1305 replies to this topic

[M Virion]

How about that Sheriff who called up the BLM organizer and got the protest changed to a cookout, I know we've talked about it before, but there's a real example of a police officer going beyond his job.

 

And I have no problem with the officer in that video, he did his job properly and it's good. I'm more bemused by your original 'why aren't we talking about this' and I guess my sentiment was really "Cause there isn't anything to talk about." He did his job, which is good. I'm not sure what more we're supposed to add.

Edited by Ms Virion, 22 July 2016 - 10:06 PM.

[StarSaber]

Sorry, but what he did is what I expect a police officer to to do. That it's rare is a testament to how badly our police forces need fixed.
 
Plus, lets be honest, he was probably too busy trying not to bust a gut laughing. Sovereign Citizens are hilariously clueless.

I didn't literally mean he should get a medal. I'm just impressed with his ability to refrain from laughing as you point out.

-SS (I would've asked her what year she's living in.)

[Teufel]

Your link just goes to this thread. I'm already in it, Bainreese! Here's an article with the video of the arrest and squad care conversation.

 

The cop who arrested her is actually not the same cop who was talking to her in the squad car.

 

The chief of police said this:

 

 

During his news conference, Acevedo lamented that the video had overshadowed the good work done by many of his officers. He also said, however, that the video “speaks for itself” and that any officers not shocked by it needed to “check their hearts.”

“I’ve asked my own people to look at these videos and ask, ‘Am I approaching a 15 mph speeding ticket like that?’ ” he said. ” ‘Is that the way I want my loved one treated?’ ”

[Rhinox]

the amount of force used in that arrest was inappropriate and way out of scale for the level of resistance she offered.  

[Bainreese]

I disagree.  You can see him struggling to get her out of the car and you can see him struggling to get her to the ground as she braces and resists all the way.  Where I might agree is once she is cuffed and he's walking her to the car he was holding her arms up high and I don't know that that was necessary.  How one is to neutralize a potential threat when the person is using enough force to not allow the officer to take them down or get out of the car I don't even know.  This isn't am matter of 'pretty please do as I ask'.  When a person is refusing to comply with an officer's requests, especially in a traffic stop situation....the officer must neutralize the potential threat as quickly as possible.  I could literally through up several video montages of people not complying during traffic stops and the situation turning deadly in a split second for the officer.  This is why its so important to comply.  Why on earth did she just not follow the officer's instructions?  They were not unreasonable and it was only a simple speeding infraction.  He only asked her to get back in the car and close the door.

Knowing now that it was a different officer in the car my comments still apply to that officer in the car.  He should be removed from being a police officer.  You can't serve and protect people you have predetermined are a more violent threat to you.

[M Virion]

Sorry Bain, but I'm going to take Rhinox, an actual corrections officer, at his word over yours.

[Wheelimus]

Sorry Bain, but I'm going to take Rhinox, an actual corrections officer, at his word over yours.

 

+1 because approaching something as a interested amateur can give you an informed opinion but it isn't going to be more informed than a professional. Not that you don't also need to scrutinize the pro but in this case we know Rhinox isn't spewing BS to cover for his buddies. We're lucky to have a cop who will speak as close to unbiased as any officer you're going to find.

 

Similarly I know a ton about baseball. I have spent my whole life watching and enjoying it. If we were going to have a discussion about baseball I'm your well informed amateur. But if any former manager or similar walks in the room I'm suddenly not the smartest sabremetric loving nerd in the room.

[Bainreese]

Corrections officer =/= Police officer.

It's okay that you disagree with where the use of force was excessive or not. But corrections officers are not trained in traffic stops and their potential dangers. I'll listen to my brothers on this one. They are trained in this and have 35+ years experience between them in policing.

[M Virion]

Sorry but I think that's bunk. I don't know your brothers, I don't know what kind of people they are. You can assure me til the day is long that they're great people who are completely trustworthy and therefore their words have weight, but I also know from knowing you, that you're a pretty hardcore authoritarian. I love you anyway, but I have to assume members of your family are likely to hold similar views.

 

I trust Rhinox's words because I know him, and from what I know of you I'm not sure I can trust that you, or your brothers, would find any level of force to be excessive.

[Ironbite]

Where have I heard that argument before?

 

Ironbite-cause I swear its still as full of bullshit as the first time I've heard it.

[Bainreese]

Sorry but I think that's bunk. I don't know your brothers, I don't know what kind of people they are. You can assure me til the day is long that they're great people who are completely trustworthy and therefore their words have weight, but I also know from knowing you, that you're a pretty hardcore authoritarian. I love you anyway, but I have to assume members of your family are likely to hold similar views.
 
I trust Rhinox's words because I know him, and from what I know of you I'm not sure I can trust that you, or your brothers, would find any level of force to be excessive.

Well I did say that I thought holding her hands high, which is meant to cause pain in an effort to more easily move someone, was probably too much. So I do think you can see that I do find some things excessive.

I can't speak for my brothers being or not being authoritarian or even what you might mean by that. I do believe in being a good citizen and in following police instruction when under normal circumstances, as this was since she was pulled over for speeding. I believe civil law enforcement is necessary to have a less chaotic society. But I do believe that a truly free society means one that doesn't favor. I don't know if that makes me authoritarian or not.

I also believe that the police have a right to expect you to follow simple instruction in order to insure their safety. Laws are on the books that require we comply with these instructions. This guy took step by step action that is by the book in that regard as far as my brothers were able to see in the video, with the exception of the arm thing.

#1. Get them to return to the car.
#2. If you can't, detain them to make it more difficult to run and/or retrieve a weapon.

This didn't have to be a thing had she gotten back into her car and closed the car door as per the calm request of the officer. There has to be recognition of that. It was her actions, or rather refusal to act according to instruction, that escalated the situation, not the cops.

Edited by Bainreese, 23 July 2016 - 04:21 PM.

[M Virion]

She did return to her car, so the question is if slamming her to the ground as he did - which is what caused the struggle - was appropriate for her non-compliance to shutting her door. 

 

I don't believe it is, you do apparently. So I believe he is responsible for the escalation and you don't. Is it possible he would have acted exactly the same with anyone else? His words to her cost him what benefit of the doubt I'd have been willing to give.

[Teufel]

The struggle began from the point he tried to remove her from the car physically because she would not follow lawful orders and when she moved to the passenger's side he had no way of knowing if she was trying to escape, get a weapon in the glove box, etc. When I watched it I thought he applied the force necessary to get her under control, she was putting up fierce resistance. But then I read the chief's comments that what he did is wrong he'd essentially show that to people as an example of what not to do.

 

Who am I to argue with the chief of police on that? It sure didn't come across like he was saying that strictly as damage control and for PR.

 

However, even if for argument's sake we say the force to get her in handcuffs was appropriate, it'd be really hard to argue that he wasn't too fast to use force. If you watch the video in ridiculously short time he went from giving her commands to grabbing her. I didn't see any reason that had to happen when they're in a parking lot with no immediate danger and what got her in trouble was speeding. Sure, at a certain point she either has to get out of the car or be removed from the car, but why in two minutes?

[M Virion]

Yeah, i'm going from what I saw in the video - but it really is a /short/ encounter from point A to point B, so I may not have understood fully what happened.

 

When the chief of police isn't defending your actions, though, regardless of what the rest of us are saying or arguing about, it's a hard position to take that it wasn't inappropriate.

[Bainreese]

She did return to her car, so the question is if slamming her to the ground as he did - which is what caused the struggle - was appropriate for her non-compliance to shutting her door. 
 
I don't believe it is, you do apparently. So I believe he is responsible for the escalation and you don't. Is it possible he would have acted exactly the same with anyone else? His words to her cost him what benefit of the doubt I'd have been willing to give.

It was another officer who made the racist comments. The one in the car was not the one who pulled her over.

She was taken to the ground because after she refused to shit the door after being asked twice she further struggled against him as he attempted to detain her.

[Bainreese]

The struggle began from the point he tried to remove her from the car physically because she would not follow lawful orders and when she moved to the passenger's side he had no way of knowing if she was trying to escape, get a weapon in the glove box, etc. When I watched it I thought he applied the force necessary to get her under control, she was putting up fierce resistance. But then I read the chief's comments that what he did is wrong he'd essentially show that to people as an example of what not to do.
 
Who am I to argue with the chief of police on that? It sure didn't come across like he was saying that strictly as damage control and for PR.
 
However, even if for argument's sake we say the force to get her in handcuffs was appropriate, it'd be really hard to argue that he wasn't too fast to use force. If you watch the video in ridiculously short time he went from giving her commands to grabbing her. I didn't see any reason that had to happen when they're in a parking lot with no immediate danger and what got her in trouble was speeding. Sure, at a certain point she either has to get out of the car or be removed from the car, but why in two minutes?

For the most part I agree with what you are saying but given the video montages I've seen of people going from zero to shooting at an officer during a traffic stop I am forced to sympathize with the officer in wanting to get quick control over a person who is not following his requests.

I feel it necessary to once again stress though that what she endured after being in cuffs is beyond the scope of the actions I feel are defensible.

[M Virion]

but given the video montages I've seen of people going from zero to shooting at an officer during a traffic stop I am forced to sympathize with the officer in wanting to get quick control over a person who is not following his requests.

 

I'm not sure why you think this is a valid point. "I saw some videos designed to get me to react in the way I am currently reacting" well I guess they worked? 

[Bainreese]

 

but given the video montages I've seen of people going from zero to shooting at an officer during a traffic stop I am forced to sympathize with the officer in wanting to get quick control over a person who is not following his requests.

 

I'm not sure why you think this is a valid point. "I saw some videos designed to get me to react in the way I am currently reacting" well I guess they worked? 

 

 

They were specifically designed to be training videos to make new officers aware of the very real danger that is there when making a traffic stop and they were made long before the current issues with police violence.  I would hope that I have more discernment and cognitive ability than what you just gave me credit for.

 

We obviously disagree over certain elements we see in that video.  Fair enough.

[M Virion]

They were specifically designed to be training videos to make new officers aware of the very real danger that is there when making a traffic stop and they were made long before the current issues with police violence.

 

Just proves my point, really. The police system needs an overhaul.

 

I would hope that I have more discernment and cognitive ability than what you just gave me credit for.

 

Please don't take offense, I don't really trust anyone's cognitive ability, even my own, when they're close to an issue.

[Bainreese]

They were specifically designed to be training videos to make new officers aware of the very real danger that is there when making a traffic stop and they were made long before the current issues with police violence.

 
Just proves my point, really. The police system needs an overhaul.

To consider real life videos showing how events at a traffic stop can turn deadly for an officer as some kind of propaganda to be dismissed...I just don't know where to go from there.

Edited by Bainreese, 24 July 2016 - 09:35 AM.