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@  MEDdMI : (13 November 2018 - 11:49 AM)

WITCHCRAFT!

@  wonko the sane? : (13 November 2018 - 11:40 AM)

Mwahahaha! I am writing this WIRELESSLY from my desktop!

@  unluckiness : (13 November 2018 - 10:28 AM)

yes.

@  Pennpenn : (13 November 2018 - 07:48 AM)

Is that nightmare fuel for wanking or nightmare fuel that is- actually you know what never mind.

@  TheMightyMol... : (13 November 2018 - 05:07 AM)

This is the Internet. Everything produces wanking nightmare fuel.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (13 November 2018 - 01:52 AM)

Yet both have produced wanking nightmare fuel. (Rule 34 is a harsh mistress)

@  fourteenwings : (12 November 2018 - 11:41 PM)

I don't know if "magic animals" and "mecha" abide by the same design principals.

@  Tm_Silverclaw : (12 November 2018 - 09:20 PM)

PS4 controllers are crap. x.x;

@  Paladin : (12 November 2018 - 08:16 PM)

it took me way too long to realize that didn't actually say "wanking nightmare fuel."

@  NotVeryKnightly : (12 November 2018 - 08:14 PM)

I'm quite sure that directors don't make the designs because that would be ludicrous amount of work for a single person.

@  Noideaforaname : (12 November 2018 - 05:35 PM)

I guess "walking nightmare fuel" is an improvement...

@  Bass X0 : (12 November 2018 - 04:12 PM)

It’s something when the new Pokemon movie is completely accurate to the original source character designs than the Transformers movies. Michael Bay would have created hyper stylised redesigns of Pokemon and many completely new designs if he was doing it.

@  Maximus Ambus : (12 November 2018 - 01:54 PM)

RIP Stan Lee.

@  Tm_Silverclaw : (12 November 2018 - 04:25 AM)

Ehh.. Except for a couple of people, the video game section isn't that bad.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (11 November 2018 - 08:27 PM)

It feels like this hasn't been said enough: anybody who cares what people at TFW does would surely just check there themselves.

@  Gryllid : (11 November 2018 - 06:50 PM)

And with the Seinfeld/Cyberverse names, the genders matched up, and some of them seem fitting enough ("Peterman" for a leader figure prone to dramatic pronouncements; "Puddy" for a big, strong, gruff guy, etc.)

@  Gryllid : (11 November 2018 - 06:46 PM)

Well, the codenames aren't completely random. Shatter and Dropkick were "Red Light" and "Blue Light", weren't they? Referencing their colors.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (11 November 2018 - 09:05 AM)

I'm sure the Hasbro logistics guy in charge of assigning the code names would be amused too, if he knew what TFW2005 was.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (11 November 2018 - 01:30 AM)

Yup. TFW2005.

@  Nevermore : (10 November 2018 - 02:57 PM)

Even though we have seen time and again that those names are just randomly applied names from whatever "theme" Hasbro has chosen for the respective line, with no intentional relation between code name and character.

@  Nevermore : (10 November 2018 - 02:57 PM)

I love how folks on TFW2005 still assume the code names for toys from new toylines are mystery games Hasbro has created for the fans, and thus are trying to interpret a meaning into those names to guess the character.

@  Tm_Silverclaw : (09 November 2018 - 07:56 PM)

I haven't watched many eps yet... Mainly cause I've gotten where I just wait till seasons end and watch the whole thing.

@  RichardT1977 : (09 November 2018 - 07:23 PM)

I presume he's going to feature heavily in episode 15

@  RichardT1977 : (09 November 2018 - 07:20 PM)

And like I said in one of the discussion threads, his voice reminds me of the English dub of Alexander Armstrong from Fullmetal Alchemist

@  Tm_Silverclaw : (09 November 2018 - 07:20 PM)

Ahh, I ment shown up as a Main character yet, but I wasn't specific. :D

@  RichardT1977 : (09 November 2018 - 07:19 PM)

He showed up in "Maccadam's", and has at least been heard in a few other prior episodes.

@  abates : (09 November 2018 - 07:06 PM)

Yeah, he's shown up a couple of times.

@  Tm_Silverclaw : (09 November 2018 - 07:01 PM)

I ment in the show.

@  Nevermore : (09 November 2018 - 06:38 PM)

Which one?

@  Tm_Silverclaw : (09 November 2018 - 05:31 PM)

Has Cyberverse Grim even showed up yet?

@  Paladin : (09 November 2018 - 05:26 PM)

now that it's out in the open, can I just say NuRID Grimlock is the most interesting version of the character in TWENTY YEARS?

@  Foffy : (09 November 2018 - 05:08 PM)

grimlock eats sloppily at olive garden (ASMR)

@  abates : (09 November 2018 - 05:07 PM)

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

@  abates : (09 November 2018 - 05:07 PM)

It could have fit perfectly in Robots in Disguise too. Just have Grimlock waving a pool noodle around and give the line to Drift.

@  abates : (09 November 2018 - 05:07 PM)

Underquoted Transformers: The Movie quotes: "Grimlock, get your noodle out of my face."

@  RichardT1977 : (09 November 2018 - 04:58 PM)

Yeah, IIRC Wilbur was a spring pig.

@  Tm_Silverclaw : (09 November 2018 - 01:48 PM)

I read that as "First sow of the season" and I was about to say that I wasn't aware pigs were typically born in the winter.

@  Paladin : (09 November 2018 - 08:59 AM)

ugh. first snow of the season...

@  wonko the sane? : (09 November 2018 - 08:22 AM)

Shield agent, that's just nuts...

@  Pennpenn : (09 November 2018 - 03:56 AM)

Though there are rumours he's secretly a Pine.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (09 November 2018 - 01:15 AM)

Idea: in a universe wherein plant alt-modes are common, Maccadam transforms into a macadamia tree.

@  Waspinator : (08 November 2018 - 08:51 PM)

That apparently gets you the help you want. https://www.schlockm....com/2010-04-14

@  wonko the sane? : (08 November 2018 - 07:01 PM)

Eh, just conference call it to the suicide hotline AI.

@  Maximus Ambus : (08 November 2018 - 05:00 PM)

Soon we'll have AI making the calls.

@  TheMightyMol... : (08 November 2018 - 04:04 PM)

Sure, but you can't try to counter-troll them and see if you can annoy them into giving up first.

@  wonko the sane? : (08 November 2018 - 03:29 PM)

Robots are cheaper, and don't have mental break downs when people swear at them. Considering how many call centers these days are scams: it's not hard to see why folks don't want to work in them.

@  TheMightyMol... : (08 November 2018 - 03:25 PM)

I miss getting real people for spam calls instead of bots. The bots are no fun.

@  wonko the sane? : (08 November 2018 - 03:24 PM)

I like the robot from "the visa mastercard rewards center". It feels so cathartic to slam the phone on it.

@  TM2-Megatron : (08 November 2018 - 02:57 PM)

A lot of our phone scams up here come from India, pretending to be Revenue Canada. I think they mostly target recent immigrants who aren't familiar with the system, but they've gotten lots of clueless seniors, too.

@  TheMightyMol... : (08 November 2018 - 02:52 PM)

I like the ones that fake the caller ID so it looks like your own number is calling you.


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Beast Wars: Uprising General Discussion


326 replies to this topic

#321 LordGigaIce

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 06:58 PM

"There are very real historical reasons to why Jews were essentially forced into those professions..."

...uhhh... yeah. I know. THAT'S the comparison. There are real historic reasons in-universe why Cyberdroids are in the professions they are in.

My point is that in doing such a 1:1 comparison you're essentially furthering the "oh hey, this group in this fictional universe is prevalent in trading and commerce because they're robot space Jews."

There's so much more to Jewish identity and culture than the occupations our ancestors were railroaded into centuries ago. There are so many other places you could have gone to if you wanted an analogue for historical Jewish populations than "good at commerce." It's low hanging fruit, and it relies on referencing negative stereotypes.

 

You also avoided this point I raised...

 

The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

When you make it a point to compare your Jewish analogue Transformers with a subrace of Transformers that, in your own words, "can't Transform into anything useful" you're dealing with an unfortunate set of implications. Whether they were intentional or not.

 

Also this is a vague idea that's not addressed in-universe. If we were going to explore this, we'd do our homework and be careful to be respectful.

You put it out there, and it's echoed on the Wiki. Meaning people who weren't even aware of the BWU fiction may come across and see it. I think it's a valid target for criticism.


Edited by LordGigaIce, 08 August 2018 - 06:59 PM.


#322 Broadside

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:47 PM

Yyyyeah, Jim, I dunno that this one is worth fighting to defend, especially if you yourself admit that it's a somewhat shallow comparison.

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#323 Jim S

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 08:34 PM

My point is that in doing such a 1:1 comparison you're essentially furthering the "oh hey, this group in this fictional universe is prevalent in trading and commerce because they're robot space Jews."

 

There's so much more to Jewish identity and culture than the occupations our ancestors were railroaded into centuries ago. There are so many other places you could have gone to if you wanted an analogue for historical Jewish populations than "good at commerce." It's low hanging fruit, and it relies on referencing negative stereotypes.

 

But I don't see it as a 1:1 comparison. At all. I see one or two specific aspects of Cyberdroids mirroring one or two specific aspects of the Jewish historical experience. It's not like I'm trying to do:

 

jews in space.jpg

 

FWIW, Cyberdroids and their role in society evolved naturally over the course of the 12 stories. The specific comparison occurred much later, after most (if not all?) of the stories were written.. They were NOT created as a way to explore a robot space analogy to the Jewish people. Rather, after their creation it seems like there were a few parallels. I didn't, and don't, see those parallels as negative. I *DO* see them as something I might want to explore in the future. 

 

 

You also avoided this point I raised...

 

When you make it a point to compare your Jewish analogue Transformers with a subrace of Transformers that, in your own words, "can't Transform into anything useful" you're dealing with an unfortunate set of implications. Whether they were intentional or not.

 

 

See, I *DON'T see them as "my Jewish analogue Transformers". At all. And further, this aspect doesn't feel relevant to what made me draw the comparison in the first place. If anything, their transformation is more analogous to, say, the US Vietnam Veterans returning home. They made sacrifices and picked up a very specific set of skills, skills that were CRITICALLY valuable during the war. But those skills didn't translate to civilian life, and the population didn't value the sacrifice because of other complicated factors. What was once a huge asset is now a liability. That's a story I could write. (Hopefully in a way that's respectful to veterans.)

 

 

 

You put it out there, and it's echoed on the Wiki. Meaning people who weren't even aware of the BWU fiction may come across and see it. I think it's a valid target for criticism.

 

Hey, criticize away, but I don't see the criticism as especially valid or insightful. 

 

At its core, BWU is about about how people and groups get marginalized. In real life discrimination is often along lines like religion, ethnicity, language. For Transformers those specific things don't apply but other things to do. What they transform into, what their sizes are, what their programming is. It's comfortably removed from the human experience, and that lets us explore difficult subjects respectfully and perhaps with a modicum of dispassion that would be impossible when discussing the real-life rough analogs.

 

So, I guess, I'm sorry if the comparison offended you. I don't really think it's disrespectful in any way, but should I get the opportunity to delve further, being cognizant of real-life groups and their struggles, and being respectful of said struggles, is something that I'll continue to do. 

 
 

 

 

Yyyyeah, Jim, I dunno that this one is worth fighting to defend, especially if you yourself admit that it's a somewhat shallow comparison.

 

be whatever I wanna do.png



#324 LordGigaIce

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 09:16 PM

You also avoided this point I raised...

 

When you make it a point to compare your Jewish analogue Transformers with a subrace of Transformers that, in your own words, "can't Transform into anything useful" you're dealing with an unfortunate set of implications. Whether they were intentional or not.

 

 

See, I *DON'T see them as "my Jewish analogue Transformers". At all. And further, this aspect doesn't feel relevant to what made me draw the comparison in the first place. If anything, their transformation is more analogous to, say, the US Vietnam Veterans returning home. They made sacrifices and picked up a very specific set of skills, skills that were CRITICALLY valuable during the war. But those skills didn't translate to civilian life, and the population didn't value the sacrifice because of other complicated factors. What was once a huge asset is now a liability. That's a story I could write. (Hopefully in a way that's respectful to veterans.)

You said, and this is direct quote...

 

 

The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

There's no line break. Nothing to indicate the start of a new train of thought. Your post where you explored this line of thought goes right from "they're a lot like the Jewish" to "they don't Transform into anything useful."
It's possible that you made a mistake and didn't intend those two sentiments to be as closely tied as they appear to be in the text, but that is how it's presented. So I don't feel like I'm particularly reaching when I say that, as a Jewish person, you saying the Transformers that have parallels to Jews "didn't transform into anything useful" took me by surprise.

 

 

So, I guess, I'm sorry if the comparison offended you.

...and that's the problem. I suppose I would be offended that you didn't find my comparison "valid" or "insightful," but given that you actually played the "I'm sorry if you were offended" card? Nah, that stuff doesn't bother me, really.

 

See, here's how I see this. You made a post about the Cyberdroids. You mentioned how they've been pushed into commerce and trade, and this makes them like historical Jewish populations. And then, without anything to indicate you were starting a new line of thought, said "they don't transform into anything useful."
 

Now you could have said "the not anything useful thing was unrelated to the parallels I saw with Jews, I'm sorry if I misrepresented what I was trying to say." Or you could have said "I didn't mean it like that, but I can see how, looking back, it doesn't look great. Sorry and here's what I meant."

 

But no. You went with the "I'm sorry you were offended" spiel, which is perhaps one of the most polite ways to say "hug you" there is. And this is why your dismissal of my criticism doesn't feel particularly forceful.

You come off as a guy who defaulted to IT'S YOUR FAULT IF YOU'RE MAD the moment someone mentioned something you may have said could be problematic.

And assuming you're a decent guy who means what he says when you say...

 

 

Rather, after their creation it seems like there were a few parallels. I didn't, and don't, see those parallels as negative.

...it just comes off as you being hyper-defensive over a poorly worded quote that didn't properly reflect what you were trying to say.

 

Because yeah. As a Jewish person? Going "these guys are like Jews, and also they're not useful" is hugging insulting. That's what's on the page, man. And if you didn't intend for those thoughts to be related? You should, at the very least, have the common decency to go "oh crap, that doesn't look great, ok here's what I meant."

It's a better way of dealing with things then providing the most patronizing non-apology you could think of. 

 

 

But I don't see it as a 1:1 comparison. At all. I see one or two specific aspects of Cyberdroids mirroring one or two specific aspects of the Jewish historical experience.

Going off of the Wiki...

Railroaded into business and commerce.

Discriminated because of that.

Refugees driven out of their homeland.

And the target of a mass extermination.

Eeep. That's more than one or two.

 

Regardless. If you ever want to do a story that touched on the "one or two specific aspects of Cyberdroids mirroring one or two specific aspects of the Jewish historical experience" I sincerely hope you approach the story with a degree of respect and understanding.


Edited by LordGigaIce, 08 August 2018 - 09:17 PM.


#325 Jim S

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 11:19 PM

You said, and this is direct quote...

 

The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

There's no line break. Nothing to indicate the start of a new train of thought. Your post where you explored this line of thought goes right from "they're a lot like the Jewish" to "they don't Transform into anything useful."
It's possible that you made a mistake and didn't intend those two sentiments to be as closely tied as they appear to be in the text, but that is how it's presented. So I don't feel like I'm particularly reaching when I say that, as a Jewish person, you saying the Transformers that have parallels to Jews "didn't transform into anything useful" took me by surprise.

 

I mean, sure, I said that. But in the context of:

 

(As an aside, I was just saying the other day that, in Builder society, Cyberdroids occupy a strange and uncomfortable niche. They're technically and LEGALLY Builders, which is really important in terms of the ability to own businesses, which Maximals and Predacons can't easily do. But socially they're viewed as outsiders. Maximals and Predacons, who make up the bulk of active society, don't count them as members. But Builders, who hold most of the wealth and political power, don't feel like they belong either. Micromasters are already looked down on for deigning to remain mobile, and they're basically the Builder military class. Cyberdroids, who have mostly turned to commerce, are distrusted on all sides. The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

 

I thought it was pretty clear from context I was sharing general facts about Cyberdroids. Fact 1, fact 1, fact 3, fact 4, fact 5, fact 6, fact 7 (aside relating fact 7 to real life), fact 8. I didn't realize until this, your third post, that it was this very juxtaposition that was upsetting you. If you notice, I didn't deign to even address the criticism in my first reply, because I thought it was blatantly and obviously irrelevant. When pressed, I explained WHY I didn't think that part of the fairly long paragraph was relevant, with another example and with some humor. It's only now that I'm getting that this juxtaposition bothered you. 

 

For what it's worth, I didn't read the juxtaposition as significant in any way. Obviously you did. That wasn't my intent. 

 

 

So, I guess, I'm sorry if the comparison offended you.

...and that's the problem. I suppose I would be offended that you didn't find my comparison "valid" or "insightful," but given that you actually played the "I'm sorry if you were offended" card? Nah, that stuff doesn't bother me, really.

 

See, here's how I see this. You made a post about the Cyberdroids. You mentioned how they've been pushed into commerce and trade, and this makes them like historical Jewish populations. And then, without anything to indicate you were starting a new line of thought, said "they don't transform into anything useful."
 

Now you could have said "the not anything useful thing was unrelated to the parallels I saw with Jews, I'm sorry if I misrepresented what I was trying to say." Or you could have said "I didn't mean it like that, but I can see how, looking back, it doesn't look great. Sorry and here's what I meant."

 

But no. You went with the "I'm sorry you were offended" spiel, which is perhaps one of the most polite ways to say "hug you" there is. And this is why your dismissal of my criticism doesn't feel particularly forceful.

You come off as a guy who defaulted to IT'S YOUR FAULT IF YOU'RE MAD the moment someone mentioned something you may have said could be problematic.

 

I think I *DID* say that the not useful thing was unrelated to the parallels!

 

 And further, this aspect doesn't feel relevant to what made me draw the comparison in the first place. If anything, their transformation is more analogous to, say, the US Vietnam Veterans returning home. They made sacrifices and picked up a very specific set of skills, skills that were CRITICALLY valuable during the war. But those skills didn't translate to civilian life, and the population didn't value the sacrifice because of other complicated factors. What was once a huge asset is now a liability. That's a story I could write. (Hopefully in a way that's respectful to veterans.)

 

 

No, I genuinely didn't see any way in which my comparison was problematic. Now that you've explained that it's the juxtaposition of my aside with fact 8, I guess I can kind of see it. 

 

But I don't think I'm playing any cards here. I don't like that you're offended. But upon review, I still don't see anything problematic in my behavior. Perhaps I'd put in a couple of parenthesis, or list the fact of the (currently) useless alt modes at a different point in the paragraph. 

 

And assuming you're a decent guy who means what he says when you say...

 

Rather, after their creation it seems like there were a few parallels. I didn't, and don't, see those parallels as negative.

...it just comes off as you being hyper-defensive over a poorly worded quote that didn't properly reflect what you were trying to say.

 

Defensive? That wasn't what I was going for. (I was going for dismissive.) And again, until your third post, I really wasn't understanding the root of your criticism. 

 

 

Because yeah. As a Jewish person? Going "these guys are like Jews, and also they're not useful" is hugging insulting. That's what's on the page, man. And if you didn't intend for those thoughts to be related? You should, at the very least, have the common decency to go "oh crap, that doesn't look great, ok here's what I meant."

It's a better way of dealing with things then providing the most patronizing non-apology you could think of. 

 

Well, FWIW, the idea that THAT was what I was trying to say was SO far removed from my intention, and my cold read on the quote 2 years later, that I didn't even realize that that's what you were getting at until just now. 

 

Again, not what I was going for. I meant it as one fact in a laundry list of many. A fact that draws closer parallels to a different marginalized group.

 

So... I think I'm done here. You're obviously taking this way more personally than I am. I genuinely am sorry if you're offended. I'm genuinely not sorry about what I wrote, and I think it's clear from context that I wasn't intending it the way you took it. I hope it's 100% clear now that that's now how I meant it. 

 

As ever, you're welcome to love, hate, like, dislike, praise, or trash my stuff, and I suppose that includes my message board posts. 

 

 

PS: I was trying to lighten up the tone with some memes. Guess it didn't work.

 

PPS: Dayum! The wiki definitely saw more parallels than I did! I'm a better writer than I thought!

 

PPPS:

if-i-just-keep-looking-cute-theyll-surely-blame-the-dog-cute-cat-memes.jpg

 


Edited by Jim S, 08 August 2018 - 11:24 PM.


#326 Sabrblade

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 12:52 AM

Looking at Jim's original quote in question, his use of the words "also" and "added" strike me as referring to a new separate point made after he finished the preceding point about the Jewish comparison.


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QUOTE(Bass X0 @ Aug 17 2013, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the concept of being educated and being able to educate is something that more people need more of in their lives.

No, we don't all know everything but we should spread and share that what we do know.

If I'm consistently misspelling a word, I would want and expect people to correct me as should I imagine all decent people who know the value of good literacy.

Its just arrogant laziness to know you're spelling a word incorrectly and not correct yourself or ignore the advice when people do tell you how to spell a word correctly.

#327 SHIELD Agent 47

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Posted 30 August 2018 - 05:05 PM

Wow, The Wadapan asked Josh Burcham if he could provide clean copes of the "Intersectionality" covers, and here they are!

 

http://dcjoshart.tum...st/177563193040

 

tumblr_peajtbHY6L1sdb30fo1_1280.jpg


遊び終わ。- ブレラ・スターン少佐西暦2059年

 

Visit the Transformers Wiki and the IDW Hasbro Wiki!

 

 




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