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@  Nevermore : (26 May 2019 - 04:06 PM)

Also, the rising stars are the Greens, especially in Germany.

@  Nevermore : (26 May 2019 - 04:06 PM)

Also, a surprising number of voters showed up to the polls, all across the EU. Which is a good sign.

@  Nevermore : (26 May 2019 - 04:05 PM)

Soooo. Another election day is over. Less stressful than the last one, at least.

@  Nevermore : (25 May 2019 - 05:09 PM)

Oooookay, Babylon Berlin. That's gotta be Plot Convenient News Urgent Edition or something.

@  wonko the sane? : (25 May 2019 - 12:03 PM)

I had no idea the beeb was renting out the dr.who writting staff to hollywood.

@  TM2-Megatron : (25 May 2019 - 11:50 AM)

A poodle, some clouds, and a giant drop of water

@  TheMightyMol... : (25 May 2019 - 05:53 AM)

Was that the one where he fights gamma mutant poodles?

@  unluckiness : (25 May 2019 - 03:14 AM)

The CG in that movie was fantastic. Shame Donkey and Fiona were written out of the movie though.

@  TM2-Megatron : (25 May 2019 - 01:20 AM)

Don't worry, though. Ang Lee's Hulk has made it, so if physical media goes this year we can all die happy

@  TM2-Megatron : (25 May 2019 - 01:12 AM)

It's not on 4K yet. Sure would be nice, though

@  Pennpenn : (25 May 2019 - 12:56 AM)

Probably, when I remember to.

@  Telly : (24 May 2019 - 11:11 PM)

you should buy it on bluray or 4k

@  Pennpenn : (24 May 2019 - 09:56 PM)

It's still not up on netflix. Bah!

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (24 May 2019 - 03:26 PM)

We named the dog "Indiana".

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (24 May 2019 - 03:25 PM)

Happy 30 years to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade!

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 May 2019 - 01:35 PM)

Truly they are the compleat package.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (24 May 2019 - 01:24 PM)

Made from the metallized ashes of their previous enemies.

@  MEDdMI : (24 May 2019 - 07:40 AM)

They fight you with sparkles.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 May 2019 - 03:40 AM)

Phyrexians are the bishie-est.

@  unluckiness : (24 May 2019 - 12:29 AM)

That's why they always wear long sleeved shirts and long pants

@  fourteenwings : (23 May 2019 - 11:36 PM)

Everybody knows the most bishie thing about any bishie is his exposed sinew.

@  MEDdMI : (23 May 2019 - 10:04 PM)

*looks up the humanoid slivers* ...really? People were calling those bishies?

@  TheMightyMol... : (23 May 2019 - 12:45 PM)

Have they made a sliver planeswalker yet?

@  RichardT1977 : (23 May 2019 - 10:29 AM)

"DECOMPOSE!"

@  Paladin : (23 May 2019 - 06:29 AM)

will they next evolve into Inhumanoids?

@  Ashley : (23 May 2019 - 02:42 AM)

the original slivers were spikey monsters. then the evolved into humanoids. now they're back to spikey bug monsters.

@  MEDdMI : (22 May 2019 - 10:42 PM)

Wait. Slivers were bishies???

@  unluckiness : (22 May 2019 - 10:40 PM)

They haven't necessarily looped yet. It's possible they're stuck in "yaoi anatomy"

@  Ashley : (22 May 2019 - 10:35 PM)

I think Slivers in MTG have crossed the bishonen line and looped back around to monstrous

@  wonko the sane? : (22 May 2019 - 09:48 PM)

Maxi, provigo, loblaws.

@  RichardT1977 : (22 May 2019 - 09:42 PM)

Which store brand is it?

@  wonko the sane? : (22 May 2019 - 05:52 PM)

I need to buy more "no name" foods. This pizza is freaking awesome.

@  Bass X0 : (20 May 2019 - 11:16 AM)

SEND THE BOOKS!!

@  Cybersnark : (20 May 2019 - 08:52 AM)

So, now that Game of Thrones is over, when can we get back to The Dragon Prince?

@  unluckiness : (20 May 2019 - 12:19 AM)

Like, half of them nowadays are montages of tweet screencaps from the writer's inbox

@  unluckiness : (20 May 2019 - 12:18 AM)

lol you expected integrity from internet news

@  fourteenwings : (19 May 2019 - 11:33 PM)

I'm mostly confused how news sites went from "Analysing all the amazingness of Game of Thrones" to "Fans sure don't like this season!", like... way to prioritize clicks over a solid editorial opinion

@  fourteenwings : (19 May 2019 - 11:30 PM)

[and there's a recurring setting of a "derelict industrial site"] is this like the Toei Quarry?

@  MEDdMI : (19 May 2019 - 11:17 PM)

@Foffy and then that giant lasagna just tipped over and killed everyone, to be later known as the infamous Bad Monday event.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (19 May 2019 - 10:59 PM)

Ahahaha!!! Go read the reactions for yourself. To say anything more here risks spoiling the finale for subscribing Allsparkers, the quality of this season notwithstanding.

@  Foffy : (19 May 2019 - 10:59 PM)

pretty wild how heathcliff was in the game of thrones finale, i was not expecting that crossover

@  TM2-Megatron : (19 May 2019 - 10:48 PM)

were they still super pissed?

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (19 May 2019 - 10:48 PM)

Well, as someone who is not into Game of Thrones, it sure was entertaining to open up social media this evening to unexpectedly see headlines about fan reactions to the finale. Lmao.

@  Nevermore : (19 May 2019 - 06:12 PM)

But it's also a SUPER-well known location in my region, so these extensive exterior shots without any post production alterations completely ruin the illusion for me.

@  Nevermore : (19 May 2019 - 06:11 PM)

I mean, I get why they did it: It's an existing location that fits the purpose, it's open for the public, and they had to shoot some scenes in my home state anyway to due a subsidizing deal.

@  Nevermore : (19 May 2019 - 06:09 PM)

Needless to say, it's not in Berlin, and even what's seen onscreen is waaaaay too modern for something that's supposed to exist in 1929 (even moreso as a derelict site in 1929). The structures seen haven't even been built until the 1960s!

@  Nevermore : (19 May 2019 - 06:07 PM)

I'm currently in the process of watching season 2 of Babylon Berlin, and there's a recurring setting of a "derelict industrial site" or whatever it's supposed to be on the show, and I easily recognize it as a place only a few minutes from where I live (it's actually a former ironworks site that's been turned into a public park).

@  Xellos : (19 May 2019 - 05:52 PM)

Ever since I went to Japan last year, I have friend who dread watching anime with me due to that...

@  Xellos : (19 May 2019 - 05:51 PM)

Not hugely, but I am the type to notice places once I have been there and say "Hey, I've been there!"

@  wonko the sane? : (19 May 2019 - 05:50 PM)

Half of new york city (on tape.) is actually montreal.


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Beast Wars: Uprising General Discussion


327 replies to this topic

#321 LordGigaIce

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 06:58 PM

"There are very real historical reasons to why Jews were essentially forced into those professions..."

...uhhh... yeah. I know. THAT'S the comparison. There are real historic reasons in-universe why Cyberdroids are in the professions they are in.

My point is that in doing such a 1:1 comparison you're essentially furthering the "oh hey, this group in this fictional universe is prevalent in trading and commerce because they're robot space Jews."

There's so much more to Jewish identity and culture than the occupations our ancestors were railroaded into centuries ago. There are so many other places you could have gone to if you wanted an analogue for historical Jewish populations than "good at commerce." It's low hanging fruit, and it relies on referencing negative stereotypes.

 

You also avoided this point I raised...

 

The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

When you make it a point to compare your Jewish analogue Transformers with a subrace of Transformers that, in your own words, "can't Transform into anything useful" you're dealing with an unfortunate set of implications. Whether they were intentional or not.

 

Also this is a vague idea that's not addressed in-universe. If we were going to explore this, we'd do our homework and be careful to be respectful.

You put it out there, and it's echoed on the Wiki. Meaning people who weren't even aware of the BWU fiction may come across and see it. I think it's a valid target for criticism.


Edited by LordGigaIce, 08 August 2018 - 06:59 PM.


#322 Broadside

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:47 PM

Yyyyeah, Jim, I dunno that this one is worth fighting to defend, especially if you yourself admit that it's a somewhat shallow comparison.

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#323 Jim S

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 08:34 PM

My point is that in doing such a 1:1 comparison you're essentially furthering the "oh hey, this group in this fictional universe is prevalent in trading and commerce because they're robot space Jews."

 

There's so much more to Jewish identity and culture than the occupations our ancestors were railroaded into centuries ago. There are so many other places you could have gone to if you wanted an analogue for historical Jewish populations than "good at commerce." It's low hanging fruit, and it relies on referencing negative stereotypes.

 

But I don't see it as a 1:1 comparison. At all. I see one or two specific aspects of Cyberdroids mirroring one or two specific aspects of the Jewish historical experience. It's not like I'm trying to do:

 

jews in space.jpg

 

FWIW, Cyberdroids and their role in society evolved naturally over the course of the 12 stories. The specific comparison occurred much later, after most (if not all?) of the stories were written.. They were NOT created as a way to explore a robot space analogy to the Jewish people. Rather, after their creation it seems like there were a few parallels. I didn't, and don't, see those parallels as negative. I *DO* see them as something I might want to explore in the future. 

 

 

You also avoided this point I raised...

 

When you make it a point to compare your Jewish analogue Transformers with a subrace of Transformers that, in your own words, "can't Transform into anything useful" you're dealing with an unfortunate set of implications. Whether they were intentional or not.

 

 

See, I *DON'T see them as "my Jewish analogue Transformers". At all. And further, this aspect doesn't feel relevant to what made me draw the comparison in the first place. If anything, their transformation is more analogous to, say, the US Vietnam Veterans returning home. They made sacrifices and picked up a very specific set of skills, skills that were CRITICALLY valuable during the war. But those skills didn't translate to civilian life, and the population didn't value the sacrifice because of other complicated factors. What was once a huge asset is now a liability. That's a story I could write. (Hopefully in a way that's respectful to veterans.)

 

 

 

You put it out there, and it's echoed on the Wiki. Meaning people who weren't even aware of the BWU fiction may come across and see it. I think it's a valid target for criticism.

 

Hey, criticize away, but I don't see the criticism as especially valid or insightful. 

 

At its core, BWU is about about how people and groups get marginalized. In real life discrimination is often along lines like religion, ethnicity, language. For Transformers those specific things don't apply but other things to do. What they transform into, what their sizes are, what their programming is. It's comfortably removed from the human experience, and that lets us explore difficult subjects respectfully and perhaps with a modicum of dispassion that would be impossible when discussing the real-life rough analogs.

 

So, I guess, I'm sorry if the comparison offended you. I don't really think it's disrespectful in any way, but should I get the opportunity to delve further, being cognizant of real-life groups and their struggles, and being respectful of said struggles, is something that I'll continue to do. 

 
 

 

 

Yyyyeah, Jim, I dunno that this one is worth fighting to defend, especially if you yourself admit that it's a somewhat shallow comparison.

 

be whatever I wanna do.png



#324 LordGigaIce

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 09:16 PM

You also avoided this point I raised...

 

When you make it a point to compare your Jewish analogue Transformers with a subrace of Transformers that, in your own words, "can't Transform into anything useful" you're dealing with an unfortunate set of implications. Whether they were intentional or not.

 

 

See, I *DON'T see them as "my Jewish analogue Transformers". At all. And further, this aspect doesn't feel relevant to what made me draw the comparison in the first place. If anything, their transformation is more analogous to, say, the US Vietnam Veterans returning home. They made sacrifices and picked up a very specific set of skills, skills that were CRITICALLY valuable during the war. But those skills didn't translate to civilian life, and the population didn't value the sacrifice because of other complicated factors. What was once a huge asset is now a liability. That's a story I could write. (Hopefully in a way that's respectful to veterans.)

You said, and this is direct quote...

 

 

The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

There's no line break. Nothing to indicate the start of a new train of thought. Your post where you explored this line of thought goes right from "they're a lot like the Jewish" to "they don't Transform into anything useful."
It's possible that you made a mistake and didn't intend those two sentiments to be as closely tied as they appear to be in the text, but that is how it's presented. So I don't feel like I'm particularly reaching when I say that, as a Jewish person, you saying the Transformers that have parallels to Jews "didn't transform into anything useful" took me by surprise.

 

 

So, I guess, I'm sorry if the comparison offended you.

...and that's the problem. I suppose I would be offended that you didn't find my comparison "valid" or "insightful," but given that you actually played the "I'm sorry if you were offended" card? Nah, that stuff doesn't bother me, really.

 

See, here's how I see this. You made a post about the Cyberdroids. You mentioned how they've been pushed into commerce and trade, and this makes them like historical Jewish populations. And then, without anything to indicate you were starting a new line of thought, said "they don't transform into anything useful."
 

Now you could have said "the not anything useful thing was unrelated to the parallels I saw with Jews, I'm sorry if I misrepresented what I was trying to say." Or you could have said "I didn't mean it like that, but I can see how, looking back, it doesn't look great. Sorry and here's what I meant."

 

But no. You went with the "I'm sorry you were offended" spiel, which is perhaps one of the most polite ways to say "hug you" there is. And this is why your dismissal of my criticism doesn't feel particularly forceful.

You come off as a guy who defaulted to IT'S YOUR FAULT IF YOU'RE MAD the moment someone mentioned something you may have said could be problematic.

And assuming you're a decent guy who means what he says when you say...

 

 

Rather, after their creation it seems like there were a few parallels. I didn't, and don't, see those parallels as negative.

...it just comes off as you being hyper-defensive over a poorly worded quote that didn't properly reflect what you were trying to say.

 

Because yeah. As a Jewish person? Going "these guys are like Jews, and also they're not useful" is hugging insulting. That's what's on the page, man. And if you didn't intend for those thoughts to be related? You should, at the very least, have the common decency to go "oh crap, that doesn't look great, ok here's what I meant."

It's a better way of dealing with things then providing the most patronizing non-apology you could think of. 

 

 

But I don't see it as a 1:1 comparison. At all. I see one or two specific aspects of Cyberdroids mirroring one or two specific aspects of the Jewish historical experience.

Going off of the Wiki...

Railroaded into business and commerce.

Discriminated because of that.

Refugees driven out of their homeland.

And the target of a mass extermination.

Eeep. That's more than one or two.

 

Regardless. If you ever want to do a story that touched on the "one or two specific aspects of Cyberdroids mirroring one or two specific aspects of the Jewish historical experience" I sincerely hope you approach the story with a degree of respect and understanding.


Edited by LordGigaIce, 08 August 2018 - 09:17 PM.


#325 Jim S

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 11:19 PM

You said, and this is direct quote...

 

The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

There's no line break. Nothing to indicate the start of a new train of thought. Your post where you explored this line of thought goes right from "they're a lot like the Jewish" to "they don't Transform into anything useful."
It's possible that you made a mistake and didn't intend those two sentiments to be as closely tied as they appear to be in the text, but that is how it's presented. So I don't feel like I'm particularly reaching when I say that, as a Jewish person, you saying the Transformers that have parallels to Jews "didn't transform into anything useful" took me by surprise.

 

I mean, sure, I said that. But in the context of:

 

(As an aside, I was just saying the other day that, in Builder society, Cyberdroids occupy a strange and uncomfortable niche. They're technically and LEGALLY Builders, which is really important in terms of the ability to own businesses, which Maximals and Predacons can't easily do. But socially they're viewed as outsiders. Maximals and Predacons, who make up the bulk of active society, don't count them as members. But Builders, who hold most of the wealth and political power, don't feel like they belong either. Micromasters are already looked down on for deigning to remain mobile, and they're basically the Builder military class. Cyberdroids, who have mostly turned to commerce, are distrusted on all sides. The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

 

I thought it was pretty clear from context I was sharing general facts about Cyberdroids. Fact 1, fact 1, fact 3, fact 4, fact 5, fact 6, fact 7 (aside relating fact 7 to real life), fact 8. I didn't realize until this, your third post, that it was this very juxtaposition that was upsetting you. If you notice, I didn't deign to even address the criticism in my first reply, because I thought it was blatantly and obviously irrelevant. When pressed, I explained WHY I didn't think that part of the fairly long paragraph was relevant, with another example and with some humor. It's only now that I'm getting that this juxtaposition bothered you. 

 

For what it's worth, I didn't read the juxtaposition as significant in any way. Obviously you did. That wasn't my intent. 

 

 

So, I guess, I'm sorry if the comparison offended you.

...and that's the problem. I suppose I would be offended that you didn't find my comparison "valid" or "insightful," but given that you actually played the "I'm sorry if you were offended" card? Nah, that stuff doesn't bother me, really.

 

See, here's how I see this. You made a post about the Cyberdroids. You mentioned how they've been pushed into commerce and trade, and this makes them like historical Jewish populations. And then, without anything to indicate you were starting a new line of thought, said "they don't transform into anything useful."
 

Now you could have said "the not anything useful thing was unrelated to the parallels I saw with Jews, I'm sorry if I misrepresented what I was trying to say." Or you could have said "I didn't mean it like that, but I can see how, looking back, it doesn't look great. Sorry and here's what I meant."

 

But no. You went with the "I'm sorry you were offended" spiel, which is perhaps one of the most polite ways to say "hug you" there is. And this is why your dismissal of my criticism doesn't feel particularly forceful.

You come off as a guy who defaulted to IT'S YOUR FAULT IF YOU'RE MAD the moment someone mentioned something you may have said could be problematic.

 

I think I *DID* say that the not useful thing was unrelated to the parallels!

 

 And further, this aspect doesn't feel relevant to what made me draw the comparison in the first place. If anything, their transformation is more analogous to, say, the US Vietnam Veterans returning home. They made sacrifices and picked up a very specific set of skills, skills that were CRITICALLY valuable during the war. But those skills didn't translate to civilian life, and the population didn't value the sacrifice because of other complicated factors. What was once a huge asset is now a liability. That's a story I could write. (Hopefully in a way that's respectful to veterans.)

 

 

No, I genuinely didn't see any way in which my comparison was problematic. Now that you've explained that it's the juxtaposition of my aside with fact 8, I guess I can kind of see it. 

 

But I don't think I'm playing any cards here. I don't like that you're offended. But upon review, I still don't see anything problematic in my behavior. Perhaps I'd put in a couple of parenthesis, or list the fact of the (currently) useless alt modes at a different point in the paragraph. 

 

And assuming you're a decent guy who means what he says when you say...

 

Rather, after their creation it seems like there were a few parallels. I didn't, and don't, see those parallels as negative.

...it just comes off as you being hyper-defensive over a poorly worded quote that didn't properly reflect what you were trying to say.

 

Defensive? That wasn't what I was going for. (I was going for dismissive.) And again, until your third post, I really wasn't understanding the root of your criticism. 

 

 

Because yeah. As a Jewish person? Going "these guys are like Jews, and also they're not useful" is hugging insulting. That's what's on the page, man. And if you didn't intend for those thoughts to be related? You should, at the very least, have the common decency to go "oh crap, that doesn't look great, ok here's what I meant."

It's a better way of dealing with things then providing the most patronizing non-apology you could think of. 

 

Well, FWIW, the idea that THAT was what I was trying to say was SO far removed from my intention, and my cold read on the quote 2 years later, that I didn't even realize that that's what you were getting at until just now. 

 

Again, not what I was going for. I meant it as one fact in a laundry list of many. A fact that draws closer parallels to a different marginalized group.

 

So... I think I'm done here. You're obviously taking this way more personally than I am. I genuinely am sorry if you're offended. I'm genuinely not sorry about what I wrote, and I think it's clear from context that I wasn't intending it the way you took it. I hope it's 100% clear now that that's now how I meant it. 

 

As ever, you're welcome to love, hate, like, dislike, praise, or trash my stuff, and I suppose that includes my message board posts. 

 

 

PS: I was trying to lighten up the tone with some memes. Guess it didn't work.

 

PPS: Dayum! The wiki definitely saw more parallels than I did! I'm a better writer than I thought!

 

PPPS:

if-i-just-keep-looking-cute-theyll-surely-blame-the-dog-cute-cat-memes.jpg

 


Edited by Jim S, 08 August 2018 - 11:24 PM.


#326 Sabrblade

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 12:52 AM

Looking at Jim's original quote in question, his use of the words "also" and "added" strike me as referring to a new separate point made after he finished the preceding point about the Jewish comparison.


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QUOTE(Bass X0 @ Aug 17 2013, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the concept of being educated and being able to educate is something that more people need more of in their lives.

No, we don't all know everything but we should spread and share that what we do know.

If I'm consistently misspelling a word, I would want and expect people to correct me as should I imagine all decent people who know the value of good literacy.

Its just arrogant laziness to know you're spelling a word incorrectly and not correct yourself or ignore the advice when people do tell you how to spell a word correctly.

#327 SHIELD Agent 47

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Posted 30 August 2018 - 05:05 PM

Wow, The Wadapan asked Josh Burcham if he could provide clean copes of the "Intersectionality" covers, and here they are!

 

http://dcjoshart.tum...st/177563193040

 

tumblr_peajtbHY6L1sdb30fo1_1280.jpg


遊び終わ。- ブレラ・スターン少佐西暦2059年

 

Visit the Transformers Wiki and the IDW Hasbro Wiki!

 

 


#328 SHIELD Agent 47

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 05:02 AM

I have to say, one of my favorite toy-based gimmicks in Uprising was modeling Uprising Wolfang on Universe Sideswipe-Sunstreaker / Timelines Punch-Counterpunch.

 

We really need an official version in plastic, like this nifty custom demonstrated by PrimalSabbath:

 

DuhXt58WoAA1aFW.jpg

 

DuhXvYzWsAAVYUu.jpg

 

https://twitter.com/...205070923874304


Edited by SHIELD Agent 47, 17 December 2018 - 05:03 AM.

遊び終わ。- ブレラ・スターン少佐西暦2059年

 

Visit the Transformers Wiki and the IDW Hasbro Wiki!

 

 




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