The Taxonomy of Toy-Based Fiction, or a further look at Continuity Families

NovaSaber

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I moved a response from the recent Timelines sub-toyline discussion over to here to mitigate thread drift.


Technically, AVP's analysis was more along the lines of "The Chronarchitect performed emergency surgery on a damaged universe when the local Cybertron was blown up." As Sabrblade points out, Cybertron got better anyway, and rumours of Primus' death were exaggerated.
I'm not talking about the specifics of what the answer said.

I'm talking about what prompted it in the first place, where someone simply asked for a universal stream for the Japanese G1 timeline and the answer was entirely based around "explaining" why the timeline incorporated bits from "multiple universes", which was bullshit because it didn't.
The Japanese G1 timeline published with Kiss Players material literally did not contain anything which had ever been specifically intended as not part of the G1/BW universe.
The most specific example being given was that that it incorporated "a Viron universe", even though Car Robots had in fact never been its own universe in Japan.

Actually, given Wrecker Hook, I even think Derik's false information about Robot Masters is a big part of why western fandom didn't realize Car Robots was in JG1 continuity until the timeline.
 

Sabrblade

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Actually, given Wrecker Hook, I even think Derik's false information about Robot Masters is a big part of why western fandom didn't realize Car Robots was in JG1 continuity until the timeline.
When RobotMasters came out, Derik and others were all riding the high of the multiversal crossover story told in the Universe comics, and most just assumed RobotMasters was something similar to that what with it likewise being a big crossover story, not realizing it only featured time travel and no multiversal travel. This is evident in cases where AVP mentioned the Blastizone from RobotMasters and merely assumed it was used for multiversal travel (but thankfully, every instance of the Blastizone mentioned in AVP was vague enough to NOT state that assumption outright).
 

Tuxedo Prime

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People also forget that the Chronarchitect died as a consequence of the time-destroying timestorm created by BW Megatron's attempt to kill G1 Optimus Prime in "The Agenda (Part III)".
I admit that I don't remember him dying -- he was in pain, and the transmission was lost, but I don't recall his death being specifically mentioned. I'll defer to your recollection (as you've been putting together a 3H-Beasties timeline) on this one, but even so, it is entirely possible (due to the Chronarchitect's nature) that his surgery on Primax 787.3 Alpha took place before his demise, despite the latter appearing to take place earlier from our perspective. Or, to paraphrase an expert on these things "People expect time to be a sequence of linear cause and effect, when it's really more a of a big, wibbly-wobbly ball of... timey-wimey... stuff."

AVP also making the "Ruler of Time and Space" from the Beast Wars Neo manga be the Chronarchitect also completely missed the fact that said "Ruler" is also known as the "Creator of the Universe" (which the Chronarchitect most certainly is not), implying that he's meant to be what is known in Japan as Kami-sama. In other words, God.

Wait, I thought that Tyr Odinson was "Kami-sama"....

If there had to a TF-original character that this Ruler needed to be retconned into being the same person as, The One (who is already a God-equivalent) was right there.

Surprisingly, The One even got fleshed out in JG1 year later by the Generations Selects manga, as being the superior of Primus who gave him his Golden Power, so The One would have fit the bill for the Beast Wars Neo manga character even better.
As with "The Matrix", "The One" may be a term that Transformers creatives may have reflexively avoided to avoid confusion with a bigger and even more pretentious franchise. Which doesn't negate your point, I'm just reaching for a likely explanation as to why a piece of Furman's lore from The Ultimate Guide (which was Aligned before Aligned) was not used in spite of its utility and appropriateness.
 

Tuxedo Prime

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I'm not talking about the specifics of what the answer said.
If that's the case, we may be fated to talk (type?) past each other. I can only apologize, as I'm not intentionally trying to do that.

I'm talking about what prompted it in the first place, where someone simply asked for a universal stream for the Japanese G1 timeline and the answer was entirely based around "explaining" why the timeline incorporated bits from "multiple universes", which was bullshit because it didn't.
"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view," to quote Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Forest Lee had, in the Cybertron tie-in comics, declared that the planet was a linchpin in a universe's ability to continue existing (which seemed to be borne out by the Primax universe visited by Armada Optimus Prime in the Dreamwave comics, but was not the case in "Rhythms of Darkness" -- which necessitated a different handwave about Primus' essence transferring to the surviving first-generation Transformers, including the Liege Maximo). Cybertron's blowing up in the Headmasters anime (but appearing in the Beast Era) created an apparent anomaly -- one that local writers would fix themselves, but at the time the question was posed, and given the Western conceptual framework of the Transformers multiverse....

The Japanese G1 timeline published with Kiss Players material literally did not contain anything which had ever been specifically intended as not part of the G1/BW universe.
The most specific example being given was that that it incorporated "a Viron universe", even though Car Robots had in fact never been its own universe in Japan.
And in the Timelines toys thread, we've just come off a discussion of the Binaltech Prowl/Spychanger Prowl 2/Transmetal 2 Prowl continuity headache that partially resulted from that (as people thought that RiD 2001 exclusive toys pressed into production because the line was selling like crack-infused fudge were retroactively part of CR continuity).

I've spoken at length before about Kiss Players being a cognitohazard lurking within Toei-G1, and as Sabrblade knows I have some strong thoughts on that point -- but while some of the characters would get caught up in temporal hijinks I can't blame the crazy EDC lady as I can (and do) Scorponok.

(In fact, an unrelated K-drama is making me slightly more sympathetic to her, but that will be for another thread.)

Actually, given Wrecker Hook, I even think Derik's false information about Robot Masters is a big part of why western fandom didn't realize Car Robots was in JG1 continuity until the timeline.
I don't think Juniper Walters touched RobotMasters. Hydra may have done, but as Sabr points out elsewhere, things were so vague (all I remember about the Blasty Zone was, as Walky put it, "it is a placey that existy"), and Galaxy Convoy showing up didn't help matters.

In short, while it's easy to blame Derik, I suspect that the fandom wanted "Universe, only cooler and Japanese", and it would have viewed RobotMasters through that lens regardless. So we all need to bear some responsibility on that front.
 

lastmaximal

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As a fan held back by the language barrier (and the at-the-time slower nature of material and media access compared to now), and as someone who repeated that inaccurate understanding early on in my post about Robotmasters packaging, I reject that last bit.

Speaking only for myself, I didn't "want" any such thing, or really anything. I just took Japanese media at translated-face value. See a news post, see it talked about, see a summary, see a term used a particular way, believe it. No practical option for fact-checking, and honestly not important enough to put through that kind of wringer.

If anything, any filling-in of blanks was done based on connecting the unfamiliar (this story and plot device conveyed in Japanese) to the familiar (this story and plot device I read and understood), which is something we do all the time -- rather than any Westernization- or Universe-ization wishful thinking.

Speaking as always as someone firmly outside of that whole community, it's interesting but also exhausting to see what could be reflective discussions about best practices end up shading into, well, shading people for atrocities against canon and fandom. Like, not to discount it, because one decision ends up being preserved and influencing the brand to an unprecedented degree for quite a long period of time, but... Sigh. It's like reading about old wrestling bookers just taking turns scripting each other and their less-untouchable allies to lose and look like fools.

Idk, maybe I'm just too old to get any satisfaction from any of that "who's got the pencil" jockeying and jousting anymore.
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
I admit that I don't remember him dying -- he was in pain, and the transmission was lost, but I don't recall his death being specifically mentioned.
"Existing beyond normal space and time, the Chronarchitect appeared at pivotal moments, bringing warning of possible divergences along the route wound by the intersecting courses of the timestream and the Grand Plan. But his last appearance had been a fractured, disjointed affair, one that had culminated in his apparent destruction. The Chronarchitect warned of a devastating disruption to the timestream, an anomaly that threatened the final dissolution of the Plan, and left them with a cryptic entreaty, 'return to the beginning'." -- Paradox

As with "The Matrix", "The One" may be a term that Transformers creatives may have reflexively avoided to avoid confusion with a bigger and even more pretentious franchise. Which doesn't negate your point, I'm just reaching for a likely explanation as to why a piece of Furman's lore from The Ultimate Guide (which was Aligned before Aligned) was not used in spite of its utility and appropriateness.
If I myself were to take a stab at a guess, I'd say The One was overlooked because of how, at the time, more of Derik's meddling had made people unwilling to touch The One with a ten-foot pole since The One's wiki page had been made a confusing convoluted mess at the time thanks to Derik's belief that the Vok were servants of The One. Recall that a certain AVP question that asked directly about the Vok's connection to The One pretty much skirted around the question entirely (and thank goodness for that since the Vok aren't servants of The One at all).

----

(as people thought that RiD 2001 exclusive toys pressed into production because the line was selling like crack-infused fudge were retroactively part of CR continuity).
Not "people", just one guy. One rabid theorist who was so full of himself that he would not let it go, and everyone and anyone who challenged his deluded ideas was argued into exhaustion by his persistent insistence. That's why his ideas about Prowl 2 made their way onto the wiki. All opposition was too exhausted to keep arguing and were like, "Whatever, I'm done with this!"

I don't think Juniper Walters touched RobotMasters.
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things were so vague
Only because no one on the English-speaking side of the fandom put in any active efforts to really explore and translate the RobotMasters fiction. The 2000s fandom was still in its "Oh, haha, Japan, you so hopelessly weird and foreign!" phase that no one really gave a care about finding out what was really going on RobotMasters, and those few that did were considered weebs. RobotMasters was, and still is, just very niche.

Binaltech, on the other hand, got more respect and more dedicated translation work since it dealt with more hard sci-fi and government conspiracies and tied directly in with Beast Wars via Ravage, which at the time was still regarded as "the one true coolest TF series EVAR!".

and Galaxy Convoy showing up didn't help matters.
That was only in the final 3D diorama comic, though. As a means to advertise the then-new Hybrid Style toy. The manga was the main story of RobotMasters.

No one in the 3D diorama comics was even shown to come from some other place, neither. Everyone who was a time traveler in the main manga was shown to already exist in the present-day setting of the 3D diorama comics without any explanation or mere mention of their originating from someplace else.

In short, while it's easy to blame Derik, I suspect that the fandom wanted "Universe, only cooler and Japanese", and it would have viewed RobotMasters through that lens regardless. So we all need to bear some responsibility on that front.
Another one of Derik's theories at the time attempted to further tie Universe and RobotMasters together by also including the Super Spychangers story into the mix, which Derik assumed was canon to the English Robots in Disguise dub, and thus further made a mess of things as he assumed that the new undisclosed threat mentioned in the Super Spychangers story was Unicron per the Universe War, and with RiD being a separate universe in the English version, he assumed the same was true of Car Robots and further fueled the misconception that RobotMasters featured dimensional travel instead of just time travel.

Thankfully, this particular theory of his never caught on, and the major flaw in it was the fact that no one working on the Universe comics at the time would have even been aware of the Super Spychangers story anyway, since that itself was barely known about in the English-speaking fandom anyway.
 
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NovaSaber

Well-known member
Citizen
"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view," to quote Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Forest Lee had, in the Cybertron tie-in comics, declared that the planet was a linchpin in a universe's ability to continue existing (which seemed to be borne out by the Primax universe visited by Armada Optimus Prime in the Dreamwave comics, but was not the case in "Rhythms of Darkness" -- which necessitated a different handwave about Primus' essence transferring to the surviving first-generation Transformers, including the Liege Maximo). Cybertron's blowing up in the Headmasters anime (but appearing in the Beast Era) created an apparent anomaly -- one that local writers would fix themselves, but at the time the question was posed, and given the Western conceptual framework of the Transformers multiverse....
The question asked was not "what were the consequences of Cybertron being destroyed".

It was "what was the universe of this timeline".
And the answer was "it wasn't originally one universe", which was based on the false idea of the published timeline containing "retcons" of that nature.

The stuff about the event from Headmasters being the "cause" of "why" the timeline contained things from "multiple universes" was expanding on that answer that already came from a false premise.
It was not starting with the premise "Cybertron's destruction should have larger consequences", and working forward from it (which could have been done without saying incorrect things about already-existing continuity).
It was starting from the false premise that some Crisis-level retcon nonsense had happened, and working backward to find a "cause", choosing Cybertron's "destruction" as it.
 
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LordGigaIce

Another babka?
Citizen
Cybertron's blowing up in the Headmasters anime (but appearing in the Beast Era) created an apparent anomaly -- one that local writers would fix themselves, but at the time the question was posed, and given the Western conceptual framework of the Transformers multiverse....
I mean... BW's writers intended for the show to be a G1 sequel, they just didn't nail down what version of G1 they were making a sequel to.
If you dig through every BW reference to G1 you broadly end up with a version of Sunbow G1 with a heaping helping of Marvel G1 elements, as well as some... creative interpretations of events from both.

Either the BW writers decided they didn't want a blown up Cybertron in the "present" of their new sequel show and so chose to ignore that plot point from Headmasters (as they did with multiple elements across various G1 media) or what's even more likely? They weren't aware of it. Widespread Western awareness of JG1 and those shows wouldn't pick up until well after BW's run was over.

Likely the "end of G1" they were working off of was Rebirth, which ends with Cybertron entering a new golden age. Which flows very nicely into the future BW presents (unless you're a Predacon terrorist, that is 😛).

And this touches on something that can be frustrating in fandom in general. So often we can hyper-fixate on inconsistencies and try to work them out... but often this stuff comes down to writers and show runners not really caring or remembering something wrong and making a mistake.
And we as fans should probably be better at pulling back from the minutia of trying to fit everything together and just go "ok they didn't care about that, that's why this thing doesn't make the most sense."
 

Sabrblade

Continuity Nutcase
Citizen
They weren't aware of it.
This right here. Bob and Larry were decidedly unfamiliar with G1 because, according to interviews they did later, they originally had no interest in Transformers at all because they thought the concept was doofy. It wasn't until they looked at it from a more hard sci-fi perspective that they decided they could make something worthwhile out of Beast Wars.

Likely the "end of G1" they were working off of was Rebirth, which ends with Cybertron entering a new golden age.
It's a little more complicated than that. While most of their G1/G2 knowledge came from fans, they did better acquaint themselves with some G1/G2 fiction first-hand, but between the two, Bob preferred the G1 cartoon while Larry favored the Marvel comics (especially Simon Furman's Marvel G2 comics, which Larry headcanon'd as being fully canon to the Beast Wars cartoon, albeit with the slight alteration of the Swarm having annihilated humanity, which did not happen in the comics, and which Bob wasn't too keen on agreeing with since he wasn't fond of the idea of humanity having been exterminated).
 

Tuxedo Prime

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"Existing beyond normal space and time, the Chronarchitect appeared at pivotal moments, bringing warning of possible divergences along the route wound by the intersecting courses of the timestream and the Grand Plan. But his last appearance had been a fractured, disjointed affair, one that had culminated in his apparent destruction. The Chronarchitect warned of a devastating disruption to the timestream, an anomaly that threatened the final dissolution of the Plan, and left them with a cryptic entreaty, 'return to the beginning'." -- Paradox
Okay, you highlighted "destruction", I italicized "apparent", because well, can we be sure?
But let's say yours is the correct reading. As with Cybertron Vector Prime, we could run into the character at a later point in our timeline but an earlier one in his, because that's just how characters of that type are.

Either way, I don't really see a disagreement, per se. Or a reason why the Chronarchitect couldn't have been the one to fix things in the wake of the apparent (emphasis mine again!) cataclysm over in Primax 787.3 Alpha. (should have been .03, but oh well).

If I myself were to take a stab at a guess, I'd say The One was overlooked because of how, at the time, more of Derik's meddling had made people unwilling to touch The One with a ten-foot pole since The One's wiki page had been made a confusing convoluted mess at the time thanks to Derik's belief that the Vok were servants of The One. Recall that a certain AVP question that asked directly about the Vok's connection to The One pretty much skirted around the question entirely (and thank goodness for that since the Vok aren't servants of The One at all).
Looked it over, it seemed to make sense to me. But -- as with a lot of these Phenomenal Powers That Are Literally Above It All, it can be hard to write for or about them, for the reasons one might expect going back to the old Greek plays. Now, if you follow that link, you'll see that Marvel had the One Above All actually show up, taking the form of Jack Kirby, as a tribute. Maybe someday some Transformers fiction might do similar (with Bob Budiansky, maybe?), but the Primus/Unicron thing has been more of the focus, and The One is in all likelihood never going to get a toy likeness (and again, this fiction is here to do what?), so there isn't that big push (unlike with other Numbered and Remote beings such as, oh, the Thirteen.... ;) )

Not "people", just one guy. One rabid theorist who was so full of himself that he would not let it go, and everyone and anyone who challenged his deluded ideas was argued into exhaustion by his persistent insistence. That's why his ideas about Prowl 2 made their way onto the wiki. All opposition was too exhausted to keep arguing and were like, "Whatever, I'm done with this!"
I kind of wish I had that level of confidence in my fixed ideas, to be honest.
But aside from declaring Kiss Players a cognitohazard, and making sure that people do not forget a certain fan character and an unrelated fan series, there hasn't been too much for me to insist upon. Am I... becoming casual?


Sabr, come on. We've discussed said individual in messages, you can't have forgotten.
star-lord-are-you-kidding-me.gif


I use an alias she's had since the mid-1990s for her writing, because even way back then she was worried about doxxing.

Only because no one on the English-speaking side of the fandom put in any active efforts to really explore and translate the RobotMasters fiction. The 2000s fandom was still in its "Oh, haha, Japan, you so hopelessly weird and foreign!" phase that no one really gave a care about finding out what was really going on RobotMasters, and those few that did were considered weebs.

Well, back then we were still appropriating the Japanese word "otaku", but the point stands.

Binaltech, on the other hand, got more respect and more dedicated translation work since it dealt with more hard sci-fi and government conspiracies and tied directly in with Beast Wars via Ravage, which at the time was still regarded as "the one true coolest TF series EVAR!".
Ravage's appearance in "The Agenda" was definitely a high water mark for Mainframe-Beasties, and I think it brought over just about everyone still on the fence save for Raksha and Skyflight. (They were, of course, still upset by what they saw as two Ass Pulls in the Animated Movie and "The Rebirth" that prevented an eternal Decepticon victory. What can one say in the face of that?) Having that version come back to Binaltech would definitely have been a lift for attracting the attention of fans overseas (of which some of the Japanese creatives were becoming aware).

That was only in the final 3D diorama comic, though. As a means to advertise the then-new Hybrid Style toy. The manga was the main story of RobotMasters.

Even so, one can see the precedent. If Galaxy Convoy showed up from... well, at that point, Cybertron was presumably an Aurex stream but not the Aurex Stream, because of miscommunications amongst the creatives, but if he was from there then why not Double Face/Sideways?
And Derik ran with that, and in the face of us only knowing that the Blasty Zone was "a placey that existy", and Universe (2003) being right there with a "May contain characters from any continuity" label... well, the rest is bunk.
 

LBD "Nytetrayn"

Broke the Matrix
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(They were, of course, still upset by what they saw as two Ass Pulls in the Animated Movie and "The Rebirth" that prevented an eternal Decepticon victory. What can one say in the face of that?)

Oh, wait, wait... I want to hear more about this.

Do they even know what this franchise is?!
 

lastmaximal

Administrator
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Council of Elders
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They've been around since the beginning, they know. (Knew, in the case of Skyflight, iirc. RIP.) It's just one of those early internet "made this aspect of fandom my whole (online, at minimum) brand/identity" things. This was back in the much simpler times of pre-message-board-even internet with smaller, tighter-knit communities where individuals with a quirk would stand out more, and that was quite the quirk and quite the level of commitment.

But yeah. Everything viewed through the lens of rooting for the (Decepticon) empire. It's what you'd expect, I imagine.
 


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