghanistan, agrees that such conditions—obscuring information that could lead to soldiers’ harm—are standard procedure. “We agreed to live by some rules which were pretty sensible rules,” said Christenson, a co-founder and current chair of the nonprofit Military Reporters & Editors. “Like, you don’t tell people where exactly you are. You don’t tell your readers or your viewers exactly how many troops you are with—those are sensible rules.”

And it's not like they're censoring everything that doesn't show them in an absolutely positive light.

On November 8, Britain’s Channel 4 aired a six-minute-long report by Secunder Kermani, who was embedded with the IDF and subject to similar reporting conditions to those from U.S. media outlets. His report included an interview with a lieutenant colonel, just as a CNN report had done, but he went further by also including footage of the IDF monitoring the mass displacement of Palestinians from Gaza City and an interview with a Palestinian refugee who expressed frustration and sorrow over Israel’s assault.
 
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Teufel

Active member
Citizen
Also, that tweet gives us little to go on. It's an unaffiliated journalist providing no real details of the raid or the man's death and immediately following it up with another tweet "Israel is a rogue nation." I know expecting neutrality from journalists is passe by today's standards, and it doesn't mean an unarmed doctor wasn't killed by the IDF, but I prefer sources who aren't actively telling me what to think and proudly proclaiming their biased framing. He later posted a video interview with who is supposed to be the father providing an account of the shooting, but there are no logos and he never identified the source. He doesn't claim it's his video and skimming his timeline he doesn't seem to be based out of the West Bank and regularly posts videos from global hotspots with no sources given. As a general rule, unsourced videos from half a world away on social media confirming your priors are exactly the ones you should be most wary of. I don't speak Arabic, but upon watching the video noticed when the word "mujahideen" is clearly spoken nothing seems to correspond to it in the subtitles. Does that omission leave out any important context? Maybe an IDF sniper shot this doctor when he was trying to treat someone, but this isn't a credible news source making a case towards it or doing much to inform me one way or another.

One of the odd features of this conflict is some people on the left being highly skeptical and critical of anything Israel says while turning around and taking anything & everything from an anti-Israel perspective at face value and throwing all that skepticism right out the window.

One example.

Human Rights Watch repeating Hamas' Health Ministry propaganda about the al-Ahli hospital bombing claiming the Israelis murdred 500 people


Human Rights Watch reporting their findings after an actual investigation


It was a Palestinian rocket, not the IDF

(Jerusalem) – The explosion that killed and injured many civilians at al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza on October 17, 2023, resulted from an apparent rocket-propelled munition, such as those commonly used by Palestinian armed groups, that hit the hospital grounds, Human Rights Watch said today. While misfires are frequent, further investigation is needed to determine who launched the apparent rocket and whether the laws of war were violated.

However, the sound preceding the explosion, the fireball that accompanied it, the size of the resulting crater, the type of splatter adjoining it, and the type and pattern of fragmentation visible around the crater are all consistent with the impact of a rocket.

Evidence available to Human Rights Watch makes the possibility of a large air-dropped bomb, such as those Israel has used extensively in Gaza, highly unlikely. The Israeli military has dropped thousands of such bombs across the Gaza Strip since October 7.

The 500 person death toll was grossly exaggerated.

At 6:59 p.m. that day, a type of munition that Human Rights Watch has not been able to conclusively identify hit a paved area inside the hospital compound, between a parking lot and a landscaped area where many civilians congregated to seek safety from Israeli strikes. The Ministry of Health in Gaza reported that 471 people were killed and 342 injured. Human Rights Watch was unable to corroborate the count, which is significantly higher than other estimates, displays an unusually high killed-to-injured ratio, and appears out of proportion with the damage visible on site.

Hamas collected evidence from the crater and at different points since has said no evidence survived and also the evidence we'll release soon proves it was the IDF , besides we don't have rockets that could cause that damage anyway [they do.]

A Hamas official said the remnants would “soon be shown to the world.” More than a month after the events, this has not happened. Ghazi Hamad, a senior Hamas leader and deputy minister in the Hamas-led Gaza governing authority, told the media on October 22 that “the missile has dissolved like salt in the water.… It’s vaporized. Nothing is left.” Human Rights Watched noted that substantial portions of munitions typically survive a detonation, even if parts of munitions are designed to break apart and may be made unrecognizable by thermal damage.

On November 25, Bassam Naim, head of the political and foreign relations department of Hamas, responded to several of the questions about the October 17 explosion that Human Rights Watch had sent to the Ministry of Interior in Gaza. He said that the ministry’s investigation of the strike had been slowed by the ongoing hostilities but that “the preliminary information we have definitively points to Israel’s responsibility.” He said that Israeli authorities warned the hospital to evacuate “hours” before the explosion and claimed that “no Palestinian resistance faction – to our knowledge – has among its weapons a projectile or a rocket of the destructive power capable of killing a large number of people as the bomb used in this incident of targeting” the hospital.

Human Rights Watch found that a rocket such as the larger types fired by Palestinian armed groups could inflict a high number of casualties if it struck with some of its propellent remaining in a courtyard packed with people and flammable materials. All hospitals in northern Gaza, including al-Ahli, had received general orders to evacuate on October 13 and the days that followed.

Naim did not respond to several specific questions, including about the munition remnants and military operations by Palestinian armed groups on the evening of the explosion. However, he said that Hamas, in coordination with the relevant authorities, would provide all evidence “as soon as possible” and that Hamas welcomes independent investigations into the incident.

Sometimes it's okay to wait before having an opinion.
 

Thylacine 2000

Well-known member
Citizen
Also, that tweet gives us little to go on. It's an unaffiliated journalist providing no real details of the raid or the man's death and immediately following it up with another tweet "Israel is a rogue nation." I know expecting neutrality from journalists is passe by today's standards, and it doesn't mean an unarmed doctor wasn't killed by the IDF, but I prefer sources who aren't actively telling me what to think and proudly proclaiming their biased framing. He later posted a video interview with who is supposed to be the father providing an account of the shooting, but there are no logos and he never identified the source. He doesn't claim it's his video and skimming his timeline he doesn't seem to be based out of the West Bank and regularly posts videos from global hotspots with no sources given. As a general rule, unsourced videos from half a world away on social media confirming your priors are exactly the ones you should be most wary of. I don't speak Arabic, but upon watching the video noticed when the word "mujahideen" is clearly spoken nothing seems to correspond to it in the subtitles. Does that omission leave out any important context? Maybe an IDF sniper shot this doctor when he was trying to treat someone, but this isn't a credible news source making a case towards it or doing much to inform me one way or another.

One of the odd features of this conflict is some people on the left being highly skeptical and critical of anything Israel says while turning around and taking anything & everything from an anti-Israel perspective at face value and throwing all that skepticism right out the window.

One example.

Human Rights Watch repeating Hamas' Health Ministry propaganda about the al-Ahli hospital bombing claiming the Israelis murdred 500 people


Human Rights Watch reporting their findings after an actual investigation


It was a Palestinian rocket, not the IDF





The 500 person death toll was grossly exaggerated.



Hamas collected evidence from the crater and at different points since has said no evidence survived and also the evidence we'll release soon proves it was the IDF , besides we don't have rockets that could cause that damage anyway [they do.]



Sometimes it's okay to wait before having an opinion.


I'd like to return the focus specifically to HRW's Omar Shakir, omnipresent spokesperson from one of the shifty and biased NGOs I referred to earlier. He said that Israel bombing the Al-Ahli hospital was as bad as any human rights crime he'd seen in 10+ years --


-- when, of course, he never saw it at all because it didn't happen.

And while that was widely known over a month ago, here's an interview with him FOUR DAYS AGO where he asserts or agrees (the fonts make it unclear) that the very first reports are still true and Israel still did it.

 
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Thylacine 2000

Well-known member
Citizen
Speaking of medical workers, and what is and isn't propaganda, here is a case I will never forget, one of the major instances that showed me just how deep and widespread antisemitism is among the "respectable" "experts" who we are supposed to rely on when interpreting what happens in a foreign and closed society.

The Lancet is the oldest and probably most respected medical journal in the entire world. There were past I/P discussions here when I would be the one citing them to give a sense of "balance" - to say things like "I know sometimes Israel goes too far, look what was described in The Lancet." Disagreeing with them would be like disagreeing with an encyclopedia. I believed in them. You don't NOT believe in The Lancet!

In the aftermath of Operation Protective Edge in 2014, they published a letter accusing Israel of war crimes as part of a totally unjustified campaign that was disproportionately killing women and children. And then, funny thing....

In July, according to The Telegraph, the journal published a controversial “open letter to the people of Gaza” that strongly condemned Israel without mention of Hamas actions. The letter’s five primary authors claimed they had “no competing interests,” but The Telegraph notes that all five have campaigned vigorously in pro-Palestinian causes over the years, something the journal failed to make clear.

Particularly controversial was the fact that two of the letter’s authors, Dr. Paola Manduca and Dr. Swee Ang, also promoted a video by David Duke, a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. That information was revealed in a cache of emails openly available in Google groups, according to The Telegraph. Ang is an orthopedic surgeon in the UK while Manduca is a professor of genetics at the University of Genoa in Italy.https://www.splcenter.org/sites/def...-2014-09-22-at-12.11.01-PM-e1411481895874.png

Screen-Shot-2014-09-22-at-12.11.01-PM-300x155.png



Both sent round robin emails promoting a video titled “CNN Goldman Sachs and the Zio [sic] Matrix,” which was posted on Duke’s website Feb. 4, 2013 and claimed that a Jewish Zionist (or “Zio”) conspiracy controlled politics, media and finance. Duke finished his 15-minute presentation with the apocalyptic pronouncement that, “People are learning that globalist Zionist supremacism is the greatest single danger to the entire planet, to all human expressions of life and culture and heritage on the planet, to all nations and peoples who want to be free and independent.”

Ang reportedly wrote in her email accompanying the Duke video “This is a shocking video please watch. This is not about Palestine – it is about all of us!” She exhorted others to pass the video along, because “the whole world needs to know.”

When questioned about the video, Ang claimed that she didn’t know who Duke was, but was “concerned that if there was any truth in the video, that Jews control the media, politics and banking, what on earth is going on? I was worried.” She claims a friend made her aware of the video.

In addition to the Duke video, Manduca also forwarded a message in 2013 alleging that Jews were responsible for the Boston Marathon bombings, in which the email’s author stated, “Let us hope that someone in the FBI is smart enough to look more carefully at the clues in Boston and find the real culprits behind these bombings instead of buying the Zionist spin
.”
 
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Spin-Out

terminal shitposter
Citizen
a perpetual struggle us progressive/libertarian leftists (aka anarcho-socialists/anarcho-communists, democratic socialists such as myself and basically everyone on the left that isn't a worthless authoritarian/tankie/nazbol piece of shit) face is kicking out antisemites. we don't want to become anything like the fashholes we're fighting.
 


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