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@  Nevermore : (17 May 2021 - 05:15 AM)

So, then, isn't redecoing or retooling an existing toy also "fixing" someone else's art?

@  PlutoniumBoss : (16 May 2021 - 10:07 PM)

A toy is not on the same level as a piece of drawn art, true, but it is 100% an entertainment product.

@  Nevermore : (16 May 2021 - 05:05 PM)

A toy is an object of utility, Comparing that to a piece of drawn art is grossly ignoring the difference between the two. Also, you didn't answer my questions. Try again.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (16 May 2021 - 04:25 PM)

Part of the difference is that those covers are primarily one person's art. Sure, you probably have an inker and a colorist, but the lines and composition are one person. A toy however is a team design at pretty much all levels.

@  Cyoti : (16 May 2021 - 03:52 PM)

toymaking is a collaborative process, you have to make compromises and factories are going to get things wrong

@  tigerhawk : (16 May 2021 - 03:43 PM)

Earthrise had a few holes, Runamuck's legs YIKES!

@  NotVeryKnightly : (16 May 2021 - 03:37 PM)

I doubt that say, the designer for Kingdom Cheetor was happy about every bit of unpainted plastic on it.

@  Bass X0 : (16 May 2021 - 03:28 PM)

J Scott Campbell recently had his Spiderman cover "fixed" by someone online. A few weeks ago, someone on twitter "fixed" someone's Sonic the Hedgehog fan art where Sonic, Tails and Knuckles were drawn as humans. Both times and other times, the "fixer" gets called out and criticised as you shouldn't go around "fixing" someone else's art because its rude and disrespectful to the original artist. And I was thinking isn't "fixed your s*** for ya" exactly what toy customisers do?

@  Nevermore : (16 May 2021 - 02:28 PM)

Have you ever changed your car in any way whatsoever compared to the factory configuration, or are you leaving the designer's art unchanged in that case as well?

@  CORVUS : (16 May 2021 - 02:28 PM)

It's best not to ponder it too hard.

@  Nevermore : (16 May 2021 - 04:16 AM)

Bass X0, I really wonder sometimes how you come up with these random tangents apropos of nothing.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (16 May 2021 - 04:11 AM)

It's collaborative art.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (16 May 2021 - 04:07 AM)

Toys are subject to budget constraints, so its not like customizing would ruin the designer's vision or whatever.

@  Bass X0 : (16 May 2021 - 03:38 AM)

Isn't customising a toy just "fixing other people's art"?

@  PlutoniumBoss : (16 May 2021 - 02:58 AM)

Oops, All Berries

@  Sabrblade : (16 May 2021 - 12:47 AM)

Nope, Chuck Berry

@  PlutoniumBoss : (15 May 2021 - 10:42 PM)

Nope, Chuck Testa.

@  Steevy Maximus : (15 May 2021 - 10:41 PM)

English needs to revive Chuck Finley in everyday text

@  Xero Prime : (15 May 2021 - 09:09 PM)

English needs to revive Mindy in everyday text.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (15 May 2021 - 08:07 PM)

English needs to revive book in everyday text.

@  Sabrblade : (15 May 2021 - 04:00 PM)

English needs to revive Mook in everyday text

@  Steevy Maximus : (15 May 2021 - 03:42 PM)

English needs to revive Mork in everyday text

@  CORVUS : (15 May 2021 - 02:21 PM)

English needs to revive Morn in everyday text

@  Nevermore : (15 May 2021 - 12:38 PM)

English needs to revive Gorn in everyday text

@  Sabrblade : (15 May 2021 - 09:46 AM)

English needs to revive Gore in everyday text

@  Bass X0 : (15 May 2021 - 09:45 AM)

English needs to revive Gort in everyday text

@  TheMightyMol... : (15 May 2021 - 06:52 AM)

English needs to revive bort in everyday text

@  Telly : (15 May 2021 - 01:12 AM)

English needs to revive bork in everyday text

@  NovaSaber : (15 May 2021 - 12:15 AM)

English needs to revive dork in everyday text.

@  Sabrblade : (14 May 2021 - 09:34 PM)

English needs to revive pork in everyday text.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (14 May 2021 - 09:26 PM)

English needs to revive porn in everyday text.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (14 May 2021 - 09:10 PM)

English needs to revive Ģorn in everyday text.

@  Patch : (14 May 2021 - 05:53 PM)

:cheet

@  Nevermore : (14 May 2021 - 06:09 AM)

š

@  TheMightyMol... : (14 May 2021 - 04:49 AM)

#

@  PlutoniumBoss : (14 May 2021 - 03:50 AM)

4

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (13 May 2021 - 11:46 PM)

h

@  Telly : (13 May 2021 - 09:08 PM)

g

@  CORVUS : (13 May 2021 - 08:54 PM)

i

@  Trigggerr : (13 May 2021 - 07:46 PM)

h

@  TheMightyMol... : (13 May 2021 - 04:41 PM)

Yeah, my hybrid does that when idling or at low speeds. Otherwise it's almost completely silent.

@  ZakuConvoy : (13 May 2021 - 02:27 PM)

That might actually be a fake noise they make electric cars make so pedestrians can hear them. Some cars even let you pick out what noise they make.

@  wonko the sane? : (13 May 2021 - 11:20 AM)

Actually heard a car with that electric, scifi-hum to it. Made me realize that we kinda are living in the future...

@  tigerhawk : (13 May 2021 - 03:28 AM)

Nearly thirty Studio Series figs including the '86 line. "I won't touch that." I said a few years ago when deluxe wave 5 came to my store for a tenner each. My latest one' is 72 Starscream.

@  Steevy Maximus : (10 May 2021 - 05:22 PM)

God, it's such a pain to have a local email address shut down. So many accounts to update...

@  Bass X0 : (10 May 2021 - 04:43 PM)

"Let's make a bargain, shall we? You ask Primus for help and I'll stop the moment He shows up."

@  tigerhawk : (10 May 2021 - 02:56 AM)

The 1988 G1 line up could all have been done as Titan Master things, I figure the Pretenders could be done as Titan Master Drones and Prime Master shells.

@  Cyoti : (08 May 2021 - 11:14 AM)

Perfect is the enemy of the good. And it's still better than making him a remold of RTS Jazz as planned originally. Fact of the matter is: Nightbeat is just not a priority with Hasbro.

@  Demovere Xeno : (08 May 2021 - 08:58 AM)

Generations Nightbeat never really scratched that itch sadly; he looked okay, but his transformation was fiddly, his robot mode had far too many bits and pieces flopping around unsecured, and his chest dragged along the surface in var mode. =/

@  Demovere Xeno : (08 May 2021 - 08:57 AM)

I second wishing that we got a Deluxe Nightbeat from TR, mostly because as a kid he was second-in-command to my old Powermaster Optimus for the longest time. =P


Photo
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The Muppets's lack of success on TV after The Muppet Show.


38 replies to this topic

#1 CastletonSnob

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 01:02 PM

I’ve been getting into The Muppets lately, and I just realized that none of the shows after The Muppet Show were nearly as successful, with the exception of Muppet Babies.

Why haven’t the post-Muppet Show shows been as successful? Is it because the Muppets are a product of their time? Kids today probably have no idea what a variety show even is, which is what the Muppet Show was making fun of. And yes, I know the Muppets were originally intended for general audiences, like Looney Tunes, but also like Looney Tunes, they’re now marketed toward kids.



#2 Joker

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 01:56 PM

Its easy to throw the blame at the feet of Disney not understanding The Muppets (which is definitely a problem imo) but it does go back further than that since Muppets Tonight only lasted 2 seasons. Really I would guess its probably because The Muppets are designed to work in a variety show format and that hasn't been a popular television format for awhile now.

 

They key is to find a new format that really works for the Muppets. Or revive interest in variety shows.



#3 CastletonSnob

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 02:39 PM

Its easy to throw the blame at the feet of Disney not understanding The Muppets (which is definitely a problem imo) but it does go back further than that since Muppets Tonight only lasted 2 seasons. Really I would guess its probably because The Muppets are designed to work in a variety show format and that hasn't been a popular television format for awhile now.

 

They key is to find a new format that really works for the Muppets. Or revive interest in variety shows.

Disney often gets blamed for ruining The Muppets, but the franchise was on a downwards spiral even before Disney bought them, with Muppets Tonight, which, before the 2015 Muppets show, was the most divisive entry in the series, and Muppets From Space, arguably the worst of the feature films.


Edited by CastletonSnob, 02 September 2020 - 02:43 PM.


#4 Rust

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 03:30 PM

Tastes change. I adore the Muppets, but at a certain point you have to accept it's just not popular any longer.

#5 Cybersnark

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 04:11 PM

I maintain that the late-night talk show of "The Muppets" was a perfect format, they just didn't use it right. It was too focused on the Muppets themselves and the guests were treated as glorified one-scene cameos.

The Muppets are a supporting cast, not the stars. Their purpose is to provide wackiness for the (solitary) guest star (who always got at least one on-stage act, a backstage scene, and the dressing room cold open).

So, set it up like a late-night talk show. We get the 15-second green-room intro featuring the one guest, the title sequence, the opening monologue, a backstage segment, an "interview" with the guest (who is, of course, here because they have a movie or project to advertise), another backstage sequence, another guest-star bit (maybe presented as a "clip" from their new movie), and finally the sign off.

#6 Sabrblade

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 05:50 PM

The Muppets are a supporting cast, not the stars. Their purpose is to provide wackiness for the (solitary) guest star (who always got at least one on-stage act, a backstage scene, and the dressing room cold open).

 

Yeah, that all changed when the first three films, which were under Jim Henson's tenure, took that spotlight off of the celebrity guest stars and instead focused on Kermit himself.

 

The Muppet Christmas Carol is the only one of the classic Muppet films to actually return to that celebrity focus format, with Michael Caine in the lead starring role while the Muppet cast played off of him and around him.

 

Well, okay, Muppet Treasure Island kinda did too, but I feel it gave a more equal, balanced focus between its human and Muppet casts.


Edited by Sabrblade, 02 September 2020 - 05:50 PM.

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QUOTE(Bass X0 @ Aug 17 2013, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the concept of being educated and being able to educate is something that more people need more of in their lives.

No, we don't all know everything but we should spread and share that what we do know.

If I'm consistently misspelling a word, I would want and expect people to correct me as should I imagine all decent people who know the value of good literacy.

Its just arrogant laziness to know you're spelling a word incorrectly and not correct yourself or ignore the advice when people do tell you how to spell a word correctly.

#7 Joker

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 05:56 PM

I maintain that the late-night talk show of "The Muppets" was a perfect format, they just didn't use it right. It was too focused on the Muppets themselves and the guests were treated as glorified one-scene cameos.

The Muppets are a supporting cast, not the stars. Their purpose is to provide wackiness for the (solitary) guest star (who always got at least one on-stage act, a backstage scene, and the dressing room cold open).

So, set it up like a late-night talk show. We get the 15-second green-room intro featuring the one guest, the title sequence, the opening monologue, a backstage segment, an "interview" with the guest (who is, of course, here because they have a movie or project to advertise), another backstage sequence, another guest-star bit (maybe presented as a "clip" from their new movie), and finally the sign off.

That is actually a brilliant idea. I would love to watch that show.



#8 Telly

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 07:42 PM

i like muppets from space...


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#9 Paladin

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 07:54 PM

Muppets Tonight was AMAZING and it's a crime the series hasn't had a proper home media release. 


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#10 Shadewing

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 10:08 PM

Muppets Tonight was AMAZING and it's a crime the series hasn't had a proper home media release. 

One of my favorites is there tribute to one of the classic Muppet Show skits:


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#11 Maruten

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 11:14 PM

Obviously the absence of Jim is a factor for most of the post-TMS stuff. Of course, he was still there for The Jim Henson Hour, which was mostly brilliant but crashed and burned largely I think because it was just a bit too innovative for its own good.

Muppets Tonight was spectacular. I think the low volume of Kermit (and "legacy" characters generally perhaps) was a blow against it in the wider audience's eyes, even though it was simultaneously creating a swarm of new characters who were just bloody superb, many of whom remain mainstays to this day - so nice that at least they stuck. I think it was also punished for Not Being The Muppet Show.

The (Television Situation Comedy) Muppets was great I think, it was a surprising take and it clearly didn't work for a lot of people. I think the workplace comedy format was considered old and tired, which is ironic given how well people tolerated The Muppet Show's vaudeville roots.

I'm enjoying Muppets Now, though from what I've seen most of the fandom isn't. I love that recent projects like this and The Muppets are really embracing characters like Scooter and Chef who basically disappeared for decades after Jim and Richard's deaths, or at least went for many years without ever seeing a major role. Uncle Deadly and Miss Piggy is one of those bizarre pairings that just seems to work and so has become an ongoing thing.

Meanwhile, worth noting that TMS had INCREDIBLE, CRAZY success. No Muppets project will top the peak of that show's popularity. So there's that.

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#12 Sabrblade

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 11:34 PM

Meanwhile, worth noting that TMS had INCREDIBLE, CRAZY success. No Muppets project will top the peak of that show's popularity. So there's that.

 

On the other hand, Sesame Street did just celebrate its 50th anniversary last year. ;)


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QUOTE(Bass X0 @ Aug 17 2013, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the concept of being educated and being able to educate is something that more people need more of in their lives.

No, we don't all know everything but we should spread and share that what we do know.

If I'm consistently misspelling a word, I would want and expect people to correct me as should I imagine all decent people who know the value of good literacy.

Its just arrogant laziness to know you're spelling a word incorrectly and not correct yourself or ignore the advice when people do tell you how to spell a word correctly.

#13 Maruten

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 12:22 AM

Oh, sure, Sesame Street is brilliant and beloved and eternal, but it's not the same thing.


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#14 Echowarrior

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 09:06 AM

Scheduling might also have been an issue. Just saying.


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#15 Pocket

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 01:54 PM

Really I would guess its probably because The Muppets are designed to work in a variety show format and that hasn't been a popular television format for awhile now.

I don't buy this argument. Both the original Muppet Show and Muppets Tonight were closer to sketch comedy shows in the vein of Saturday Night Live, and that show is still chugging along and was still a hot property in the late '90s.

 

I think the bigger problem is that the Muppets themselves, as an IP, have reached a point of only appealing to older people who are still nostalgic for them. To anyone else, the idea of a show or movie starring puppets feels... quaint. Even if the Muppets' whole appeal was shaking up the formula by not being quaint in an era where people were already starting to feel that way. The novelty of that schtick only lasted for so long; after that, they banked on making family movies for established fans to watch with their kids, and then those kids grew up and only remembered them as a silly puppet show for kids.

 

At this point, the biggest hurdle is just convincing people to tune in at all.


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#16 mx-01 archon

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 01:57 PM

Tastes change. I adore the Muppets, but at a certain point you have to accept it's just not popular any longer.

Ironically largely the crux of the plot of the 2011 movie that helped launch them into the bigtime again... only for them to fizzle out and die again in short order.



#17 The Predaking

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 02:49 PM

I liked that movie. The music was great and Jim Parson's cameo was perfect. 


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#18 bigbot69

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 03:12 PM

 

Tastes change. I adore the Muppets, but at a certain point you have to accept it's just not popular any longer.

Ironically largely the crux of the plot of the 2011 movie that helped launch them into the bigtime again... only for them to fizzle out and die again in short order.

 

 

Blame Muppets Most Wanted for that drop.

 

 


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#19 ZakuConvoy

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 04:08 PM

Count me in as someone who fondly remembers Muppets Tonight.

 

"Look at those lobsters out there. Aren't they cute? With their little lobster outfits, their little lobster guitars, and their little lobster semiautomatic weapons.

 

....

 

(O_O)"

 

As for why they aren't as successful as they once were...well, can you name a property that's still going strong 40 years later?  This isn't just a problem exclusive to the Muppets.  Looney Tunes, Mickey Mouse, all the old standard-bearers can't seem to really get a BIG success and have to constantly reinvent themselves in order to try (and mostly fail) to stay relevant.  Sure, there are cult favorites that pop up (like the Looney Tunes Show and the new Mickey Mouse shorts), but I don't think anything for any of these properties has been truly, HUGELY successful (...maybe Mickey Mouse Clubhouse).

 

And then there's the state of comedy right now.  I can't help but feel like comedy, while not dead, is on heavy life support.  Seriously, what's the biggest, most successful comedy of the last 10 years?  The Big Bang Theory?  Maybe something like Always Sunny in Philadelphia?  Can you name a comedy movie that was a big box office smash in the last 10 years?  A lot of the Marvel movies have heavy comedy elements, but they're largely action movies, not comedies.  Maybe it's just the segmentation of society, where everyone gets their individual tastes catered to, instead of having to consume what everyone else is given, but I can't help but feel like comedy, as a focus, is dying.

 

And honestly...choosing to end the Muppets Show when he did was probably the biggest mistake of Jim Henson's life.  Yes, from what I understand, the TV executives actually wanted to continue the Muppets Show, but Jim wanted to focus on newer, fresher ideas and didn't want to split his attention, since he was a bit TOO hands on sometimes.  If he hadn't, it might've ended up like Sesame Street or The Simpsons, something that just isn't ALLOWED to go away.  ...Not sure if that would've been a good thing or a bad thing, but it's a possibility.

 

More on that here (this entire miniseries is just great, by the way):

 

And, yeah, like others have said, the things that made them a little daring and a little challenging decades ago...just make them feel quaint now.  Their style of comedy just might be a little outdated.  And trying to change that style threatens to make them feel out of character.  It's a tricky balance.  

 

I think they COULD still be successful again, given the right combination of talent and luck.  The 2011 movie proves that, I think.  I'm just not sure how you sustain that, long-term.


Edited by ZakuConvoy, 03 September 2020 - 04:21 PM.


#20 Maruten

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 07:59 PM

I think The Muppets: The Movie and MMW opened the doors to a new generation of younger fans, but... those new fans were never going to fall in love with The Muppets: The Adult-Skewing Sitcom. So, a sad disconnect there maybe. 


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