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@  Sabrblade : (21 June 2021 - 08:58 PM)

Daddy!

@  Kalidor : (21 June 2021 - 04:50 PM)

Not just any girl - your mom!

@  Steevy Maximus : (20 June 2021 - 08:19 AM)

Happy Knocked-Up-A-Girl Day!

@  Bass X0 : (20 June 2021 - 02:13 AM)

Happy father's day!

@  Hot Rod Mustang : (19 June 2021 - 07:45 PM)

what up sluts?

@  TheMightyMol... : (19 June 2021 - 07:20 PM)

Only 6? Filthy casual.

@  wonko the sane? : (19 June 2021 - 04:26 PM)

Multiplaying as in "playing with other people" or multiplaying as in "6 WoW accounts running at the same time"?

@  Steevy Maximus : (19 June 2021 - 01:45 PM)

Oh no! Darkeklaw is multiplaying! (See birthday box)

@  tigerhawk : (19 June 2021 - 11:54 AM)

In my Marvel comic canon the second wave of special teams were handpicked active robots whose experience would theoretically make more stable combiners, the Combaticons came from Cybertron, the Protectobots were imprinted from crystals explaining both Onslauhghts ancestry and First Aid's experience.

@  Dekafox : (18 June 2021 - 05:24 PM)

Spotlight: Lioconvoy?

@  Bass X0 : (18 June 2021 - 04:15 PM)

How long until IDW puts out an Optimus Pride Month comic?

@  Cyoti : (18 June 2021 - 03:32 PM)

Even with B5, it didn't follow its original 5-year plan. Summaries from the supplementary materials for the scriptbooks demonstrates that was originally planned was very different from the actual product. Sinclair's actor's departure seemingly changed the show to the point that the stuff with the Vorlons/Shadows, the Minbari and the ending were all changed. Mapping out a show years in advance is difficult because of changing bts stuff like writers/actors leaving the show or suddenly having to retool because of ratings/execs. No plan survives intact especially in a chaotic environment of television production.

@  Rycochet : (18 June 2021 - 11:27 AM)

To be like Babylon 5, you need to cram a 2 season story arc into one because you fear being cancelled, then get further seasons you have no more material for. You also need a spinoff which the network heads don't want and do everything in their power to kill it while it's on air.

@  wonko the sane? : (18 June 2021 - 10:33 AM)

The required effort is probably why we don't have babylon 6; TNG.

@  Dekafox : (18 June 2021 - 10:23 AM)

Everyone wants to be like Babylon 5 but no one wants to put in the effort

@  Nevermore : (18 June 2021 - 09:36 AM)

And then, after five years of hosting their own official podcast where they would answer fan questions and always encouraged their audience to pay attention to the mysteries, after the show had ended, they claimed the show was never really about the mysteries, it was all about the characters.

@  Nevermore : (18 June 2021 - 09:34 AM)

What really bugs me with "Lost" is that the producers had willfully negotiated a set end date with the network halfway through season 3 (the show ended with season 6, as planned) specifically so they could plan out the plot for the remainder of the show. Then... the plot wasn't resolved properly.

@  tigerhawk : (18 June 2021 - 04:17 AM)

By then I had lost interest in arc TV shows, I followed a few and got the impression they were just making them up as they went along. Seemed to be a trend starting with new Galactica and Lost though in actuality began with The X Files and has become a trope called 'The Chris Carter Effect'.

@  Nevermore : (18 June 2021 - 02:12 AM)

I think it was season 3 part 1 specifically, since they had two separate plot "arcs" for season 3.

@  Nevermore : (18 June 2021 - 02:11 AM)

They threw everything in there, with no clear story structure, no clear stakes, and characters flip-flopping wherever the episode's writer needed them to go for their half-baked plot.

@  Nevermore : (18 June 2021 - 02:10 AM)

Season 3 was the worst, with a terrible meandering random events plot.

@  tigerhawk : (17 June 2021 - 11:59 PM)

'save the cheerleader' then in season 3 he tears her skull open, scans her power and she simply heals. They didn't think any of it through.

@  Shockwave 75 : (17 June 2021 - 07:04 PM)

Well, you know Hollywood; if something's popular, run it into the ground!

@  Cybersnark : (17 June 2021 - 04:40 PM)

And then there was the Writers' Strike, which isn't the show's fault.

@  Cybersnark : (17 June 2021 - 04:40 PM)

Yeah, Sylar should've been, if not killed off, at least left to rest.

@  Nevermore : (17 June 2021 - 03:43 PM)

It never truly recovered from that.

@  Nevermore : (17 June 2021 - 03:43 PM)

Season 1 was good until the finale.

@  Paladin : (17 June 2021 - 09:37 AM)

because it sucked.

@  tigerhawk : (17 June 2021 - 08:58 AM)

Heroes was cancelled twice.

@  Nevermore : (17 June 2021 - 06:33 AM)

The song's official name is "Holding Out for a Hero".

@  PlutoniumBoss : (17 June 2021 - 12:54 AM)

That's a long time to wait for a sandwich.

@  Maruten : (16 June 2021 - 07:13 PM)

Lucky there's a hero arriving in July.

@  Steevy Maximus : (16 June 2021 - 05:38 PM)

I think I've heard "I Need a Hero" more times this past week than I have in the past several years.

@  tigerhawk : (16 June 2021 - 12:41 PM)

Thanks to Earthrise I can recreate the end of Return of Optimus Prime part 1.

@  wonko the sane? : (16 June 2021 - 11:19 AM)

I wish they would do something like that here: but then it would become obvious in which provinces you're getting gouged.

@  Nevermore : (16 June 2021 - 10:42 AM)

Here in Germany, the price you see is the price you pay, tax included.

@  Nevermore : (16 June 2021 - 10:42 AM)

I always find it weaird hearing that stores in the US don't initially already taxes in their prices.

@  Nevermore : (16 June 2021 - 04:33 AM)

You know what's kewl? Poor literacy.

@  wonko the sane? : (15 June 2021 - 04:31 PM)

Awesome, thanks for the heads up.

@  CORVUS : (15 June 2021 - 04:12 PM)

Kewl. Thanks!

@  Kalidor : (15 June 2021 - 02:08 PM)

Hey everybody! I wanted to announce that Sarahthecutevixen is our newest addition to the Allspark staff. She's primarily looking over discord stuff, but I wanted to make sure she got a welcome over here as well.

@  NovaSaber : (14 June 2021 - 11:07 AM)

Turn-Bass RPG

@  Sabrblade : (14 June 2021 - 10:21 AM)

Do not X0 quietly into the night.

@  ▲ndrusi : (14 June 2021 - 10:13 AM)

All your Bass are--

@  Donocropolis : (14 June 2021 - 05:56 AM)

*Bass X0 not available in Alaska or Hawaii.

@  Steevy Maximus : (13 June 2021 - 07:36 PM)

Get your own Big Mouth BassX0 for the low price of $19.95 (plusshippingandhandling)

@  repowers : (13 June 2021 - 12:45 PM)

Mr. Speaker, we are for the Bass X0.

@  Nevermore : (13 June 2021 - 06:04 AM)

It's all about that Bass XD.

@  tigerhawk : (13 June 2021 - 02:16 AM)

Will altering the moons orbit in any way help.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (13 June 2021 - 01:51 AM)

Now that you have seen this Bass XO, you must send it to five other Bass XOs or BassXO will come to you in a week and then you too will be BassXO.


Photo
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The Muppets's lack of success on TV after The Muppet Show.


38 replies to this topic

#1 CastletonSnob

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 01:02 PM

I’ve been getting into The Muppets lately, and I just realized that none of the shows after The Muppet Show were nearly as successful, with the exception of Muppet Babies.

Why haven’t the post-Muppet Show shows been as successful? Is it because the Muppets are a product of their time? Kids today probably have no idea what a variety show even is, which is what the Muppet Show was making fun of. And yes, I know the Muppets were originally intended for general audiences, like Looney Tunes, but also like Looney Tunes, they’re now marketed toward kids.



#2 Joker

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 01:56 PM

Its easy to throw the blame at the feet of Disney not understanding The Muppets (which is definitely a problem imo) but it does go back further than that since Muppets Tonight only lasted 2 seasons. Really I would guess its probably because The Muppets are designed to work in a variety show format and that hasn't been a popular television format for awhile now.

 

They key is to find a new format that really works for the Muppets. Or revive interest in variety shows.



#3 CastletonSnob

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 02:39 PM

Its easy to throw the blame at the feet of Disney not understanding The Muppets (which is definitely a problem imo) but it does go back further than that since Muppets Tonight only lasted 2 seasons. Really I would guess its probably because The Muppets are designed to work in a variety show format and that hasn't been a popular television format for awhile now.

 

They key is to find a new format that really works for the Muppets. Or revive interest in variety shows.

Disney often gets blamed for ruining The Muppets, but the franchise was on a downwards spiral even before Disney bought them, with Muppets Tonight, which, before the 2015 Muppets show, was the most divisive entry in the series, and Muppets From Space, arguably the worst of the feature films.


Edited by CastletonSnob, 02 September 2020 - 02:43 PM.


#4 Rust

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 03:30 PM

Tastes change. I adore the Muppets, but at a certain point you have to accept it's just not popular any longer.

#5 Cybersnark

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 04:11 PM

I maintain that the late-night talk show of "The Muppets" was a perfect format, they just didn't use it right. It was too focused on the Muppets themselves and the guests were treated as glorified one-scene cameos.

The Muppets are a supporting cast, not the stars. Their purpose is to provide wackiness for the (solitary) guest star (who always got at least one on-stage act, a backstage scene, and the dressing room cold open).

So, set it up like a late-night talk show. We get the 15-second green-room intro featuring the one guest, the title sequence, the opening monologue, a backstage segment, an "interview" with the guest (who is, of course, here because they have a movie or project to advertise), another backstage sequence, another guest-star bit (maybe presented as a "clip" from their new movie), and finally the sign off.

#6 Sabrblade

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 05:50 PM

The Muppets are a supporting cast, not the stars. Their purpose is to provide wackiness for the (solitary) guest star (who always got at least one on-stage act, a backstage scene, and the dressing room cold open).

 

Yeah, that all changed when the first three films, which were under Jim Henson's tenure, took that spotlight off of the celebrity guest stars and instead focused on Kermit himself.

 

The Muppet Christmas Carol is the only one of the classic Muppet films to actually return to that celebrity focus format, with Michael Caine in the lead starring role while the Muppet cast played off of him and around him.

 

Well, okay, Muppet Treasure Island kinda did too, but I feel it gave a more equal, balanced focus between its human and Muppet casts.


Edited by Sabrblade, 02 September 2020 - 05:50 PM.

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QUOTE(Bass X0 @ Aug 17 2013, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the concept of being educated and being able to educate is something that more people need more of in their lives.

No, we don't all know everything but we should spread and share that what we do know.

If I'm consistently misspelling a word, I would want and expect people to correct me as should I imagine all decent people who know the value of good literacy.

Its just arrogant laziness to know you're spelling a word incorrectly and not correct yourself or ignore the advice when people do tell you how to spell a word correctly.

#7 Joker

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 05:56 PM

I maintain that the late-night talk show of "The Muppets" was a perfect format, they just didn't use it right. It was too focused on the Muppets themselves and the guests were treated as glorified one-scene cameos.

The Muppets are a supporting cast, not the stars. Their purpose is to provide wackiness for the (solitary) guest star (who always got at least one on-stage act, a backstage scene, and the dressing room cold open).

So, set it up like a late-night talk show. We get the 15-second green-room intro featuring the one guest, the title sequence, the opening monologue, a backstage segment, an "interview" with the guest (who is, of course, here because they have a movie or project to advertise), another backstage sequence, another guest-star bit (maybe presented as a "clip" from their new movie), and finally the sign off.

That is actually a brilliant idea. I would love to watch that show.



#8 Telly

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 07:42 PM

i like muppets from space...


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#9 Paladin

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 07:54 PM

Muppets Tonight was AMAZING and it's a crime the series hasn't had a proper home media release. 


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#10 Shadewing

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 10:08 PM

Muppets Tonight was AMAZING and it's a crime the series hasn't had a proper home media release. 

One of my favorites is there tribute to one of the classic Muppet Show skits:


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#11 Maruten

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 11:14 PM

Obviously the absence of Jim is a factor for most of the post-TMS stuff. Of course, he was still there for The Jim Henson Hour, which was mostly brilliant but crashed and burned largely I think because it was just a bit too innovative for its own good.

Muppets Tonight was spectacular. I think the low volume of Kermit (and "legacy" characters generally perhaps) was a blow against it in the wider audience's eyes, even though it was simultaneously creating a swarm of new characters who were just bloody superb, many of whom remain mainstays to this day - so nice that at least they stuck. I think it was also punished for Not Being The Muppet Show.

The (Television Situation Comedy) Muppets was great I think, it was a surprising take and it clearly didn't work for a lot of people. I think the workplace comedy format was considered old and tired, which is ironic given how well people tolerated The Muppet Show's vaudeville roots.

I'm enjoying Muppets Now, though from what I've seen most of the fandom isn't. I love that recent projects like this and The Muppets are really embracing characters like Scooter and Chef who basically disappeared for decades after Jim and Richard's deaths, or at least went for many years without ever seeing a major role. Uncle Deadly and Miss Piggy is one of those bizarre pairings that just seems to work and so has become an ongoing thing.

Meanwhile, worth noting that TMS had INCREDIBLE, CRAZY success. No Muppets project will top the peak of that show's popularity. So there's that.

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#12 Sabrblade

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 11:34 PM

Meanwhile, worth noting that TMS had INCREDIBLE, CRAZY success. No Muppets project will top the peak of that show's popularity. So there's that.

 

On the other hand, Sesame Street did just celebrate its 50th anniversary last year. ;)


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QUOTE(Bass X0 @ Aug 17 2013, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the concept of being educated and being able to educate is something that more people need more of in their lives.

No, we don't all know everything but we should spread and share that what we do know.

If I'm consistently misspelling a word, I would want and expect people to correct me as should I imagine all decent people who know the value of good literacy.

Its just arrogant laziness to know you're spelling a word incorrectly and not correct yourself or ignore the advice when people do tell you how to spell a word correctly.

#13 Maruten

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 12:22 AM

Oh, sure, Sesame Street is brilliant and beloved and eternal, but it's not the same thing.


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#14 Echowarrior

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 09:06 AM

Scheduling might also have been an issue. Just saying.


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#15 Pocket

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 01:54 PM

Really I would guess its probably because The Muppets are designed to work in a variety show format and that hasn't been a popular television format for awhile now.

I don't buy this argument. Both the original Muppet Show and Muppets Tonight were closer to sketch comedy shows in the vein of Saturday Night Live, and that show is still chugging along and was still a hot property in the late '90s.

 

I think the bigger problem is that the Muppets themselves, as an IP, have reached a point of only appealing to older people who are still nostalgic for them. To anyone else, the idea of a show or movie starring puppets feels... quaint. Even if the Muppets' whole appeal was shaking up the formula by not being quaint in an era where people were already starting to feel that way. The novelty of that schtick only lasted for so long; after that, they banked on making family movies for established fans to watch with their kids, and then those kids grew up and only remembered them as a silly puppet show for kids.

 

At this point, the biggest hurdle is just convincing people to tune in at all.


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#16 mx-01 archon

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 01:57 PM

Tastes change. I adore the Muppets, but at a certain point you have to accept it's just not popular any longer.

Ironically largely the crux of the plot of the 2011 movie that helped launch them into the bigtime again... only for them to fizzle out and die again in short order.



#17 The Predaking

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 02:49 PM

I liked that movie. The music was great and Jim Parson's cameo was perfect. 


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#18 bigbot69

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 03:12 PM

 

Tastes change. I adore the Muppets, but at a certain point you have to accept it's just not popular any longer.

Ironically largely the crux of the plot of the 2011 movie that helped launch them into the bigtime again... only for them to fizzle out and die again in short order.

 

 

Blame Muppets Most Wanted for that drop.

 

 


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#19 ZakuConvoy

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 04:08 PM

Count me in as someone who fondly remembers Muppets Tonight.

 

"Look at those lobsters out there. Aren't they cute? With their little lobster outfits, their little lobster guitars, and their little lobster semiautomatic weapons.

 

....

 

(O_O)"

 

As for why they aren't as successful as they once were...well, can you name a property that's still going strong 40 years later?  This isn't just a problem exclusive to the Muppets.  Looney Tunes, Mickey Mouse, all the old standard-bearers can't seem to really get a BIG success and have to constantly reinvent themselves in order to try (and mostly fail) to stay relevant.  Sure, there are cult favorites that pop up (like the Looney Tunes Show and the new Mickey Mouse shorts), but I don't think anything for any of these properties has been truly, HUGELY successful (...maybe Mickey Mouse Clubhouse).

 

And then there's the state of comedy right now.  I can't help but feel like comedy, while not dead, is on heavy life support.  Seriously, what's the biggest, most successful comedy of the last 10 years?  The Big Bang Theory?  Maybe something like Always Sunny in Philadelphia?  Can you name a comedy movie that was a big box office smash in the last 10 years?  A lot of the Marvel movies have heavy comedy elements, but they're largely action movies, not comedies.  Maybe it's just the segmentation of society, where everyone gets their individual tastes catered to, instead of having to consume what everyone else is given, but I can't help but feel like comedy, as a focus, is dying.

 

And honestly...choosing to end the Muppets Show when he did was probably the biggest mistake of Jim Henson's life.  Yes, from what I understand, the TV executives actually wanted to continue the Muppets Show, but Jim wanted to focus on newer, fresher ideas and didn't want to split his attention, since he was a bit TOO hands on sometimes.  If he hadn't, it might've ended up like Sesame Street or The Simpsons, something that just isn't ALLOWED to go away.  ...Not sure if that would've been a good thing or a bad thing, but it's a possibility.

 

More on that here (this entire miniseries is just great, by the way):

 

And, yeah, like others have said, the things that made them a little daring and a little challenging decades ago...just make them feel quaint now.  Their style of comedy just might be a little outdated.  And trying to change that style threatens to make them feel out of character.  It's a tricky balance.  

 

I think they COULD still be successful again, given the right combination of talent and luck.  The 2011 movie proves that, I think.  I'm just not sure how you sustain that, long-term.


Edited by ZakuConvoy, 03 September 2020 - 04:21 PM.


#20 Maruten

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 07:59 PM

I think The Muppets: The Movie and MMW opened the doors to a new generation of younger fans, but... those new fans were never going to fall in love with The Muppets: The Adult-Skewing Sitcom. So, a sad disconnect there maybe. 


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