Unicron Trilogy: Which series is best?

Which is it?

  • Armada

    Votes: 9 45.0%
  • Energon

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Cybertron

    Votes: 11 55.0%

  • Total voters
    20

Exatron

Kaiser Dragon
Citizen
Armada had a lot of problems in both the show and toyline, but I enjoyed it regardless. It has some real highlights in both the show and the toys that I genuinely love. And it has a solid video game as well! The issues with Energon's show have been beaten to death, though I will say I liked a lot of the toys, especially on the Decepticon side. Cybertron... Yeah, I guess it existed, didn't it? I know a lot of people seem to love it, but I found it completely forgettable. I can remember the basic plot of trying to get the keys from the colonies to seal the black hole and a few characters, but that's it. That's despite watching the entire series at least two or three times through.

All that to say, my vote goes to Armada.
 

LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
Then the To Sell Toys mandate kicked in, but at least they got Simon Furman to handle Unicron, as he does.
This isn't a plus. Furman's insistence that the Unicron he was writing in the Armada comic HAD to be the Unicron he wrote in the G1 comics is what saddled this franchise with the unwieldy "multiversal singularities" concept that it took forever and day to undo.
 

CoffeeHorse

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Toywise, I find Cybertron boringly adequate. Armada's gimmicks are more intrusive, and I don't blame anyone for considering them too much. They are intrusive to the point of characters being designed around them, but that also makes it really easy to remember who does what. Cybertron's gimmicks can be pretty forgettable. Oh, two little guns popped out. Sometimes they've not even hidden. Armada's have spectacle.

Mostly. There are some duds. But even when Armada's gimmicks are lame, I remember them.
 

Magnusblitz

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Furman's insistence that the Unicron he was writing in the Armada comic HAD to be the Unicron he wrote in the G1 comics is what saddled this franchise with the unwieldy "multiversal singularities" concept that it took forever and day to undo.

Did he say something to this effect? Because at least, on page, I don't recall that being the case. Armada comic Unicron was a universe-traveller (and had been to at least one similar-to-G1 universe), but I don't think he was supposed to be the same one as Marvel comic Unicron (and really can't be, since they each get destroyed at the end of their respective comics). Maybe it could be said that his take inspired the "multiversal singularity" concept that the Club comics and Hasbro later went with, but I don't think it's fair to blame Furman if that's the case.

(It's trite by today's standards of everyone having a multiverse, but I thought it was a pretty cool set of cameos back in the day, especially Dirge getting to be a herald just because his name was cool. And I loved that Armada Megs got to take out G1 Galvatron, which I feel is something that would never be allowed today.)
 
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LordGigaIce

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Did he say something to this effect? Because at least, on page, I don't recall that being the case. Armada comic Unicron was a universe-traveller (and had been to at least one similar-to-G1 universe), but I don't think he was supposed to be the same one as Marvel comic Unicron (and really can't be, since they each get destroyed at the end of their respective comics). Maybe it could be said that his take inspired the "multiversal singularity" concept that the Club comics and Hasbro later went with, but I don't think it's fair to blame Furman if that's the case.
It was supposed to be the same Unicron as G1 Unicron. I mean come on....

IMG_3941.jpeg


"But they both get destroyed at the end of their respective comics!"

I never said it made sense, and time travel and universe hoping means you can justify all kinds of paradoxes, but it was clearly meant to be the same Unicron, yes.

(It's trite by today's standards of everyone having a multiverse, but I thought it was a pretty cool set of cameos back in the day, especially Dirge getting to be a herald just because his name was cool. And I loved that Armada Megs got to take out G1 Galvatron, which I feel is something that would never be allowed today.)
I don't think having "a multiverse" is a bad idea, and I never said anything to the effect. What I found dumb back then, and still do today, is the idea of "multiversal singularities." I find the idea very limiting. One of the pluses a multiverse affords you is to be able to say "ok let's do different takes on these characters." But multiversal singularities mean a whole roster of important characters can only be one version.

As for Armada Megs beating G1 Galvatron, that would absolutely happen today if the brand had a new iteration of the franchise that was popular enough to justify a mega push. It doesn't matter if it's 2002 or 2026, Hasbro likes money and will push the current thing so it sells more.
That Hasbro doesn't have a "current thing" more popular than G1 today isn't because Hasbro changed, it's because ALL of pop culture has calcified into one huge nostalgia wank. We complain about Transformers because that's why we're here, but it's the same in pretty much every fan space.
 

Magnusblitz

Well-known member
Citizen
It was supposed to be the same Unicron as G1 Unicron. I mean come on....

I don't see how a cover picture of Galvatron (and a very toyetic one to boot) in any way implies it's supposed to be Marvel Unicron. As I said, his heralds are obviously variations of G1 dudes, but there's nothing to suggest its supposed to be Marvel Unicron specifically. He's just "a" Unicron that happens to jump universes.

I don't think having "a multiverse" is a bad idea, and I never said anything to the effect. What I found dumb back then, and still do today, is the idea of "multiversal singularities." I find the idea very limiting. One of the pluses a multiverse affords you is to be able to say "ok let's do different takes on these characters." But multiversal singularities mean a whole roster of important characters can only be one version.

I wasn't trying to suggest you thought that a multiverse was a bad idea, the part I put in parentheses was just my own unrelated musings on the concept in general. I agree with you wholeheartedly as to multiversal singularities.
 

Shadewing

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I don't see how a cover picture of Galvatron (and a very toyetic one to boot) in any way implies it's supposed to be Marvel Unicron. As I said, his heralds are obviously variations of G1 dudes, but there's nothing to suggest its supposed to be Marvel Unicron specifically. He's just "a" Unicron that happens to jump universes.



I wasn't trying to suggest you thought that a multiverse was a bad idea, the part I put in parentheses was just my own unrelated musings on the concept in general. I agree with you wholeheartedly as to multiversal singularities.

Also Furman's Galvatron was Toy Colored, so its not the same Galvatron as the G1 Comics he wrote.
 

NovaSaber

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While the "multiversal singularity" concept had problems of its own, dropping it hasn't solved more than half of them, since a lot of the stuff that was only the way it is because of the singularity concept (large parts of lore being the same across all universes, the Thirteen being "godlike") haven't stopped being so consistent across new universes.

Really, in practice, there was more variety made during the years when singularities existed but no one was pushing hard for consistency than there has been in Aligned and everything since.
For example, the last main universe where Primus and the Thirteen seemingly didn't exist was Animated, which was made while Primus and the Thirteen still were singularities according to other stories.
 

LordGigaIce

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Citizen
While the "multiversal singularity" concept had problems of its own, dropping it hasn't solved more than half of them, since a lot of the stuff that was only the way it is because of the singularity concept (large parts of lore being the same across all universes, the Thirteen being "godlike") haven't stopped being so consistent across new universes.
I don't agree with that at all.
I mean the last major media depiction of the Thirteen had them as just some dudes who got taken out by their treacherous secretary and his squid army. Hardly "godlike."

And heck, that depiction had #13 be a totally different guy from #13 in the """official""" mythology. Then you have the Machinima series where Sentinel is a member... Earth Wars where Nova is a member... and TFO where Zeta is a member. You've also got the various Club stories after they canned the singularity nonsense where they established that Logos is a member of the Thirteen in some continuities, and other times the members of IDW's Guiding Hand are members.

And sure a lot of that is niche to various degrees, but again... the last theatrically released movie had a distinct roster for the Thirteen and they certainly weren't godlike there.

So just by going off of the Thirteen, yeah I'd say ditching the singularity concept did allow for more variance by letting different iterations of the franchise place with their power levels, exact spot in the lore, or even roster composition.

And I mean... come on. Aligned was made at the peak of this nonsense and Prime turned Unicron into Earth. Which doesn't make sense because he was a multiversal singularity at that point and very much isn't Earth anywhere else.

So I stand by what I said, that ditching the idea of multiversal singularities gives creators more freedom to play with the lore.

I don't see how a cover picture of Galvatron (and a very toyetic one to boot) in any way implies it's supposed to be Marvel Unicron. As I said, his heralds are obviously variations of G1 dudes, but there's nothing to suggest its supposed to be Marvel Unicron specifically. He's just "a" Unicron that happens to jump universes.
I'm going to say that the Unicron of the Armada comics coming from a G1 universe with a whole host of G1 dudes is... supposed to be G1 Unicron. And that there was a G1 Unicron written by the same guy writing the Armada comic... I mean... this isn't rocket science. Either way, this is what the Wiki has to say about it...

The concept of a singular being existing across multiple discrete universes originated with Unicron. Though historically, multiple different conflicting origins and fates had been detailed for the character in the original Generation 1 cartoon and Marvel comic, in the early 2000s, multiple works by Simon Furman introduced the idea that, in fact, there was only one Unicron, who travelled from universe to universe. Such powers were first suggested by the first Universe franchise, which was built on the premise of Unicron kidnapping Transformers from various universes, and Furman's comic established that he did this from a location between dimensions, the first time Unicron was shown to personally transcend dimensional barriers. Soon after, the Furman-penned "Worlds Collide" storyline in the Dreamwave Armada comic book and Transformers: The Ultimate Guide were published and made further mention of Unicron's dimension-crossing power, though they did not explicitly declare a single Unicron.
It was ultimately Hasbro copywriter Forest Lee who picked up that thread and used it to create the "multiversal singularity" idea, playing it out in the Fun Publications Cybertron comic. He established two different expressions of singularity: Unicron's, where there was only one incarnation hopping from universe to universe; and Primus's, where every universe had its own incarnation, but they were all connected. Lee also gave other characters similar pan-dimensional status, such as Vector Prime, who seemed to embody the Unicron model, and Vector Sigma, which was more like Primus.


So basically it seems like I misremembered the order of events slightly. Furman writes a story for the Universe toyline where Unicron is the same across all universes. Then in the Armada comic he has Unicron and some other guys come from some version of the G1 continuity over to the Armada universe. Then Lee takes the idea that, at least as far as the comics went, Armada Unicron is G1 Unicron and fleshes it out to the broader multiversal singularity concept.

Either way, I'm not inclined to give Furman a pass here. The Armada anime worked Unicron into its story without having to bring him over form a G1 universe, Marvel or otherwise. They just... introduced Unicron.

Noted Marvel G1 Author Simon Furman making a point to make the Unicron of his Armada comics be a G1 Unicron certainly wasn't necessary and happened because... noted Marvel G1 Author Simon Furman wanted to reference his own work.

And he'd already toyed with the idea that all Unicrons were the same Unicron back in Universe. That he has Unicron show up from a clearly G1 coded universe later in Armada seems very intentional.
 

NovaSaber

Well-known member
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This is what happens when I cut my posts short to not include the part I wasn't sure I was wording right, I guess, because I almost mentioned the Thirteeth's identity being an exception.

And heck, that depiction had #13 be a totally different guy from #13 in the """official""" mythology. Then you have the Machinima series where Sentinel is a member... Earth Wars where Nova is a member... and TFO where Zeta is a member.
All of those (unless I'm wrong about what Earth Wars did) are variance in who the Thirteenth specifically was, because Optimus being one of the Thirteen is particularly constraining compared to the other twelve being mostly consistent.
(And it probably wouldn't vary if the "official" Thirteenth was some other ancient character that most stories don't want to make a main one in the present.)

You've also got the various Club stories after they canned the singularity nonsense where they established that Logos is a member of the Thirteen in some continuities, and other times the members of IDW's Guiding Hand are members.
And The Last Autobot.
But that was mostly due to AVP saying all of those were members in some continuities right before the question-answering Vector Prime stopped being part of the singularity.
I don't think anyone else new (besides Zeta) was added to the list of chracters who'd been part of the Thirteen after the singularity concept has been fully abandoned.

And I mean... come on. Aligned was made at the peak of this nonsense
Aligned was the start of how the singularities ended.
It was "outside the multiverse" even before the singularity concept was dropped overall.
And it immediately became more influential on new things created afterward than the singularity concept ever had been; it even influenced already-existing continuities like IDW and the Bayverse.

Alpha Trion was never a multiversal singularity, but is part of every non-singularity version of the Thirteen, starting with Aligned.

AVP then further toyed with the "multiversal singularities" existing but not applying to every incarnation of certain characters (I think it literally said G1 cartoon Unicron wasn't part of the Unicron singularity), shortly before the Club just did the story that ended them, and AVP followed suit by making its question-answerer no longer part of Vector Prime singularity.

and Prime turned Unicron into Earth. Which doesn't make sense because he was a multiversal singularity at that point and very much isn't Earth anywhere else.
And then TLK did it too.

I almost specifically named that as the most blatant example of a bad idea from Aligned that was not (and can not be) true of the singularity version being inappropriately shoved into another universe.

So I stand by what I said, that ditching the idea of multiversal singularities gives creators more freedom to play with the lore.
Oh I don't disagree that that's true in principle; I just meant there's very little indication of it ever having actually influenced any stories that weren't actively using it, unlike a lot of things that originated with Aligned.
 

The Mighty Mollusk

Scream all you like, 'cause we're all mad here
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While he was from some G1 or G1-adjacent universe (since it had Mini-cons; Over-Run came from that universe, too), Dreamwave Armada Unicron can't be from another universe we know about, because in his home universe, he won. He was literally in the process of devouring his Cybertron while his heralds looked for a way to jump him to the Armada-verse.
 

LordGigaIce

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Oh I don't disagree that that's true in principle; I just meant there's very little indication of it ever having actually influenced any stories that weren't actively using it, unlike a lot of things that originated with Aligned.
I don't think that's a singularity issue so much as it is just... how the brand has calcified.

Aligned failed in a lot of ways. The New Unified Continuity Forever didn't pan out, Prime sputtered, bleeding money and viewership. The massive media projects that it was all supposed to foster got less and less ambitious. Prime's toyline was the first mainline Transformers toyline since the '07 movie line to sell worse than its predecessor. The line severely harmed Transformers in Japan. Heck, there's strong circumstantial evidence to suggest that Prime's toyline failings are why the franchise pivoted to a hard lean on the collector-oriented Generations stuff. Prime convinced enough higher ups at Hasbro that the "massive media push with a show and toyline" formula wasn't working anymore and leaning into nostalgia and collector aimed stuff was the way forward.

All of that being said though? Aligned still won. The Binder and Covenant may have been made for a continuity refresh that didn't last, but they remain the bedrock of the franchise's lore. Every new movie, show, or comic uses that stuff as the foundation now. It wasn't the Forever Continuity that Archer and Alvarez envisioned, but it's firmly the foundation of everything since.

Just talking about Sentinel Prime, @Sabrblade and I were discussing that we're never going to get a heroic version of Sentinel ever again because Alvarez based Sentinel in the BoR off of Animated Sentinel, since he loved that take so much. Even though Sentinel was more or less unambiguously heroic until the one-two punch of Animated and DotM, which led to Alvarez and the binder.

And Sentinel isn't even a member of the Thirteen (well he usually isn't). He's just a useful example of a character who had much more variance in his characterization before the BoR and CoP both came along to go "ok this is just how the lore is now."

The days of someone getting to do a new show or comic or movie and reinventing things with their vision is over. Beast Wars, the UT, hell, even the '07 movie, likely could never happen today because of how much more tightly controlled the brand is now in terms of backstory and mythos.

Well it COULD but you'd probably need to see a massive bottoming out of sales for Hasbro to consider a shift and I don't see that happening. Prices increased and SS '86 Astrotrain pissed everyone off and it still sold out its preorders.

I'm rambling now, but I guess my point is that I don't see the decision to end multiversal singularities as being what led to all the recent sameness. It's Hasbro's insistence on using the Aligned-originated materials as the backbone of the franchise that keeps everything so self referential.

Even then though, I feel like I need to sing TFO's praises. Depicting the Thirteen as just a group of dudes who got gank'd is something that could never happen if Hasbro was trying to insist that they were all thirteen multiversal singularity gods.

So despite the move towards a homogenized mythology, I do think the move away from multiversal singularities has left the door open to do different stuff.
 

lastmaximal

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Brands are just firmly settled into "our evergreen stuff is it" these days. There's still some innovation but there's a lot of retreading the known, proven stuff. This would've happened with or without the multiversal singularities (specifically) ending up like they did. I wouldn't be surprised if the push to Align everything was in the service of defining that evergreenable core. (I almost said it was, but I realized I might not be remembering that specific bit of it correctly.)
 

CoffeeHorse

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It's terrible but I don't blame Hasbro. For a long time they didn't much care what writers did as long as the toys sold. Then they realized the lore was valuable, so they checked TFWiki to see what their lore actually was and O_O so they decided to develop a template they could understand enough to explain to prospective licensees.

It could have worked if they handed the project to better writers.
 

lastmaximal

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It could have worked if they handed the project to better writers.
Definitely this, but also if they'd just developed it as an overall ideal framework and commissioned specific pieces to flesh out certain specific parts, rather than expect everyone hired to make Transformers stuff suddenly care about fitting it into this larger mosaic they likely had little to no say in designing. That approach was never going to get them very far.
 

Andrusi

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In retrospect I feel like Cybertron was kind of a "master of none" toyline.
 

ZakuConvoy

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You know what? I'm gonna say it! I LIKE Multiversal Singularities! I think it's a interesting concept!

The idea of these handful of godlike beings having knowledge that goes beyond the universe they're in? Being able to see the "whole game board" as it were? That's kind of interesting. It means you can have plots and machinations that span multiple universes. It means you could have these characters trying to set things up in one universe, so that they can make a different move in a separate one. It gives these handful of beings a sense of scope and grandeur that no one else can match. It gives these characters a epic feel, suitable for extremely powerful beings.

Personally, I feel like like Transformers is always at it's best when it embraces that it's a combination of technology AND magic. Science fiction AND Fantasy. Multiversal Singularities feel like a idea from a fantasy novel. And I just dig that.

It didn't really effect that many characters. Just the Gods and the Thirteen. And I think that's fine. Those characters don't show up that much, anyway. And when they do, them having knowledge from multiple universes kind of gives them this aura of omniscience that makes them feel special. If these kinds of characters are only going to show up once in a great while, why NOT give them a special ability that makes them actually feel special when they show up.

And it's a idea that really only a franchise like Transformers could pull off. A franchise that's been running for years, with a bunch of different variations of itself. But, with most of those universes being long dormant or discarded. Multiversal Singularities gives you a excuse to revisit a lot of these old worlds, while also giving them a bit of a new twist. Sure, nothing of note has happened in this universe for possibly decades...but here comes a new powerful character who might have PLANS for how to use it in a new way. It adds a little bit of a x-factor for how you can interact with these old worlds. Which was PERFECT for something like the Club.

And, let's be honest here, the whole Multiversal Singularity idea was mostly contained almost exclusively to the Club stuff. Which...is actually a pretty good idea? Keeping this kind of complicated high-concept exclusive to the media made exclusively for only the hardest of the hardcore fans. The kind of fans who would actually be willing to keep track of all of this and care about it. I honestly forget if even Furman himself ever actually mentioned the term "Mutliversal Singularity" in anything that wasn't made for the club. Furman didn't even come up with the term "Muliversal Singuarity", that was 100% the Club's invention. Furman may have started the general idea with Unicron in Universe and the Ultimate Guide, but he never really got that far with the idea. We never actually got Furman's version of the Thirteen, so who knows what he would have done with it?

I feel like the only reason people really have a problem with the idea of Multiveral Singularities, is because it became a headache for the fans running the Wiki. Do we have to merge ALL these characters into one page, now? How do we list their actions from different universes, by "real world" release dates or by chronological order? The fans maintaining the Wiki didn't like it, because it meant more work and more debate about how to handle it, and that vitriol eventually spread to the rest of the fanbase by association. Plus, again, this was mostly contained to just the Club stuff. So, any new media didn't really use the idea, causing contradictions in the lore that the Club had to write around. But...that's kind of part of the fun? Trying to find ways to make this all work together, even though it was never really made to work together? Again, that's a perfect thing for the fan-focused Club stuff to do.

And then there's the whole "Optimus is the Thirteenth" thing. And I'll just remind people, that never came from the Club. It didn't even come from Furman. That came from Aligned! It was the Covenent of Primus Guidebook that did that. That was just Hasbro trying to make Optimus the most important character ever, because they were slowly sliding into their "G1 is all we do" phase. The Club and Furman, and even the concept of Multiversal Singularities is not at fault for that. At this point, it's probably just easier to say that the Matrix itself is actually the Thirteenth, since most of the "replacements" are Primes. But, I'm not sure if Hasbro actually cares enough to actually do that.

Could it have been done better? Sure, I guess. But, I'm not sure if I'd say it was actually handled poorly or not. It would have been nice to really delve more into the idea. But, again, the Gods and Thirteen are RARELY the focus of any media. And Hasbro didn't want the Club doing it, because they were really wishy-washy about maybe doing a big project themselves with the idea of the Thirteen. Which never really came about in that era.

So, personally, I think it was a interesting idea. I'd even be open to it coming back, myself. Maybe they should actually have more of a plan for it, going forward, if they ever do? But, I think the idea itself has the potential to be a lot of fun. And, honestly? I think the Club stuff that used it was a lot of fun. I have some fond memories of all that crazy lore getting dropped and having to parse through it all. It's a very geeky type of fun. But, I'm here for it! I kind of wish we'd get something like the Club stories, again.




*AHEM*

Well, as for the actual topic of the thread?

Yeah, Energon's on the bottom of the list, for me. I do like some of the designs. Energon Megatron/Galvatron is probably one of my favorite redesigns for the character. Wing Saber's a cool design. And I'm a sucker for clear plastic, so I really like a lot of the designs for the Terrorcons like Cruellock. But, the show was...pretty plodding for most of it's run. The combination gimmick was a fun idea that...was only really executed well in a few cases. A lot of the combinations we got were...kinda lame. I think it's safe to say it's the weakest of the three.

As for which is better, Armada or Cybertron? Well....I could easily go either way, honestly.

Cybertron has cooler designs. Cybertron Optimus is a all time great. Cybertron Starscream just looks slick. Soundwave, Scourge, Primus, Vector Prime, all great designs. And the show is...more consistent, I think than Armada is. It runs at a pretty constant 7 out of 10 for most of it's run. And I think it's plot is structurally more interesting than Armada's. Cybertron just feels like it has the better world-building. All the different planets we got to see, and all their different cultures. A lot of the history and lore we got was interesting. It was the more interesting show to explore the world of. And the execution was solid, but not extraordinary.

Armada has the better gimmick. I mean...Cyber Planet Keys are just Mini-Cons that can't transform. A little Transformer that can activate a gimmick on a bigger Transformer? That's just a natural evolution of the old "Masters" from G1. These are arguably better toys, that are more fun to actually play with. And, even though I do prefer Cybertron's design aesthetic, I can't say there aren't some winners in Armada. Fully Combined Optimus is still probably the best super mode for Optimus out of the Trilogy. This was the first time we ever got Unicron and they knocked it out of the park with him. Armada Starscream is one of the most iconic looks for him. Tidal Wave, Sideways, even Demolisher and Blurr, great designs. As for the show....I feel like it has higher highs and lower lows than Cybertron. The first half of the show is pretty episodic and kind of forgettable, honestly. And it's full of...iffy animation, at best. But, that second half really kicks things into high gear. The entire Unicron Saga is pretty solid. Starscream gets one of his most iconic moments in any show, ever. The twist with the Mini-Cons are interesting, even if it's pretty abrupt and they don't really do much with it. And there's improvement in the animation quality in that second half. Plus...I just like traditional animation more, over Cybertron's half-CGI look.

It's been YEARS since I've seen either one. And my memory of them is pretty hazy at this point. And it kind of depends on which you think is better. Is a more consistent show, that that probably has a few fewer spectacular moments, better than a show that has a fair few moments that are just outright poor?

Ask me tomorrow and I might have a different answer. But for right now...I'm leaning towards Armada being the winner. I think it's just more memorable, overall. I might respect Cybertron's storytelling more. But, Armada has the better gimmick and a few more memorable moments in the show itself. Maybe it's nostalgia talking, but Armada just feels more..."cozy", somehow. Like it's from a different era that I kind of miss, where the toys came first over everything.



I hope you enjoyed my wall-o-text! Now, go grab a snack! You probably earned it after reading through all that. And remember, shop at Zaku's Wall-o-Text for all your impenetrable wall-o-text needs! Guaranteed that 90% of people will never get through them, or your money back! (But, not your time, I'm keeping your time!)
 
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LordGigaIce

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That's kind of interesting. It means you can have plots and machinations that span multiple universes.
You don't need multiversal singularities to tell multiverse stories.

Personally, I feel like like Transformers is always at it's best when it embraces that it's a combination of technology AND magic. Science fiction AND Fantasy. Multiversal Singularities feel like a idea from a fantasy novel. And I just dig that.
I mean... I agree with you on Transformers being science fantasy. 100%

Where I don't agree with the that multiversal singularities are a natural extension of that. Sure, maybe they could be, but I'm a pretty big fantasy literature nerd and... um... it's not really a concept inherent in the idea. All powerful gods certainly are a staple, but the idea of multiversal singularities? Not so much.
I'm not saying you can't like the idea, but I wouldn't say it's going hand in hand with Transformers' fantasy credentials.

And then there's the whole "Optimus is the Thirteenth" thing. And I'll just remind people, that never came from the Club. It didn't even come from Furman. That came from Aligned! It was the Covenent of Primus Guidebook that did that. That was just Hasbro trying to make Optimus the most important character ever, because they were slowly sliding into their "G1 is all we do" phase. The Club and Furman, and even the concept of Multiversal Singularities is not at fault for that.
Never said they were. What I am saying, however, is that by getting rid of multiversal singularities you can give each continuity their own version of the Thirteen, and it's been done plenty. All of Optimus' most notable predecessors- Nova, Zeta, and Sentinel- have had goes as #13 in various continuities. And honestly? That's great.

Not only does it give creators freedom from the shackles of a bad creative decision (Optimus as the Thirteenth), but it allows each new creator to approach the mythos of the Thirteen in their own way. If the "multiversal singularities" thing was in play and adhered to (and what's the point of even having it if it's not adhered to?) then you could never do anything like IDW, which treated them like Euhemerist historical figures or TFO which used their betrayal and death to set up Orion's heroes journey.

I just don't see how "the Thirteen are multiversal singularities and therefore the roster and their power level and their very natures are immutable from one incarnation to the franchise to the next" is good from a storytelling perspective.

In retrospect I feel like Cybertron was kind of a "master of none" toyline.
I suppose it depends on how you're judging it. Are we looking at the gimmick aspect? If so, yes. Doing Armada's thing but replacing the Minicons with static "keys" certainly isn't as interesting.

As an overall toyline though? I think Cybertron is the strongest. It does the best job at balancing gimmicks with articulation and sculpting, in my opinion.
 

Echowarrior

Well-known member
Citizen
Said this before and I will say it again. Armada and Energon would be much more fondly remembered today if the dubs for both series hadn't been rushed, and the animation for the former hadn't been rushed. Cybertron, thankfully, didn't have such problems.

As far as comics go? I will curse Pat Lee to my dying day that we never got a conclusion to the Dreamwave Energon comics, and really wish that we had seen how Furman would've handled Cybertron's storyline. I also wish that we had gotten the MtMtE series for the Energon line.

Toys? I love Armada for the Mini-Cons, Energon had some neat releases, and Cybertron was a good balance between gimmicks and poseability.
 


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