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@  Verity Carlo : (16 January 2019 - 01:12 PM)

https://sites.google...ations---part-1awwwww shit

@  Benbot : (16 January 2019 - 12:36 PM)

Remember the Noid? He steals pizzas!

@  Steevy Maximus : (16 January 2019 - 10:47 AM)

That said, the old "Nester" character from Nintendo Power IS owned by Nintendo, and I could see a homage in there

@  Steevy Maximus : (16 January 2019 - 10:46 AM)

Because technically DiC created the character, Nintendo does not own him.

@  Paladin : (16 January 2019 - 10:28 AM)

sidebar- why is "Captain N" not in Smash yet? that seems like such an easy option.

@  wonko the sane? : (16 January 2019 - 09:18 AM)

The 90's mario cartoons had exactly three character aspects to work with: fat, italian and plumber. He wasn't exactly wrenching pipes in every episode, so they had to do something...

@  TheMightyMol... : (16 January 2019 - 07:31 AM)

It's in another castle.

@  unluckiness : (16 January 2019 - 06:24 AM)

i HOpE sHe mADe LotSA SPAGHETTI

@  Locoman : (16 January 2019 - 06:17 AM)

Mario, wherever you are, HEEEEEEEELP!

@  unluckiness : (16 January 2019 - 06:07 AM)

That's Mama Luigi to you, Mario *wheeze*

@  Pennpenn : (16 January 2019 - 02:24 AM)

It's too hot here.

@  Echowarrior : (15 January 2019 - 11:03 PM)

I liked the Super Mario Brothers Super Show the best myself.

@  Sabrblade : (15 January 2019 - 10:35 PM)

There's always the three Mario cartoons DiC made back in the 80s.

@  wonko the sane? : (15 January 2019 - 09:48 PM)

So they could make a show that everyone would scream was an adventure time knockoff? I get what you're saying, but I can't see it being well received.

@  Sean Whitmore : (15 January 2019 - 08:47 PM)

The fact that Adventure Time was on the air for 8 years and at no point did Nintendo hand the creators a large sack of money and say, "Please make a Mario thing for us" will forever anger me.

@  wonko the sane? : (15 January 2019 - 07:03 PM)

There was so much awesome put into design and conception of the super mario bros. movie, and it didn't even need the branding: but it wouldn't have made it to the screen without the branding.

@  TM2-Megatron : (15 January 2019 - 06:56 PM)

Many aspects of it have stuck in my memory, though. The boots, the devolution ray, the aesthetic of the dinosaur city

@  TM2-Megatron : (15 January 2019 - 06:55 PM)

I had no idea there was another Mario Bros. movie coming out, though. Doubt it'll top the first one, it was just so bizarre

@  TM2-Megatron : (15 January 2019 - 06:55 PM)

They already act a bit like minions; they just aren't stupid

@  wonko the sane? : (15 January 2019 - 05:35 PM)

The trouble is: I honestly can't decide if making them minions would be better or worse than the continuously shrill voices they've used for the last 20 years.

@  Paladin : (15 January 2019 - 05:27 PM)

hope everyone's ready for Toads to look, act & sound like the Minions forever...

@  Lancer : (15 January 2019 - 04:54 PM)

I mean, considering Illumination is making the new Mario movie, Super Mario Bros. 1993 won't be the worst Mario movie anymore

@  Sabrblade : (15 January 2019 - 04:36 PM)

"Sir, your pizza's here." "Not now!"

@  wonko the sane? : (15 January 2019 - 04:28 PM)

Actually, yeah. I think I need to watch it again. Great movie.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (15 January 2019 - 03:44 PM)

It's a fun movie with amazing sets. As long as you don't try to connect it to anything else Mario, it's fine.

@  TM2-Megatron : (15 January 2019 - 03:38 PM)

Damn, I haven't thought about the Super Mario Bros. feature film in forever. Need to watch it again, soon; I can only imagine it gets better with time.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (15 January 2019 - 03:21 PM)

Re:Zero is a fantastic series.

@  ▲ndrusi : (15 January 2019 - 03:10 PM)

Yeah it's not a bad concept, it's just that lately the term is associated with "I, a Loser Everyman, Woke Up In a Generic Fantasy Setting Where I'm Super Special So Now Girls Orbit Me"

@  Sabrblade : (15 January 2019 - 12:59 PM)

So too is the old Super Mario Bros movie

@  wonko the sane? : (15 January 2019 - 12:28 PM)

I went and looked up the term "isekai"... that's not actually as bad as I thought it was going to be.

@  ▲ndrusi : (15 January 2019 - 12:19 PM)

I'm not sure, but the cartoon segments of The Super Mario Bros. Super Show are.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (15 January 2019 - 12:12 PM)

Wait. A. Minute. Is Blaster Master an isekai?

@  MEDdMI : (15 January 2019 - 08:49 AM)

*Dragon Slave*

@  Xellos : (15 January 2019 - 06:22 AM)

I used to use a pic like that as my avatar for years, but that... is a secret.

@  PlutoniumBoss : (15 January 2019 - 02:07 AM)

Is Flatland an isekai?

@  MEDdMI : (14 January 2019 - 11:16 PM)

@Xellos Every time I see you post, I picture Xellos' infuriating smug grin and finger waggling with the "sore wa hi*mi*tsu*desu <3"

@  Waspinator : (14 January 2019 - 09:50 PM)

The Last Starfighter is also one of those

@  Cybersnark : (14 January 2019 - 09:28 PM)

Astronaut gets shot through a wornhole and ends up on a living starship full of escaped alien prisoners.

@  Cybersnark : (14 January 2019 - 09:28 PM)

I realized a few months ago that Farscape is a sci-fi-based Isekai.

@  Sabrblade : (14 January 2019 - 09:03 PM)

The Thor movies and Enchanted, as well.

@  Tm_Silverclaw : (14 January 2019 - 08:45 PM)

@xellos We get to many of those in Hollywood movies.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (14 January 2019 - 08:13 PM)

Re:Creators!

@  Xellos : (14 January 2019 - 07:47 PM)

There is also Aesthetica of a Rogue Hero, where people regularly get summoned to a fantasy world, then eventually sent back with their accumulated powers (and the main character smuggles the demon lord's daugher by his request, which is a no-no)

@  Waspinator : (14 January 2019 - 07:23 PM)

We need more inverse isekais, like The Devil is a Part-Timer

@  ▲ndrusi : (14 January 2019 - 04:11 PM)

I feel like Tron is pushing it but I can't actually come up with an argument to that effect

@  Pennpenn : (14 January 2019 - 03:21 PM)

To Arazyr- I don't see why it wouldn't be.

@  Xellos : (14 January 2019 - 02:11 PM)

Just like how TRON and Captain N are early examples of "getting transported into a video game"

@  NotVeryKnightly : (14 January 2019 - 02:07 PM)

That would explain why it's so common for isekai settings to be blatantly RPG-inspired.

@  Arazyr : (14 January 2019 - 01:42 PM)

Would the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon count as isekai? 8^)

@  ▲ndrusi : (14 January 2019 - 12:06 PM)

I am in the exceedingly unpleasant position of knowing what you're talking about


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Beast Wars: Uprising General Discussion


327 replies to this topic

#321 LordGigaIce

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 06:58 PM

"There are very real historical reasons to why Jews were essentially forced into those professions..."

...uhhh... yeah. I know. THAT'S the comparison. There are real historic reasons in-universe why Cyberdroids are in the professions they are in.

My point is that in doing such a 1:1 comparison you're essentially furthering the "oh hey, this group in this fictional universe is prevalent in trading and commerce because they're robot space Jews."

There's so much more to Jewish identity and culture than the occupations our ancestors were railroaded into centuries ago. There are so many other places you could have gone to if you wanted an analogue for historical Jewish populations than "good at commerce." It's low hanging fruit, and it relies on referencing negative stereotypes.

 

You also avoided this point I raised...

 

The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

When you make it a point to compare your Jewish analogue Transformers with a subrace of Transformers that, in your own words, "can't Transform into anything useful" you're dealing with an unfortunate set of implications. Whether they were intentional or not.

 

Also this is a vague idea that's not addressed in-universe. If we were going to explore this, we'd do our homework and be careful to be respectful.

You put it out there, and it's echoed on the Wiki. Meaning people who weren't even aware of the BWU fiction may come across and see it. I think it's a valid target for criticism.


Edited by LordGigaIce, 08 August 2018 - 06:59 PM.


#322 Broadside

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:47 PM

Yyyyeah, Jim, I dunno that this one is worth fighting to defend, especially if you yourself admit that it's a somewhat shallow comparison.

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#323 Jim S

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 08:34 PM

My point is that in doing such a 1:1 comparison you're essentially furthering the "oh hey, this group in this fictional universe is prevalent in trading and commerce because they're robot space Jews."

 

There's so much more to Jewish identity and culture than the occupations our ancestors were railroaded into centuries ago. There are so many other places you could have gone to if you wanted an analogue for historical Jewish populations than "good at commerce." It's low hanging fruit, and it relies on referencing negative stereotypes.

 

But I don't see it as a 1:1 comparison. At all. I see one or two specific aspects of Cyberdroids mirroring one or two specific aspects of the Jewish historical experience. It's not like I'm trying to do:

 

jews in space.jpg

 

FWIW, Cyberdroids and their role in society evolved naturally over the course of the 12 stories. The specific comparison occurred much later, after most (if not all?) of the stories were written.. They were NOT created as a way to explore a robot space analogy to the Jewish people. Rather, after their creation it seems like there were a few parallels. I didn't, and don't, see those parallels as negative. I *DO* see them as something I might want to explore in the future. 

 

 

You also avoided this point I raised...

 

When you make it a point to compare your Jewish analogue Transformers with a subrace of Transformers that, in your own words, "can't Transform into anything useful" you're dealing with an unfortunate set of implications. Whether they were intentional or not.

 

 

See, I *DON'T see them as "my Jewish analogue Transformers". At all. And further, this aspect doesn't feel relevant to what made me draw the comparison in the first place. If anything, their transformation is more analogous to, say, the US Vietnam Veterans returning home. They made sacrifices and picked up a very specific set of skills, skills that were CRITICALLY valuable during the war. But those skills didn't translate to civilian life, and the population didn't value the sacrifice because of other complicated factors. What was once a huge asset is now a liability. That's a story I could write. (Hopefully in a way that's respectful to veterans.)

 

 

 

You put it out there, and it's echoed on the Wiki. Meaning people who weren't even aware of the BWU fiction may come across and see it. I think it's a valid target for criticism.

 

Hey, criticize away, but I don't see the criticism as especially valid or insightful. 

 

At its core, BWU is about about how people and groups get marginalized. In real life discrimination is often along lines like religion, ethnicity, language. For Transformers those specific things don't apply but other things to do. What they transform into, what their sizes are, what their programming is. It's comfortably removed from the human experience, and that lets us explore difficult subjects respectfully and perhaps with a modicum of dispassion that would be impossible when discussing the real-life rough analogs.

 

So, I guess, I'm sorry if the comparison offended you. I don't really think it's disrespectful in any way, but should I get the opportunity to delve further, being cognizant of real-life groups and their struggles, and being respectful of said struggles, is something that I'll continue to do. 

 
 

 

 

Yyyyeah, Jim, I dunno that this one is worth fighting to defend, especially if you yourself admit that it's a somewhat shallow comparison.

 

be whatever I wanna do.png



#324 LordGigaIce

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 09:16 PM

You also avoided this point I raised...

 

When you make it a point to compare your Jewish analogue Transformers with a subrace of Transformers that, in your own words, "can't Transform into anything useful" you're dealing with an unfortunate set of implications. Whether they were intentional or not.

 

 

See, I *DON'T see them as "my Jewish analogue Transformers". At all. And further, this aspect doesn't feel relevant to what made me draw the comparison in the first place. If anything, their transformation is more analogous to, say, the US Vietnam Veterans returning home. They made sacrifices and picked up a very specific set of skills, skills that were CRITICALLY valuable during the war. But those skills didn't translate to civilian life, and the population didn't value the sacrifice because of other complicated factors. What was once a huge asset is now a liability. That's a story I could write. (Hopefully in a way that's respectful to veterans.)

You said, and this is direct quote...

 

 

The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

There's no line break. Nothing to indicate the start of a new train of thought. Your post where you explored this line of thought goes right from "they're a lot like the Jewish" to "they don't Transform into anything useful."
It's possible that you made a mistake and didn't intend those two sentiments to be as closely tied as they appear to be in the text, but that is how it's presented. So I don't feel like I'm particularly reaching when I say that, as a Jewish person, you saying the Transformers that have parallels to Jews "didn't transform into anything useful" took me by surprise.

 

 

So, I guess, I'm sorry if the comparison offended you.

...and that's the problem. I suppose I would be offended that you didn't find my comparison "valid" or "insightful," but given that you actually played the "I'm sorry if you were offended" card? Nah, that stuff doesn't bother me, really.

 

See, here's how I see this. You made a post about the Cyberdroids. You mentioned how they've been pushed into commerce and trade, and this makes them like historical Jewish populations. And then, without anything to indicate you were starting a new line of thought, said "they don't transform into anything useful."
 

Now you could have said "the not anything useful thing was unrelated to the parallels I saw with Jews, I'm sorry if I misrepresented what I was trying to say." Or you could have said "I didn't mean it like that, but I can see how, looking back, it doesn't look great. Sorry and here's what I meant."

 

But no. You went with the "I'm sorry you were offended" spiel, which is perhaps one of the most polite ways to say "hug you" there is. And this is why your dismissal of my criticism doesn't feel particularly forceful.

You come off as a guy who defaulted to IT'S YOUR FAULT IF YOU'RE MAD the moment someone mentioned something you may have said could be problematic.

And assuming you're a decent guy who means what he says when you say...

 

 

Rather, after their creation it seems like there were a few parallels. I didn't, and don't, see those parallels as negative.

...it just comes off as you being hyper-defensive over a poorly worded quote that didn't properly reflect what you were trying to say.

 

Because yeah. As a Jewish person? Going "these guys are like Jews, and also they're not useful" is hugging insulting. That's what's on the page, man. And if you didn't intend for those thoughts to be related? You should, at the very least, have the common decency to go "oh crap, that doesn't look great, ok here's what I meant."

It's a better way of dealing with things then providing the most patronizing non-apology you could think of. 

 

 

But I don't see it as a 1:1 comparison. At all. I see one or two specific aspects of Cyberdroids mirroring one or two specific aspects of the Jewish historical experience.

Going off of the Wiki...

Railroaded into business and commerce.

Discriminated because of that.

Refugees driven out of their homeland.

And the target of a mass extermination.

Eeep. That's more than one or two.

 

Regardless. If you ever want to do a story that touched on the "one or two specific aspects of Cyberdroids mirroring one or two specific aspects of the Jewish historical experience" I sincerely hope you approach the story with a degree of respect and understanding.


Edited by LordGigaIce, 08 August 2018 - 09:17 PM.


#325 Jim S

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 11:19 PM

You said, and this is direct quote...

 

The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

There's no line break. Nothing to indicate the start of a new train of thought. Your post where you explored this line of thought goes right from "they're a lot like the Jewish" to "they don't Transform into anything useful."
It's possible that you made a mistake and didn't intend those two sentiments to be as closely tied as they appear to be in the text, but that is how it's presented. So I don't feel like I'm particularly reaching when I say that, as a Jewish person, you saying the Transformers that have parallels to Jews "didn't transform into anything useful" took me by surprise.

 

I mean, sure, I said that. But in the context of:

 

(As an aside, I was just saying the other day that, in Builder society, Cyberdroids occupy a strange and uncomfortable niche. They're technically and LEGALLY Builders, which is really important in terms of the ability to own businesses, which Maximals and Predacons can't easily do. But socially they're viewed as outsiders. Maximals and Predacons, who make up the bulk of active society, don't count them as members. But Builders, who hold most of the wealth and political power, don't feel like they belong either. Micromasters are already looked down on for deigning to remain mobile, and they're basically the Builder military class. Cyberdroids, who have mostly turned to commerce, are distrusted on all sides. The closest example I can think of from history are the Jewish. There's also this added angle that Cyberdroids basically can't Transform into anything useful. Not much call for a free-floating head or engine, and the guns are all gone at this point, so their reputations suffer for that reason too.)

 

I thought it was pretty clear from context I was sharing general facts about Cyberdroids. Fact 1, fact 1, fact 3, fact 4, fact 5, fact 6, fact 7 (aside relating fact 7 to real life), fact 8. I didn't realize until this, your third post, that it was this very juxtaposition that was upsetting you. If you notice, I didn't deign to even address the criticism in my first reply, because I thought it was blatantly and obviously irrelevant. When pressed, I explained WHY I didn't think that part of the fairly long paragraph was relevant, with another example and with some humor. It's only now that I'm getting that this juxtaposition bothered you. 

 

For what it's worth, I didn't read the juxtaposition as significant in any way. Obviously you did. That wasn't my intent. 

 

 

So, I guess, I'm sorry if the comparison offended you.

...and that's the problem. I suppose I would be offended that you didn't find my comparison "valid" or "insightful," but given that you actually played the "I'm sorry if you were offended" card? Nah, that stuff doesn't bother me, really.

 

See, here's how I see this. You made a post about the Cyberdroids. You mentioned how they've been pushed into commerce and trade, and this makes them like historical Jewish populations. And then, without anything to indicate you were starting a new line of thought, said "they don't transform into anything useful."
 

Now you could have said "the not anything useful thing was unrelated to the parallels I saw with Jews, I'm sorry if I misrepresented what I was trying to say." Or you could have said "I didn't mean it like that, but I can see how, looking back, it doesn't look great. Sorry and here's what I meant."

 

But no. You went with the "I'm sorry you were offended" spiel, which is perhaps one of the most polite ways to say "hug you" there is. And this is why your dismissal of my criticism doesn't feel particularly forceful.

You come off as a guy who defaulted to IT'S YOUR FAULT IF YOU'RE MAD the moment someone mentioned something you may have said could be problematic.

 

I think I *DID* say that the not useful thing was unrelated to the parallels!

 

 And further, this aspect doesn't feel relevant to what made me draw the comparison in the first place. If anything, their transformation is more analogous to, say, the US Vietnam Veterans returning home. They made sacrifices and picked up a very specific set of skills, skills that were CRITICALLY valuable during the war. But those skills didn't translate to civilian life, and the population didn't value the sacrifice because of other complicated factors. What was once a huge asset is now a liability. That's a story I could write. (Hopefully in a way that's respectful to veterans.)

 

 

No, I genuinely didn't see any way in which my comparison was problematic. Now that you've explained that it's the juxtaposition of my aside with fact 8, I guess I can kind of see it. 

 

But I don't think I'm playing any cards here. I don't like that you're offended. But upon review, I still don't see anything problematic in my behavior. Perhaps I'd put in a couple of parenthesis, or list the fact of the (currently) useless alt modes at a different point in the paragraph. 

 

And assuming you're a decent guy who means what he says when you say...

 

Rather, after their creation it seems like there were a few parallels. I didn't, and don't, see those parallels as negative.

...it just comes off as you being hyper-defensive over a poorly worded quote that didn't properly reflect what you were trying to say.

 

Defensive? That wasn't what I was going for. (I was going for dismissive.) And again, until your third post, I really wasn't understanding the root of your criticism. 

 

 

Because yeah. As a Jewish person? Going "these guys are like Jews, and also they're not useful" is hugging insulting. That's what's on the page, man. And if you didn't intend for those thoughts to be related? You should, at the very least, have the common decency to go "oh crap, that doesn't look great, ok here's what I meant."

It's a better way of dealing with things then providing the most patronizing non-apology you could think of. 

 

Well, FWIW, the idea that THAT was what I was trying to say was SO far removed from my intention, and my cold read on the quote 2 years later, that I didn't even realize that that's what you were getting at until just now. 

 

Again, not what I was going for. I meant it as one fact in a laundry list of many. A fact that draws closer parallels to a different marginalized group.

 

So... I think I'm done here. You're obviously taking this way more personally than I am. I genuinely am sorry if you're offended. I'm genuinely not sorry about what I wrote, and I think it's clear from context that I wasn't intending it the way you took it. I hope it's 100% clear now that that's now how I meant it. 

 

As ever, you're welcome to love, hate, like, dislike, praise, or trash my stuff, and I suppose that includes my message board posts. 

 

 

PS: I was trying to lighten up the tone with some memes. Guess it didn't work.

 

PPS: Dayum! The wiki definitely saw more parallels than I did! I'm a better writer than I thought!

 

PPPS:

if-i-just-keep-looking-cute-theyll-surely-blame-the-dog-cute-cat-memes.jpg

 


Edited by Jim S, 08 August 2018 - 11:24 PM.


#326 Sabrblade

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 12:52 AM

Looking at Jim's original quote in question, his use of the words "also" and "added" strike me as referring to a new separate point made after he finished the preceding point about the Jewish comparison.


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QUOTE(Bass X0 @ Aug 17 2013, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the concept of being educated and being able to educate is something that more people need more of in their lives.

No, we don't all know everything but we should spread and share that what we do know.

If I'm consistently misspelling a word, I would want and expect people to correct me as should I imagine all decent people who know the value of good literacy.

Its just arrogant laziness to know you're spelling a word incorrectly and not correct yourself or ignore the advice when people do tell you how to spell a word correctly.

#327 SHIELD Agent 47

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Posted 30 August 2018 - 05:05 PM

Wow, The Wadapan asked Josh Burcham if he could provide clean copes of the "Intersectionality" covers, and here they are!

 

http://dcjoshart.tum...st/177563193040

 

tumblr_peajtbHY6L1sdb30fo1_1280.jpg


遊び終わ。- ブレラ・スターン少佐西暦2059年

 

Visit the Transformers Wiki and the IDW Hasbro Wiki!

 

 


#328 SHIELD Agent 47

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 05:02 AM

I have to say, one of my favorite toy-based gimmicks in Uprising was modeling Uprising Wolfang on Universe Sideswipe-Sunstreaker / Timelines Punch-Counterpunch.

 

We really need an official version in plastic, like this nifty custom demonstrated by PrimalSabbath:

 

DuhXt58WoAA1aFW.jpg

 

DuhXvYzWsAAVYUu.jpg

 

https://twitter.com/...205070923874304


Edited by SHIELD Agent 47, 17 December 2018 - 05:03 AM.

遊び終わ。- ブレラ・スターン少佐西暦2059年

 

Visit the Transformers Wiki and the IDW Hasbro Wiki!

 

 




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