Thread of Thoughts, Questions (and Maybe Even Answers) That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread

lastmaximal said:

I rather like that Boltax and Xaaron weren't in the Thirteen. We should have more standalone characters from various time periods playing various roles, and not everyone has to get dragged into that. The history and lore are more alive when it isn't all reduced down to coming from the same handful of bots.

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IMO, Alpha Trion was more interesting when he was like that, like Boltax and Xaaron, just a really old guy who's been around a long time and seen so much in his years, and that his longevity wasn't because he's actually a demigod.

And, well, he was also allowed to be young once. A puny little unassuming dude named "A-3" with a tiny black mustache. Now, though? "Alpha Trion of the Thirteen" is born old with a long white beard from get-go. Because natural aging is only for mere mortals, I guess. Demigods have to look like Father Time from birth.

Yup.

unluckiness said:

TF One was supposed to be The Thirteen’s debut to the general public. No guidebooks, no one-off appearances by individual members, no napkin.

They were taken out like chumps in a matter of minutes.

Cue Curb Your Enthusiasm theme.

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TFO takes a rather euhemeristic approach to the Thirteen I appreciate. Only unlike when IDW did it, TFO was spared it all being a part of Shockwave's Reddit atheist master plan.

And then IDW also had the Guiding Hand. Who were actually these five dudes (well, four guys and a Macguffin) we knew all along, but everyone forgot.

The Mighty Mollusk said:

And then IDW also had the Guiding Hand. Who were actually these five dudes (well, four guys and a Macguffin) we knew all along, but everyone forgot.

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And the Knights of Cybertron.

Who were apparently just dudes. And then they all died.

Even the little bit about Maccadam being more than a pub owner was picked up on and he's straight up a Prime now in at least one depiction.

The Mighty Mollusk said:

Who were apparently just dudes. And then they all died.

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I'm sensing a pattern

lastmaximal said:

Even the little bit about Maccadam being more than a pub owner was picked up on and he's straight up a Prime now in at least one depiction.

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To be fair, the seeds for that were planted very early on by the 2004 Legends anthology book story "Prime Spark", in which Maccadam's Old Oil House is explicitly depicted as having a connection to the afterlife while the bartender's identity is deliberately left cryptic and mysterious.

Sabrblade said:

IMO, Alpha Trion was more interesting when he was like that, like Boltax and Xaaron, just a really old guy who's been around a long time and seen so much in his years, and that his longevity wasn't because he's actually a demigod.

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lastmaximal said:

Even the little bit about Maccadam being more than a pub owner was picked up on and he's straight up a Prime now in at least one depiction.

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Throw in Rung too. He was much more fun when he was just a quirky psychiatrist.

Cybersnark said:

Throw in Rung too. He was much more fun when he was just a quirky psychiatrist.

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At the very least, Japanese Rung is an altogether distinct individual from Primus.

Sabrblade said:

To be fair, the seeds for that were planted very early on by the 2004 Legends anthology book story "Prime Spark", in which Maccadam's Old Oil House is explicitly depicted as having a connection to the afterlife while the bartender's identity is deliberately left cryptic and mysterious.

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That's my point. This sort of thing could have been left alone.

lastmaximal said:

That's my point. This sort of thing could have been left alone.

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I feel like the difference with Maccadam's case is that, unlike Alpha Trion, who was an established character with his own fleshed out personal history and role, prior to The Ultimate Guide, Maccadam was a total cipher, a complete nonentity with nothing at all to his name besides his name.

Even when the mustachioed bartender made his one and only appearance in the short black-and-white Marvel UK story "Out to Lunch!", he was never implied to be Maccadam himself, just one of several unnamed bartenders who worked there for Maccadam.

And even that wasn't fully certain either since the name "Maccadam" wasn't confirmed to be the name of the bar's owner in its two only appearances in Marvel UK ("Target: 2006" and "Out to Lunch!"). For all we knew, "Maccadam's" was just the name of the pub itself.

The Ultimate Guide implying something special about the pub and its owner gave them an air of mystique and intrigue where before there was not only neither but simply a blank slate with nothing at all. And it helped that it was all done by the same man who not only originally created "Maccadam's Old Oil House" in the first place but also first created the Thirteen as a concept and each individual member of the group's initial roster.

I kinda like the Maccadam thing because it’d be the equivalent of Jesus Christ, post-resurrection, effing off to the middle of nowhere and secretly running a highly profitable bar by turning water into booze.

LordGigaIce said:

TFO takes a rather euhemeristic approach to the Thirteen I appreciate. Only unlike when IDW did it, TFO was spared it all being a part of Shockwave's Reddit atheist master plan.

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my point of contention is that One plays with the creator god Primus stuff too. If they were just thirteen ancient rulers or something, it wouldn’t be so jarring and unceremonious

unluckiness said:

my point of contention is that One plays with the creator god Primus stuff too. If they were just thirteen ancient rulers or something, it wouldn’t be so jarring and unceremonious

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I get what TFO is going for, and the story it tells is basic but it works... it also keeps Optimus grounded because sure he's been selected by Robot God to be Bestest Boy, but so was Zeta and Zeta still got punk'd out. So Optimus being chosen as Prime doesn't mean he's an invisible god warrior. Which adds to the drama for upcoming stories as the War with the Decepticons expands (you know... in an alternate universe where there were upcoming stories ).

But it does create a bit of a disconnect where these thirteen divinely appointed warriors and leaders (and the movie leaves no ambiguity about Primus being a genuine divine force) all got taken out by their sassy secretary, his goth gf, and their squid army. Someone here (may have even been you) said it makes them come off less like the Olympians of Greek myth and more like the '90s Bulls.

It's the major pitfall of TFO's decision to not make Megatronus evil. It makes the Thirteen a united front, which should mean they're unstoppable, but again... not so much.

The story of Liege's manipulation and Megatronus' betrayal may be a bit cliched, but it does work to explain how the thirteen chosen children of Primus wielding the weapons of Robot God himself could fall. The only way they could fall, from within, is what happened. It allows the Thirteen to remain all powerful and awe-inspiring while giving a narratively satisfying answer as to how a group like that vanished.

TFO tries to reinvent the whole narrative, and in some ways it's compelling, but it does leave the Thirteen looking a wee bit s**t.

I mean, if the intent was to show that the Quintessons were so powerful that even these thirteen god-warriors couldn't stand against them, and thus Optimus now has to unite all of Cybertron to withstand their assault, that could salvage it a bit. But that would require actually getting sequels to flesh it out.

Or a prequel ABOUT the Primes that doesn't involve the usual G1 cast, but that would be a very hard sell for movie-budget, or even a video release. Possibly one of those simpler Youtube series, but most of those tend to be core-cast focused too. Maybe have it told as 'recovered files' Optimus found and/or got released from locked archives after his ascension.

"Transformers, Minus One"

Platypus Prime said:

Or a prequel ABOUT the Primes that doesn't involve the usual G1 cast, but that would be a very hard sell for movie-budget, or even a video release. Possibly one of those simpler Youtube series, but most of those tend to be core-cast focused too. Maybe have it told as 'recovered files' Optimus found and/or got released from locked archives after his ascension.

"Transformers, Minus One"

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Only if they establish that in the TFO universe, Dion became Sentinel.

LordGigaIce said:

The story of Liege's manipulation and Megatronus' betrayal may be a bit cliched, but it does work to explain how the thirteen chosen children of Primus wielding the weapons of Robot God himself could fall. The only way they could fall, from within, is what happened. It allows the Thirteen to remain all powerful and awe-inspiring while giving a narratively satisfying answer as to how a group like that vanished.

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Or there's the original Furman version of them all dying in the ancient battle with Unicron, giving their lives in a heroic last stand against the greatest evil known to Cybertron, all so that the greater Cybertronian race could first come about and then go on to thrive.

LordGigaIce said:

It's the major pitfall of TFO's decision to not make Megatronus evil.

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Did they decide that?

All I remember is that he was this mythical figure of great power that D-16 looked up to. I don't recall anything to indicate that there wasn't more... than meets the eye.