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@  Nevermore : (10 August 2020 - 06:48 PM)

Even worse when I can produce those verifiable facts at a later point, and then the other person simply claims the argument was the other way round (as in, I was actually arguing their position and vice versa).

@  Nevermore : (10 August 2020 - 06:47 PM)

I can argue with people about my versus their memory of events when verifiable facts are not readily available, though, and I get really annoyed when I'm capable of presenting a precise, step-by-step summary with multiple key points that can be used for future verification, and the other person just goes "nope, wrong" without going into detail.

@  Nevermore : (10 August 2020 - 06:45 PM)

I forget things, and I misremember things. But when presented with verifiable facts, my reaction is more like "Huh, could have sworn it was like that", not "this reality is not my own".

@  Nevermore : (10 August 2020 - 06:43 PM)

I have an extremely good memory (which I have proven time and again), and even I can be mistaken.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (10 August 2020 - 06:40 PM)

Might be worth pointing out that it only became "Mandela Effect" and not just "I remembered this wrong" when a conspiracy theorist insisted it was proof of alternate timelines.

@  Otaku : (10 August 2020 - 06:29 PM)

Incorrectly remembering Nelson Mandela's fate may be uniquely American... but is it really that strange to get South African political history wrong when you're no where near South Africa?

@  Otaku : (10 August 2020 - 06:29 PM)

I always assumed the Mandela Effect was a "human thing", not an American thing.

@  wonko the sane? : (10 August 2020 - 02:03 PM)

Then there are people who outright manufacture memories for whatever reason.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (10 August 2020 - 01:13 PM)

The human brain is so flaky that it is extremely unlikely that a given person does NOT have any false memories.

@  OverDrive73 : (10 August 2020 - 01:05 PM)

Perhaps it's simple word association the movie Sinbad and then our minds apply the same memories to a man named Sinbad.

@  OverDrive73 : (10 August 2020 - 01:04 PM)

The Mandela Effect is the same as people remembering Sinbad in a movie where he played a genie... Of which he never did.

@  MidnightFox : (10 August 2020 - 09:36 AM)

People that believe Mandela Effect things would rather come up with any number of reasons as to why their version doesn't have any actual evidence(like alternate timelines collapsing into our own) than just admit they remembered something wrong

@  MidnightFox : (10 August 2020 - 09:35 AM)

Sort of. It's more that when presented with a verifiable fact, they double down because it's what they believe instead of changing their minds

@  ▲ndrusi : (10 August 2020 - 09:25 AM)

"I could have sworn that ______."

@  ▲ndrusi : (10 August 2020 - 09:25 AM)

I'm not arguing with either of those two statements, but they're not really connected. Mandela Effect is, to oversimplify, people being widely mistaken about what they think *is* a verifiable fact. Nothing to do with opinions.

@  MidnightFox : (10 August 2020 - 08:52 AM)

Pretty sure the Mandela Effect in general is an American thing. Opinion > Verifiable Facts is sadly a pretty American thing

@  Nevermore : (10 August 2020 - 04:27 AM)

Ask these people how Apartheid ended according to their recollection, and I'm sure they'll draw a blank.

@  Nevermore : (10 August 2020 - 04:25 AM)

You got two black anti-Apartheid activists who were imprisoned by the oppressive regime. One died, the other was Nelson Mandela. It's not a far stretch that Americans who don't know many details about the history of other countries would mix up the two.

@  Nevermore : (10 August 2020 - 04:24 AM)

My own theory is that these people are simply mixing up Nelson Mandela and Steve Biko, another South African anti-Apartheid activist, who did indeed die in police custody in 1977. There was an Oscar-nominated movie about his life starring Denzel Washington that came out in 1987, the same time frame these people claim remembering Mandela dying.

@  Nevermore : (10 August 2020 - 04:17 AM)

I met a few people from South Africa, and they either never heard of the phenomenon at all, or only know of it from the internet. Apparently, it's completely unknown in South Africa, and it might even be entirely limited to the United States.

@  Nevermore : (10 August 2020 - 04:16 AM)

So does anyone remember the "Mandela Effect"? I'm talking specifically about the original case where many people vividly remember Nelson Mandela dying in prison in the 1980s.

@  Tm_Silverclaw : (10 August 2020 - 03:16 AM)

Crisis of Corona.

@  TheMightyMol... : (09 August 2020 - 06:16 PM)

Which crisis crossover are we on now? I lost track.

@  Rycochet : (09 August 2020 - 05:18 PM)

Much of the past decade has been the part of the comic series where less than stellar authors have driven the series into the ground and the editors are getting ready to either do a big multi issue crossover, leading to a reboot.

@  Bass X0 : (09 August 2020 - 02:28 PM)

At this point I've just decided to consider 2020 "not canon."

@  TheMightyMol... : (09 August 2020 - 02:18 PM)

'member Pepperidge Farm?

@  Maximus Ambus : (09 August 2020 - 02:10 PM)

Before the 'member berries there was Pepperidge farm. Pepperidge farm remembers.

@  OverDrive73 : (09 August 2020 - 12:21 PM)

>>>Shameless Plug<<< FYI. posted the last part of Quest for Tires in Allspark Pictures

@  SG Roadbuster : (08 August 2020 - 01:53 PM)

@Nevermore yes.

@  Nevermore : (08 August 2020 - 09:11 AM)

Is $30 a good deal for Subscription Service Breakdown?

@  Trpodeca : (08 August 2020 - 06:24 AM)

Oh dear God no. Twitter has changed it's default layout to the terrible new one. Why waste so much space on the left?

@  Steevy Maximus : (07 August 2020 - 08:28 PM)

@Bass X0, yeah, the Joe comic got REALLY solid in the upper 20s to the Cobra Civil War. It's interesting to see how well the Joe comic has aged relative to the cartoon. Where as I feel the opposite is true of Transformers

@  -LittleAutob... : (07 August 2020 - 03:58 PM)

Its so fun watching past TF Conventions.

@  Bass X0 : (07 August 2020 - 02:20 PM)

I've been reading classic 80s G.I. Joe lately. Its still decent even though I don't have any nostalgia towards it.

@  Sabrblade : (07 August 2020 - 08:50 AM)

Think of it as Adam West Batman instead. ;)

@  wonko the sane? : (07 August 2020 - 07:49 AM)

That sounds more like the flash, or maybe booster gold than batman.

@  Sabrblade : (07 August 2020 - 12:27 AM)

They would get bored fighting each other and instead decide to take an epic cross-country road trip together.

@  RichardT1977 : (06 August 2020 - 08:57 PM)

What would happen if Batman were to fight Squirrel Girl?

@  PlutoniumBoss : (04 August 2020 - 09:03 PM)

Unless you count the Mask vs Lobo special, but that's less a duel and more a duet.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (04 August 2020 - 08:52 PM)

My favorite crossover fight was Thor vs Shazam/Captain Marvel. Early in the fight, Thor discovers that Billy Batson needs lightning to transform, and being a god of lightning he simply denies him that.

@  Sabrblade : (04 August 2020 - 08:46 PM)

Let's see a fight between Death Battle and Super Power Beat Down

@  TheMightyMol... : (04 August 2020 - 06:15 PM)

Which Lobo later claimed was because he was paid to take a dive. Yes, really.

@  TheMightyMol... : (04 August 2020 - 06:15 PM)

And then there's the times it's been decided by a fan vote, which is how we get things like Lobo (who can go toe-to-toe with Superman at full strength) losing to Wolverine.

@  Nevermore : (04 August 2020 - 05:49 PM)

And then there are the "but my favorite characater will totes win because I say so" people.

@  Nevermore : (04 August 2020 - 05:49 PM)

I mean, there are some people who really approach this from a somewhat reasonable standpoint, coming up with a plausible scenario and a setting that creates a fair environment that doesn't favor one character.

@  Nevermore : (04 August 2020 - 05:46 PM)

My favorite stupid "why would they even fight each other" question recently was about three versions of Optimus Prime (G1, Bayverse and Aligned).

@  Nevermore : (04 August 2020 - 05:45 PM)

Batman obviously can beat everyone. Even Galactus. He's Batman. He's so smart, he'll just throw a Batarang and hit the weak spot at Galactus's forehead, knocking him out instantaneously.

@  wonko the sane? : (04 August 2020 - 11:37 AM)

It's almost like all drama is just manufactured pissing contests to keep us all entertained and distracted. :p

@  Tm_Silverclaw : (04 August 2020 - 10:16 AM)

Or they could go White Ranger vs Scorpion route and have both win. ;P

@  ▲ndrusi : (04 August 2020 - 09:35 AM)

Besides, we all know the answer is nearly always "they fight to a standstill and then team up against a common enemy."


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The Divine Theory

Primus Unicron Multiverse Primacron Quintessons Matrix Beast Era G1 Gods

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#1 That One Guy

That One Guy

    MaxCop gone rogue

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 12:14 AM

This is a theory I cooked up awhile ago to help retcon Unicron and Primus's multiversal origins into fitting with the G1 cartoon's origins for Unicron involving Primacron and Primus's origins involving the Quintessons. This theory is written with the belief that the G1 cartoon, Beast Wars, Beast Machines, and all accompanying ancillary media (most prominently the 3H and Universe comic series) are in the same continuous universe. While this is a rather contentious viewpoint for some fans, it is the setting I which nearly all of my Transformers writings are based. Without further ado, I present to you the Divine Theory.



As the universe began and creation simmered after the blinding light of the Big Bang, the laws of the Multiverse took hold and began shaping yet another new reality. As with almost all other universes, the natural balance between good and evil, order and chaos began to shape reality, and with these forces their personified embodimentsPrimus and Unicron. Their consciousnesses existed at first only on the metaphysical astral plane, before creating physical extensions of themselves. Primus, existing across all realities simultaneously, dimensionally landed in this universe as a naturally occurring planet and would go on to become a thriving organic world. Unicron, meanwhile, manipulated the mind of a young scientist named Primacron, one of the first beings in existence. Using Primacron as an instrument for his destruction, Unicron had the impudent organic construct him a body like no other, a sprawling mechanical world, capable of transforming into a body resembling his old divine figure, freeing Unicron from the constraints of a purely metaphysical existence and giving his consciousness form. Drunk on power and eager to begin his malevolent machinations, Unicron failed to notice that Primacron's assistant had become influenced by the will of Primus, who used the being to construct a failsafe device capable of destroying Unicron, using some of Primus's divine power to complete the talisman. Unicron, however, sensed something was amiss in the astral plane, and realized Primus held sway over the assistant. Enraged, the Chaos Bringer sought to eliminate Primacron, his assistant, and the failsafe, though unbeknownst to him, Primacron survived and the talisman was sent hurtling into the void, where it would eventually return to Primus from across the universe. The trauma of having been manipulated by a dark god and facing a near death experience drove Primacron mad, leading to him eventually constructing other diabolical creations, such as the energy draining beast Tornedron (and, if the rumors are true, even the Quintessons, though this may be mere myth).

As time wore on, intelligent life in the universe began to develop and spread. One such group of beings were the Quintessons, a collection of semi-robotic subspecies completely dedicated to manipulation and greed. Unicron, sensing that these beings could be of use to him, made the Quintessons his servants and ordered them to locate the body of Primus so that he may annihilate him. After a time, the Quintessons did indeed find Primus's physical form, a lush organic world of great beauty and serenity. The Quintessons, however, decided that instead of informing their dark master of Primus's whereabouts, they would use the creator god for their own purposes. To that end, the greedy merchants terraformed the organic paradise into a cold, metallic factory world that they dubbed Cybertron. At the heart of this new world, they came across the physical form of Primus's consciousness, the gateway to the Allspark and the astral plane: Vector Sigma. Upon discovering the sentient core of Cybertron, the Quintessons sought to utilize the creative powers of Primus for their own means, and constructed many devices such as the Plasma Energy Chamber and the Oracle to control and isolate Primus, both of which had limited success in the long run. For the time, however, the Quintessons could maintain a fragile control over Vector Sigma by using the Oracle shell program to disconnect Primus from his creations, and thus went about creating their own forms of life, the first of which being the monstrous Trans-Organics. Frighteningly powerful, the abominations were a combination of the natural organic creatures of Cybertron with Quintesson cybernetic technology, resulting in a race of patchwork cyborgs capable of wiping out entire civilizations if left unchecked. These creatures, incapable of being controlled or destroyed, were sealed deep beneath Cybertron's surface and abandoned. The next attempts at creating life by the Quintessons were purely mechanical in nature, with the hope that machines would prove more manageable than the rebellious beasts of old. Their guesses proved correct, and, with the power of the Oracle and Plasma Energy Chamber, the Quintessons created multiple lines of robotic life forms that would become known as the Transformers. With Primus's true consciousness being suppressed by the Oracle, the slave robots were unable to develop true sentience for many eons.

The Quintessons, finally reaching their initial goals, went about selling their mechanical creations to other species, with the main product lines being those of military hardware and domestic robots. At the behest of some buyers who demanded certain "qualities" in their products, both classes of machines were given artificial gender, a factor that continues well into the modern day for Transformer society. At some unknown point in time, however, the ancient talisman Primacron had created landed on Cybertron and fell into the hands of the enslaved robots. This artifact, an extension of Primus and his power, began to instill the robots with life, evolving their artificial intelligences into true sentience. As a result, the talisman became revered by the machines, and was traditionally given to the appointed leader of the slaves, a process that continued for millennia. Now capable of thinking and feeling for themselves, the slaves began to rebel against their Quintesson masters, putting into motion events that would shape the history of the universe, nay, the Multiverse, forever.

Over eleven million years later in the year 2005 CE, Unicron finally located the body of Primus, Cybertron, and stood on the brink of victory against his arch enemy. The only thing standing in his way were Primus's children, the Transformers, who had been in the midst of an age old civil war between the military and domestic branches of their species. The ancient talisman of Primacron, now known as the Matrix of Leadership, was passed down from the leader of the Autobots, the faction of domestic robots, into the hands of a young Autobot named Hot Rod, who had dueled one of Unicron's minions, Galvatron, in the depths of the Chaos Bringer himself. Opening the Matrix and finally activating it's true purpose, and full force of Primus's powers were released within Unicron's physical form, tearing him apart and leaving the dark god once again confined to the astral plane and the severed head of his old body, the only part that survived. Centuries later into the future and the war between the two began once more. In the time before then, Primus helped convert Cybertron into a tranquil balance of organic and mechanical life, reformatting the entire world and it's people into technorganics, and had also played a role in repelling a Quintesson invasion of the newly reformatted world (as well as finally breaking free of the Oracle shell programming, regaining direct contact with his creations).

Unicron, meanwhile, had been abducting forces from across the Multiverse to serve as his minions against the lord of light, and had slowly gone about reforming his old body with the energy of his victim's sparks. Finally, a year after Primus's full return and Unicron's rise to power, the Children of Primus and the Minions of Unicron began the Universe War, a conflict that spanned the entire Multiverse and ravaged multiple realities, engulfing dimensions in ceaseless combat that rivaled the intensity of the greatest Cybertronian wars. Eventually, however, after long years of warfare and countless trillions lost, the Children prevailed and Unicron was defeated, with the Chaos Bringer and his armies vanishing due to the overwhelming power of the Unicron Singularity, a collection of black holes created by the destruction of Unicron's presence in certain universes. It is theorized that after losing too many dimensions to the Children of Primus, the Unicron Singularities all converges across the Multiverse and became too powerful for the Chaos Bringer to overcome, removing him from existence in many realities and making his consciousness on the astral plane dormant...for a time.

Regardless of the details, Unicron was defeated and the Children were left victorious in their war, saving the Multiverse from Unicron's wrath. Furthermore, the multiversal event known as the Shrouding strengthened the boundaries between universes, severing the multiversal composite consciousnesses shared by every Unicron and Primus. With the Unicron of this reality gone and with little chance of his return, it appears that the dark god may have, at least in this universe, finally been vanquished for good.

*Note: All versions of Primus and Unicron before the Shroud were connected, sharing the same gestalt consciousness. This was known as being a multiversal singularity. These singularities existed because the Multiverse operates on a balanced system of good and evil, order and chaos. A Unicron and Primus were needed in most every universe to keep the balance, although exceptions did and still do exist. Now that all universes are free to have their own gods and distinct versions of Primus and Unicron, however, it can be theorized that the deities no longer hold nearly as much cosmic significance, and individual universes can function fine without one of the two (although an unchecked Unicron isn't usually a good thing in general for a reality).

Edited by That One Guy, 31 May 2019 - 12:40 AM.