Unicron Trilogy: Which series is best?

Which is it?

  • Armada

    Votes: 9 45.0%
  • Energon

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Cybertron

    Votes: 11 55.0%

  • Total voters
    20

CoffeeHorse

Hanging in there
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
In retrospect I feel like Cybertron was kind of a "master of none" toyline.

That's how I feel about it. It is aggressively adequate in every way. Sometimes even stylishly adequate. I understand why that was a popular change of pace after Armada and Energon took a decidedly unbalanced approach, but it just leaves me kinda bored.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
Said this before and I will say it again. Armada and Energon would be much more fondly remembered today if the dubs for both series hadn't been rushed, and the animation for the former hadn't been rushed. Cybertron, thankfully, didn't have such problems.
Armada? Yes. Energon? Ehhhh SuperLink has the same pacing issues Energon has.
 

ZakuConvoy

Well-known member
Citizen
You don't need multiversal singularities to tell multiverse stories.
No. But, it could give you a consistent cast of characters that you can tell those multiversal stories with. Otherwise, you're kind of stuck going with the "Exiles" route, and cherry-picking a bunch of random characters from multiple different universes as your main cast that go universe-hopping. Which can also be fun, but it's been done before. And we had the Transtech cast as "multiversal overseers" like DC's Monitors. But, they were rather removed from the action. The Multiversal Singularity system could give you a dedicated cast to focus your stories around, when you do stories focused around the multiverse. AND they'd be kind of forced to actually BE in those universes. Right in the middle of the action. They couldn't just dispassionately observe those universes and send a team to deal with a problem. If a member of the Thirteen wants to interact with a universe they have to take action themselves and manifest INTO that universe. It feels like a more active and interesting system to me.

While also giving us a opportunity to show off different sides of those characters, as they reveal different aspects of their personalities by "manifesting" in those different dimensions, in different ways. Because their natures AREN'T actually immutable. Manifesting in different universes makes them follow the rules of that universe, so we could, ideally, see different sides of them. Personally, I imagine it like in Kingdom Hearts. Being in different worlds, means you get a different "costume" to fit that dimension. I'd extend that to their personalities, too. That way you CAN have different power levels, and different personalities, depending on the "laws" of the universe they're in. But, you'd just be seeing different sides of these characters. Each new "costume" that they get from having different physical forms in those different universes could give you a different angle on their personality. Showing different sides of those characters, and making them more three-dimensional. Like the frozen Shattered Glass Fallen. Everyone has a little bit of good and a little bit of bad in them, and this would be a way to show different sides to these characters. The roster itself would be locked, but everything else could change from universe to universe. They have all their same memories but their "mental states" are different, so they would react differently from universe to universe.

We never really got that TOO much with the Club stuff. But, I feel like there's a lot of potential there to do something really unique with these characters. The concept might need a slight adjustment and massage to make it work as best it can, but I think there's something there.

Where I don't agree with the that multiversal singularities are a natural extension of that. Sure, maybe they could be, but I'm a pretty big fantasy literature nerd and... um... it's not really a concept inherent in the idea. All powerful gods certainly are a staple, but the idea of multiversal singularities? Not so much.
I'm not saying you can't like the idea, but I wouldn't say it's going hand in hand with Transformers' fantasy credentials.
That's kind of why I like it. It's actually a pretty UNIQUE idea, that hasn't been done too much in other media. Transformers actually had a chance to blaze some new fictional ground with the concept, if they had delved more into it.

Really the only other example that I can think of off the top of my head is maybe the Monitors and associated characters from DC Comics. And even then, that's more of a "existing outside of the regular multiverse" sort of deal, rather than being IN the multiverse and manifesting in a variety of ways.

Basically having a "hive mind" that's forced to play within the rules of the universe they manifest in gives you a lot of potential to do something unique. Something most fiction doesn't touch on and really can't even do. Because either those franchises are too small to have a meaningfully sized multiverse, or because the multiverse isn't really important to the story, or because the multiverse is too "important" to larger story and too much of a focus for multiple writers like with DC and Marvel so it has to have more common rules.

In my opinion, the Transformers multiverse is JUST expansive enough, and JUST enough of a side-thing, that you can really play around with it in fun ways, that not a lot of franchises could possibly do. Transformers is really in a unique position, as far as their multiverse goes. The Multiversal Thirteen are just a really interesting and unique concept that haven't been done much before, and I kind of want someone to explore that idea more. Rather than just being a bit of background lore.

Never said they were. What I am saying, however, is that by getting rid of multiversal singularities you can give each continuity their own version of the Thirteen, and it's been done plenty. All of Optimus' most notable predecessors- Nova, Zeta, and Sentinel- have had goes as #13 in various continuities. And honestly? That's great.

Not only does it give creators freedom from the shackles of a bad creative decision (Optimus as the Thirteenth), but it allows each new creator to approach the mythos of the Thirteen in their own way. If the "multiversal singularities" thing was in play and adhered to (and what's the point of even having it if it's not adhered to?) then you could never do anything like IDW, which treated them like Euhemerist historical figures or TFO which used their betrayal and death to set up Orion's heroes journey.

I just don't see how "the Thirteen are multiversal singularities and therefore the roster and their power level and their very natures are immutable from one incarnation to the franchise to the next" is good from a storytelling perspective.
Personally, I feel the other way.

If you're constantly changing around who's in the Thirteen then...why have it be thirteen characters at all? You could do anything with that. And the only time they really did do something dramatically different than that was with IDW. Which, I will say, they did well enough. The Guiding Hand was a interesting enough concept to justify the departure. But, I think that most of the time, changing who's in the Thirteen from universe to universe is actually MORE confusing than the whole concept of Multiversal Singularities. Just saying that this small group of characters all have a hive mind, is a lot more simple than just randomly having different members. Because that naturally brings up the question of, "Why is there a difference in the first place?" Which most of these stories aren't interested in exploring.

Most of the time, they have 90% of the same characters as the members of the Thirteen. And they really only change out who the Thirteenth is, to get around it being Optimus. And even then...it's kind of just a different name just for the sake of having a different name? It's not like they actually EXPLORE who Zeta or Sentinel IS in that universe, or what makes them different from their other counterparts. It's just a name, with no personality, and usually not even a design attached.

If you're going to have the Thirteen, as this group, I think it makes more sense to have them be consistent. It makes the lore easier to understand for newbies, so it isn't constantly changing from show to show. Otherwise, you have this rather unfocused bit of lore that's inconsistent from show to show, that's only superficially different for very little reason. Having it be the same roster throughout all the shows, actually adds a little bit of a mystique to the group, in my opinion. That no matter what universe you go into, these characters are consistent, because they were here from the beginning. All the universes have divergences that make them different, but these guys were all here from the very start. All the universes started the same, and then eventually became different over time. I think that's more interesting, conceptually, rather than just having differences just for the sake of differences.

It's another matter if these different shows are actually going to DO something different. I'm fine with having universes with stuff like the Guiding Hand, or even naturally occurring levers and pulleys. As long as those are ideas that you're actually going to explore. But, usually...they don't. The Thirteen are just a storytelling shorthand excuse to make a story feel more epic with little effort. "Oh a member of the THIRTEEN just showed up, stuff's about to get LEGENDARY!". And if that's the extent of what you're going to do...you might as well make them consistent. I just don't see the value in changing just one or two members of the group, just for the sake of it.

Plus, having the Thirteen be Multiversal Singularities just makes them feel more powerful. Otherwise...they're just dudes? Dudes with magical weapons and tools that are arguably cooler than they are? And I'd like the actual characters to feel powerful on their own rights, instead of just being tied to their weapons, like the Enigma and Forge. Plus...it gives you some opportunities for some fun fan-service. Commenting on other versions of these characters that they've met before. "Oh, you're one of THOSE Optimuses". It might not be the most substantial thing ever, but it's something I'd enjoy. A little nod to other parts of the franchise can be fun.

I see more potential in Multiversal Singularities in allowing us to delve more into the Thirteen as characters. Seeing different facets of them, while still making them be the same character at their core. I can see the merits in allowing the different shows to do their own things. But...that's only if they actually DO their own thing. Usually, the origin of the Transformers isn't enough of a focus in these shows to really justify having a completely different origin story. If it's not going to be a focus, and if the Thirteen only exist to hype up a big fight or something....I think it makes more sense to make these characters FEEL more "mythic". And having a special ability, like being a Multiversal Singularity helps do that, in my opinion. If you're going to have "Transformer Gods"....let them feel like Gods!



I don't know, a lot of this comes down to "potential" one way or another. How it's executed would make all the difference in the world. But, I just think there's a lot of untapped potential with the Multiversal Singularities concept that could lead to some really unique stories.
 
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Exatron

Kaiser Dragon
Citizen
Regarding the thirteenth always being the one that changes in and out, if we were to again try out the multiversal singularity concept, I'd make the matrix be the singularity rather than the bot who holds it. That way, you could slot in whoever you want as the thirteenth, but they could still have access to the wisdom, knowledge, and power that the rest of the group bring to the table. They would also uniquely get all that inherited wisdom coming from different perspectives, making them a means for a whole 'nother set of story possibilities.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
Otherwise, you're kind of stuck going with the "Exiles" route, and cherry-picking a bunch of random characters from multiple different universes as your main cast that go universe-hopping
And?

In my opinion, the Transformers multiverse is JUST expansive enough, and JUST enough of a side-thing, that you can really play around with it in fun ways, that not a lot of franchises could possibly do.
DC Comics had such an expansive multiverse that they ran a massive event to collapse it because it got too cumbersome to manage and too impenetrable to new readers.
And truth be told? DC did so much with their classic multiverse that blows away whatever Transformers managed to do with the concept.

"Oh here's a Byzantine catalogue system for everything."

Ok, cool. I guess.

Personally, I feel the other way.

If you're constantly changing around who's in the Thirteen then...why have it be thirteen characters at all?
I just can't see that argument, I'm sorry. The Thirteen are playing on a number of tropes from classical mythology. Most famously Greek mythology, with the Thirteen serving as our Olympian stand-ins.

Greek mythology did have a roster of who was on Mt. Olympus with Zeus, but who those were changed depending on when and where a story was being told. The very tropes the Thirteen are rooted in as a concept were ever-changing.

Frankly? I find it a boon that a creator can come in and go "ok, I'm going to do this with the Thirteen" and not be restrained by the idea that they're multiversal singularities. My story about Megatronus, as an example, doesn't have to adhere to previous Megatronus canon.
And the thing is that Megatronus' canon never made much sense when he was a multiversal singularity. He's either an agent of Unicron or the first Decepticon or Solus' bf or just her crazy stalker or he was corrupted or he was born bad depending on the story. We only pretended all of this contradictory lore made sense when it was all supposed to be one guy. All ending the multiversal singularity stuff did was let us all be honest about the fact that all of these different incarnations of this character were... different incarnations of this character.

Maybe continuities that changed #13 out for Sentinel or Nova or Zeta could have done better with who those characters were, but I rather that option be there for creators who want to give it a go then to saddle everyone coming in with an unwieldy concept like multiversal singularities.

The concept is limiting. The stories I can tell with Prima have to work with the idea that all Primas are one guy. I can't change him up to fit my version of the world, I can't play with his archetype, I can't even kill him if my story needs him to die because he's Prima, the Multiversal Singularity.

Truth is? I don't like multiverses as a concept. I think it diminishes the story we're being asked to care about right now if we're being reminded that there are an infinite number of Cybertrons out there. I think G1 can be G1, Armada can be Armada, etc... and you don't need to push the multiverse into things.

But fans gonna fan and they love the idea that each incarnation of the franchise is its own universe or whatever and that's fine.

But if it's going to be here, I'd at least like the strengths of the concept- the ability to play around with characters in different settings unrestrained by canon- to be present. Taking central characters and going "they're in every universe and they're the same guy" is needlessly restrictive, in my opinion.
 

MrBlud

Well-known member
Citizen
Armada: Amazing toyline, mediocre show

Energon: Horrid toyline, execrable show

Cybertron: Decent toyline, decent show

I’m biased because I really like the Armada toyline but it’s probably objectively Cybertron.
 

ZakuConvoy

Well-known member
Citizen
DC Comics had such an expansive multiverse that they ran a massive event to collapse it because it got too cumbersome to manage and too impenetrable to new readers.
And then they brought it back. Because having NO multiverse is actually more restrictive than a multiverse with too much history. And they kept kinda-sorta bringing it back, anyway, to mine the old stories. And, in fact, they keep making it bigger and bigger, to make it less restrictive. And with more and more mythology surrounding all of it.

Face it...the multiverse won! For better or for worse.
"Oh here's a Byzantine catalogue system for everything."

Ok, cool. I guess.
Hey, hey, hey...c'mon.

...C'MON!

I LOVE the Universal Stream naming system. It’s so relentlessly dorky that I can’t help but love it. They made a Dewey Decimal System for cataloging alternate dimensions and I ADORE it. It’s arguably the only GOOD multiversal naming system that’s ever been invented. In theory, if you know the rules, you could name any universe you wanted to yourself, without being told it’s name directly. SO much better and more detailed than just saying it’s Earth-*Insert Random Number Here*. And it allows for naming different variations on the same basic universe, with different branching timelines. It’s so much more all-encompassing and flexible than anything else out there, that I’m aware of. It's the very apex of the concept, in my opinion.

Truth is? I don't like multiverses as a concept. I think it diminishes the story we're being asked to care about right now if we're being reminded that there are an infinite number of Cybertrons out there. I think G1 can be G1, Armada can be Armada, etc... and you don't need to push the multiverse into things.
I feel like a lot of people feel similarly about the multiverse. Especially nowadays with the MCU delving into it. But, I’ve always loved the multiverse. When done right, a multiverse can become it’s own mythology, complete with it’s own history and rules and characters. DC even has it’s own mythology surrounding the multiverse, with Perpetua, Mobius the Anti-Monitor, and the World Forger nowadays.

I feel like complaining about the endless variation kind of misses the point. Sure, you could see it as every character just being a drop in the ocean. Or you could see it as every character being a snowflake. (In the “special” way, not in the insulting way.) The point of the multiverse ISN’T about highlighting how everyone’s the same and how none of this matters. It’s about highlighting how even small differences can add up to dramatic differences over time, while showing you what makes a character themselves at their core. If circumstances were different, what would change, and what would remain the same? And what was the inflection point that led to these changes in the first place? It’s just inherently interesting, to me. What sequence of events led to Superman being a cowboy in this universe? It’s a puzzle just waiting to be solved, and I just enjoy it. And I want Transformers to delve into it more, too. And I feel like Multiversal Singularities would give us a excuse to do just that.

Plus, I feel like the multiverse almost always forces writers to think a little deeper than they usually do. Or at least, it should. The best multiverse stories are when the stories become ABOUT the art of stories and storytelling. I feel like the multiverse almost forces the writer to think more metaphorically, leading to a deeper experience than otherwise. And I'd personally like to get more stories that are like that. But, then again, I'm also a sucker for meta storytelling, so your mileage will definitely vary when it come to enjoying that.

Personally, I'd enjoy tying a key piece the lore to the multiverse, making it feel more grand and tying everything to something I enjoy. While not being TOO in the way for the casual viewer. If you don't want to bring it up, you don't have to. But, it could still be there, unspoken, in the background, for someone else to play with later.

But if it's going to be here, I'd at least like the strengths of the concept- the ability to play around with characters in different settings unrestrained by canon- to be present. Taking central characters and going "they're in every universe and they're the same guy" is needlessly restrictive, in my opinion.
The thing is...lately, I feel like a lot of characters are written like "the same guy", anyway.

A lot of it's the G1-ification of all Transformers media. But...I feel like there's only a "spectrum" of what you're allowed to do with ANY of these characters, anymore. All Optimuses kind of feel pretty similar to one another. Whether it's Skybound, or Earthspark, or Transformers One, or what have you. They have different backstories, and they have some nuances that set them apart...but they're largely the same guy, if you squint. The character's dialogue from one show or comic would largely fit if you inserted into a different show or comic. The same goes for the Bumblebii, the Megatrons, the Starscreamses.

So, asking the writers to do the same thing for the Thirteen doesn't seem all that unreasonable, to me? If anything, it might do them some good to get them to actually care about the overarching narrative? There's a argument to be made that the writers SHOULDN'T be doing this at all, and all these different versions of these characters should be more different from one another than they are. But...that's kind of just the way it is with a brand that's trying to be more digestible to the casual viewer. Having all these different versions of these characters act like variations on their same selves isn't really a good thing or a bad thing, it's just...a thing. It makes it easier for the casual fan to keep up with their favorite character.

Having some rules isn't a bad thing. It's kind of like with tabletop gaming. Having TOO MANY rules is a bad thing, because, yes, it does stifle creativity. But, having TOO FEW rules is equally as bad, because that's just chaos. There's a middle ground to be had here. And I think Multiversal Singularities could still work in that middle ground.



For example, I know a lot of people prefer different origins for the Transformers, rather than have everything be connected to the Thirteen. Some prefer the Quintesson origins. Others might like a more "natural" evolution origin for them. But....we could have our cake and eat it, too, here.

How about a new rule for the Multiversal Thirteen?

How about whenever a member of the Thirteen manifests into a universe, that universe’s history is *temporarily* rewritten so that the Thirteen and Primus were always a part of it? "Infecting" the history of the world, and rewriting everyone's memories of the past. Thus explaining how they can have a unique body in this world. But, once they leave, the universe’s history returns back to whatever it was before they manifested. Kind of like when you “erase” a character from history in a story, but somehow the history of the entire world doesn’t drastically change because of it due to the butterfly effect. That way, the other characters knowing about the Thirteen in this dimension could be a subtle hint to the fans reading the story that there could be at least one member of the Thirteen currently in this dimension, and they could show up anytime? Rewriting the world around you, for a limited time, could just be a natural power that comes with being a Thirteen. I think that could be a interesting fix. And it would be a way to get hardcore fans hyped, anticipating seeing this powerful character that could show anytime and speculating about who it could be. The Thirteen ARE a part of every world they visit...but only WHILE they're visiting.

Like I said I’m not against changing some details about how Multiversal Singularities work, I’d just like the concept to stay in, somehow. It's a interesting enough concept that I want to see it preserved, even if it's almost never brought up or focused upon.



But, yeah, I guess I can't blame anyone for being sick of the multiverse when it's been pretty prevalent in the media for a decade or so now. I'm not sick of it yet, but I guess I can't blame other people for feeling that way, and for not wanting Transformers to delve too deeply into that area, again. I just feel differently.
 
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lastmaximal

Administrator
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
I don't disagree that the multiverse as a concept allows for a lot of interesting possibilities, and if a writer doesn't want to use it, they can just not mention or use it (just don't contradict it I guess).

I dig a multiverse, really. Came into DC after Crisis, but welcomed the return around 52. And the way it was used for various purposes since, especially Morrison's metafictional commentary, was nice. But it can easily devolve into somewhat samey, lazy writing -- the fault of writers/producers, not the concept.

I didn't even really mind the club's universal stream naming convention. At least not when it was introduced. There's some cleverness to it and the built-in degree of flexibility isn't bad. But it was pleasantly dorky for basically five minutes and then overshot that straight into insufferable and never, ever left. It's poisoned to me now.

But I absolutely do not like that "The Thirteen rewrite a local continuity whenever they show up and it goes back to normal when they leave". That might be an interesting hook for one character, but in a localized way, not in a continuity-hopping way. The very idea of reality having to twist itself into a pretzel around them is one of the reasons why they're unpopular.

I like the Thirteen as a concept, but more as abstract lore characters left to legend and myth. Keep them ambiguous and unexplored; even the 2019 IDW stuff that acknowledged them generally left them alone (I liked one of the lines that suggested that modern society even came up with them to explain their artifacts).

Whether it's as confirmed, actual demigods of the Transformers universe, or fleshed-out characters, the concept kinda strays too far from its appeal in either direction.
 


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