Jump to content


Toggle shoutbox Squawkbox Open the Shoutbox in a popup

Please don't post Youtube videos in the chat box. The forums software auto embeds them. 

@  TheMightyMol... : (12 April 2021 - 05:39 AM)

I saw most of them at retail at TRU, but that's not an option in the US anymore.

@  tigerhawk : (12 April 2021 - 04:21 AM)

Dibs on naming the Ark robot Arkonus.

@  Kalidor : (11 April 2021 - 09:48 PM)

The only Titan figure I ever saw at retail was Trypticon at Ollie's

@  PlutoniumBoss : (11 April 2021 - 09:12 PM)

Robosen Prime has market crossover with not just the toy collectors, but robotics enthusiasts quite willing to pay that price for a product like this.

@  wonko the sane? : (11 April 2021 - 08:33 PM)

One of my two local TRUs will stock exactly ONE titan at a time. It usually ends up "clearanced" for about 20 bucks off cause no one is willing to pay for at full price OR discounted.

@  TheMightyMol... : (11 April 2021 - 07:56 PM)

Most stores don't seem to want to stock Commanders or Titans, never mind Unicron.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (11 April 2021 - 07:55 PM)

I wonder if Unicron going to crowdfuning wasn't just a price issue but also stores not wanting to stock and transport something so huge.

@  TM2-Megatron : (11 April 2021 - 07:47 PM)

It is, although this thing could also be considered a STEM educational tool

@  TheMightyMol... : (11 April 2021 - 07:33 PM)

Doesn't change the fact that, for most people, $700 is a pretty hefty investment for a toy.

@  TM2-Megatron : (11 April 2021 - 07:17 PM)

I dunno, $700 doesn't seem that bad for what it does. Some of those Masterpiece figures seem to go for at least half that price, and they don't have any actual robots or even electronics.

@  TheMightyMol... : (11 April 2021 - 05:35 PM)

Not to mention wallet-shattering.

@  LBD "Nyt... : (11 April 2021 - 04:30 PM)

It's a jargon-shattering figure.

@  Kalidor : (10 April 2021 - 08:50 PM)

The licensed Optimus Prime that transforms itself is the appropriate usage of the term "Third Party"

@  Donocropolis : (10 April 2021 - 08:24 AM)

That Optimus isn't built by Hasbro, only licensed. The company that makes it has been making similar robots for years, so no crowdfundng required.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (10 April 2021 - 08:05 AM)

Apparently they're selling one for 74 and a half thousand dollars.

@  wonko the sane? : (10 April 2021 - 08:01 AM)

We could write boston dynamics and ask?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (10 April 2021 - 07:59 AM)

Granted, I'm not sure how much robots with elaborate movement tend to go for.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (10 April 2021 - 07:56 AM)

I think with actual robotics it was easier to justify selling it at a high cost, compared to an unusually large action figure.

@  Tm_Silverclaw : (10 April 2021 - 05:06 AM)

It is a very impressive display of robotics though.

@  tigerhawk : (10 April 2021 - 04:52 AM)

What were they thinking with that self transforming Optimus? should have been another crowd funder for that price.

@  tigerhawk : (08 April 2021 - 03:33 PM)

I wish they'd rerelease Earthrise Ramjet and Dirge.

@  wonko the sane? : (08 April 2021 - 03:04 PM)

Yay! optimus primal just arrived. So now there's... nothing for me to look forward to till scorponok drops... hmmm, I didn't think this through properly...

@  wonko the sane? : (07 April 2021 - 04:26 PM)

It's an older title which recently got a remake so...

@  -LittleAutob... : (07 April 2021 - 01:10 PM)

Ah yes- I think I've heard of that game before. I may be thinking about something else though.

@  wonko the sane? : (07 April 2021 - 08:03 AM)

It's a video game. You get hired to revive and restore a series of derelict space stations.

@  tigerhawk : (07 April 2021 - 07:05 AM)

I've got no idea what that is but yes.

@  wonko the sane? : (07 April 2021 - 06:34 AM)

so... literally the plot to startopia.

@  tigerhawk : (07 April 2021 - 02:32 AM)

Maybe if the Interstellar Alliance collapsed after the big burn and a 'benefactor' repurposed a space station as a commerce one. Oh wait...

@  PlutoniumBoss : (06 April 2021 - 04:35 PM)

Babylon 6?

@  Donocropolis : (06 April 2021 - 11:49 AM)

I'd rather have a Toilet Seat: TNG sequel series than an actual reboot. If something was done well the first time, don't give us the same-thing-but-worse, just give us something new on that bowl..

@  wonko the sane? : (06 April 2021 - 10:19 AM)

Context: my parents had the bathroom redone about a year ago (actually, almost exactly a year ago, as the project was about 4 days from complete and was interrupted by the first pandemic lockdown.). The ridiculous, fancy toilet seat they purchased has since develloped cracks in it and needs to be returned. Dad simply could not get the seat off himself... and see previous shout.

@  wonko the sane? : (06 April 2021 - 10:17 AM)

How to ruin somesones day with one question: Let someone work on a problem for about an hour and a half on their own, come to the realization they need an extra set of hands, ask for help, show you the problem and outright difficulty of it: then ask them "Hey, what does this button do?" and literally solve the two man dilema without doing any work.

@  Dekafox : (06 April 2021 - 09:22 AM)

As far as the TNT move, all of Season 5 was basically epilogue, which didn't help - when it looked like things were ending at Season 4 JMS tried to cram all the major plot threads for his original Season 4 and 5 plan into Season 4, which didn't leave them as much to work with for Season 5. Then TNT totally screwed with Crusade and got it killed before it got a chance to hit the real plot and nothing else really resonated enough to get a series push. A Crusade revival would be the best "B5:TNG" option IMO.

@  electricidad : (06 April 2021 - 08:55 AM)

Peak B5 was the first six episodes of season 4. EVERYTHING CAME TO A HEAD.

@  Kevin S : (06 April 2021 - 08:50 AM)

Generally, I think once B5 moved to TNT things went downhill. The sets didn't look as good (maybe due to ill use of better lighting) and I wasn't always as impressed with casting (Sheridan's new 2nd just didn't work). The movies had decent ideas, but I felt there was something off in the execution. Wonder if TNT pushed for different directors that weren't as familar with B5.

@  wonko the sane? : (06 April 2021 - 08:42 AM)

Did the follow up movies do that badly, or does the creator simply feel like his story was told and refuses to allow more content?

@  Donocropolis : (06 April 2021 - 08:23 AM)

I'd rather have a B5: TNG sequel series than an actual reboot. If something was done well the first time, don't give us the same-thing-but-worse, just give us something new in that world.

@  tigerhawk : (06 April 2021 - 01:26 AM)

A reboot would probably be ruined by meddling and different visions anyway. 

@  Echowarrior : (05 April 2021 - 09:12 PM)

JMS wrote about half of the first season, a little over half of the second, all of the third and fourth, and all but one episode from the fifth. Given he was also the creator and executive producer, him having so much creative control was likely a condition for getting the show made. Shame he didn't have it for Crusade.

@  Dekafox : (05 April 2021 - 08:44 AM)

They also had JMS write every single script bar maybe 2 or 3? That was another big part of how well it hangs together. Do you think any studio would do that nowadays?

@  tigerhawk : (05 April 2021 - 08:16 AM)

Let it be the first all AI acted series.

@  Echowarrior : (04 April 2021 - 08:31 PM)

Yeah, but would the reboot be as good as the original? B5 had a damn good cast, and they can't replicate that easily.

@  Rycochet : (04 April 2021 - 04:33 PM)

One day they'll let a streaminbg service reboot B5 and let the stories be told without the sword of Damocles hanging over them at all times.

@  tigerhawk : (04 April 2021 - 02:32 PM)

It's aged in the set piece areas.

@  wonko the sane? : (04 April 2021 - 02:22 PM)

I don't remember much of B5... I take it we're not talking about cathode ray tubes...

@  tigerhawk : (04 April 2021 - 11:45 AM)

Babylon 5 CRT tech.

@  wonko the sane? : (03 April 2021 - 06:13 PM)

Bloody hell, thanks for the heads up.

@  Bass X0 : (03 April 2021 - 04:55 PM)

be careful with her. someone on tfw2005 broke her wing taking her out of the packaging.

@  wonko the sane? : (03 April 2021 - 08:15 AM)

I got my airazor on wednesday. Just waiting for the BBTS box to arrive with the rest of the line before I start opening things up. Guess I got her just in time too.

@  Telly : (02 April 2021 - 11:48 PM)

woke to a pre order arrival notice from bbts. was hoping/dreading it was unicron, but turns out it was airazor. and as these things always go, i go to walmart later in the day and see airazor sitting on the shelf...


Photo
* * * * * 5 votes

The Official Unofficial Allspark Transgender Thread: Everyone is welcome!

transgender gender identity

2763 replies to this topic

#1 Kira Kira

Kira Kira

    Gimmick Princess

  • Supporter
  • 2226 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:HeLL HeRe, NY
  • Faction::RIBFIR

Posted 01 July 2014 - 11:28 PM

EDIT (5/12/2016): Just want to make a disclaimer that some of the information and ideas about gender I presented in the early posts in this thread are out of date, and frankly, embarrassing to me. ( > . < ) (like I think I spoke of gender and sex as separate concepts, which is such a gender 101 shortcut, bleh)
So feel free to use this info as a base of you want, but after that I'd say to seek out more complete and updated resources out there! (tumblr has tons lol)

That's that. :)

ORIGINAL TEXT:
I've had the idea for a thread like this for a while and after all the trans related discussion in the Botcon superthread I thought now would be a good time.
So here we are!
This thread exists as a place for transgender and cisgender Allsparkers alike to discuss transgender topics, including the basics, transition stuff, amd whatever comes to mind really.
What this thread needs to stay away from is religion and politics, be it pro-transgender individuals or against them. There's a subforum for stuff like that!

I figure the best way to start is to just sort of talk about who I am, what I'm going through right now, stuff like that.
I've been on hormone replacement therapy (HRT) for 6 months now. (I've identified as female for a long time, and have been living part time as a woman sine 2006-ish... I'll have to share more about all that another time) So, HRT is an integral part of transitioning for most trans people, and is what causes the body to change into something that is more congruent with our sense of self. What trans women such as myself take are an estrogen and a testosterone blocker. I'm taking a bioidentical estrogen, which is basically the same chemical as the hormones that cisgender women make, but created in a lab. Science!
Ok, so basically after this long the changes that are happening to my body are pretty apparent, which is cool. It's often described as a second puberty and that's the truest way I can describe it. It's wonderful, but sometimes awkward. And just like puberty it takes time for all the changes to take full effect.
And what changes are that, you might ask? Well all the secondary sex characteristics: breasts, more fat on the hips/thighs/butt, softer skin, thicker head hair, body hair turns vellus,etc. A trans woman's body odor changes as well, becoming more, um, feminine. And there's changes in the pheremones too. Basically HRT makes a lot of changes to the body (the way hormones control the body is fascinating!) Things that don't change are bone structure, facial hair, and voice, although if a trans girl transitions before puberty or during it voice deepening, beards, and bone growth can be avoided!
Oh, and the HRT also changes the libido and stops spontaneous erections. Which is very convenient, lol

There are also mental changes but those are much harder to quantify... It's hard to judge what are actual changes and what is from having a body that better fits the mind. But both happen.

I feel like there are a million other things I want to discuss, but I guess just discussing the physical aspects ia enough to begin with.
Please everyone join in with you question, insights, stories, whatever! Whether you are trans yourself, or a supporter, or just curious, let's make this thread a fun and interesting place!

Edited by Kira Kira, 12 May 2016 - 02:13 PM.

Looking for Combiner Hunters Chromia and Arcee! If you can help plz pm me

My Amazon wish list~! http://a.co/4lE2Xrw

#2 2019

2019
  • Citizen
  • 42884 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 01 July 2014 - 11:41 PM

I admit I've always been curious about the facial hair thing. Ever since I heard it still grows after HRT I gained a lot of respect for my trans friends' ability to make it all dissappear so cleanly, considering how my male friends seem to suddenly bush up in 48 hours.


if you can see this, i apologize for the above tweet, i was young and stupid and had nothing of value to say. please support lgbtq rights and listen to women's voices. that's all that really matters now. the right is evil, and should be opposed. thanks.


#3 Kira Kira

Kira Kira

    Gimmick Princess

  • Supporter
  • 2226 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:HeLL HeRe, NY
  • Faction::RIBFIR

Posted 01 July 2014 - 11:45 PM

Usually a girl will get laser hair removal or electrolysis at some point, unless she wants to keep shaving forever. Until then it's shaving, make up, and luck!
Looking for Combiner Hunters Chromia and Arcee! If you can help plz pm me

My Amazon wish list~! http://a.co/4lE2Xrw

#4 2019

2019
  • Citizen
  • 42884 posts
  • Gender:Female

Posted 01 July 2014 - 11:50 PM

Oh right, silly me.

 

Laser isn't 100% though is it, it leaves about 20% of hair follicles or something.


if you can see this, i apologize for the above tweet, i was young and stupid and had nothing of value to say. please support lgbtq rights and listen to women's voices. that's all that really matters now. the right is evil, and should be opposed. thanks.


#5 Kira Kira

Kira Kira

    Gimmick Princess

  • Supporter
  • 2226 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:HeLL HeRe, NY
  • Faction::RIBFIR

Posted 01 July 2014 - 11:54 PM

Yeah, it takes multiple treatments over time I hear...
Eventually the hair gives up, I guess? Ha.

Edited by Kira Kira, 01 July 2014 - 11:54 PM.

Looking for Combiner Hunters Chromia and Arcee! If you can help plz pm me

My Amazon wish list~! http://a.co/4lE2Xrw

#6 Cheetimus Primal

Cheetimus Primal
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sacramento
  • Faction::RIBFIR

Posted 01 July 2014 - 11:59 PM

I don't have questions at the moment because I'm exhausted but I am so very glad you've started this. I want to learn more and I hope others feel the same.

 

 

Oh, here's a question: Do you listen to Keith and The Girl?



#7 Kira Kira

Kira Kira

    Gimmick Princess

  • Supporter
  • 2226 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:HeLL HeRe, NY
  • Faction::RIBFIR

Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:05 AM

Thanks! I hope everyone does too.

And nope, I had to look them up. Should I be listening?
Looking for Combiner Hunters Chromia and Arcee! If you can help plz pm me

My Amazon wish list~! http://a.co/4lE2Xrw

#8 MrBlud

MrBlud

    Goes down smooth...

  • Retired Staff
  • 52891 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Westlake, OH
  • Faction::RIBFIR

Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:07 AM

Something I've not quite grasped is the whole "transgender" thing.

 

I used to think there were two sexes. Male and Female. A transgender person was someone transitioning either from Male-to-Female or Female-to-Male. Is this not the case? Is a Transgender person someone who simply isn't their born sex even if they don't decide to have therapy or so on to transition?


card-strongarm.jpg


#9 Cheetimus Primal

Cheetimus Primal
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sacramento
  • Faction::RIBFIR

Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:08 AM

The Girl, Chemda, is engaged to a Transgender man named Lauren. It's different int hat he is still outwardly female but identifies male, keeping his birth name and all. Listening to him on the podcast helped me understand things I didn't know existed like phantom feelings of body parts that aren't there and never have been.

 

They do an amazing show and are very informative on a great many things, especially gender issues.



#10 Princess Viola

Princess Viola
  • Supporter
  • 31754 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Faction::Lesbian Ninja

Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:32 AM

Something I've not quite grasped is the whole "transgender" thing.

 

I used to think there were two sexes. Male and Female. A transgender person was someone transitioning either from Male-to-Female or Female-to-Male. Is this not the case? Is a Transgender person someone who simply isn't their born sex even if they don't decide to have therapy or so on to transition?

Basically a transgender person is anyone who's gender identity or gender expression doesn't match someone's assigned sex based upon their physical parts.

 

So for example, I'm transgender because I identify as a female even though I'm 100% biologically male and haven't started HRT or anything.

 

Or someone who is biologically female but identifies as both male and female would be transgender as well.

 

And other things too.


dznwjievmaanw90kooil.png


#11 Kira Kira

Kira Kira

    Gimmick Princess

  • Supporter
  • 2226 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:HeLL HeRe, NY
  • Faction::RIBFIR

Posted 02 July 2014 - 12:41 AM

Something I've not quite grasped is the whole "transgender" thing.
 
I used to think there were two sexes. Male and Female. A transgender person was someone transitioning either from Male-to-Female or Female-to-Male. Is this not the case? Is a Transgender person someone who simply isn't their born sex even if they don't decide to have therapy or so on to transition?

You're basically right (although there are other less common sexes, like intersex people)... The physical change isn't what makes a person transgender, but rather their identifying as a different sex than they were born. That's why sometimes people use transsexual to refer to a transgender person who is actually transition and changing their bodies and such. Even trans people tend to muddle those two terms at times so I hope you don't mind that I don't delve into the nuances.
But in general if someone says they are transgender it's usually safe to assume they want to transition at some point.

The Girl, Chemda, is engaged to a Transgender man named Lauren. It's different int hat he is still outwardly female but identifies male, keeping his birth name and all. Listening to him on the podcast helped me understand things I didn't know existed like phantom feelings of body parts that aren't there and never have been.
 
They do an amazing show and are very informative on a great many things, especially gender issues.

Oh, wow that's cool. Especially to have a unique transgender POV.
Honestly I couldn't see doing what Lauren is doing (or not doing), but more power to him!
Looking for Combiner Hunters Chromia and Arcee! If you can help plz pm me

My Amazon wish list~! http://a.co/4lE2Xrw

#12 Aida Mana-Sue

Aida Mana-Sue

    It can be helped!

  • Citizen
  • 2622 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:The Heart Tree
  • Faction::Lesbian Ninja

Posted 02 July 2014 - 01:27 AM

I'm neutrois (Still feels weird to type) and I was born with a male body. Growing up, I never really enjoyed male company (Apart from my best friend, who I fell in love with) and I always felt uncomfortable being told I had to be more masculine or fit in with the 'lads'.

 

I'd never really seriously questioned my gender identity until a few years ago when II made a few transgender friends I have the utmost respect for (My sexual identity I'd finally figured out a few years previous). Once I'd started questioning, though, I wasn't able to stop. I feel unhappy in my body a lot of the time, but I've never really considered HRT. I actually feel a bit uncomfortable typing this (And talking about my own LGBT issues in general) because I trivialize my own gender identity and believe it's just not worth talking about compared to friends who have gender dysphoria so bad they suffer from chronic depression. I know it's actually counterproductive to think like that, but I really do worry that my issues are 'silly' in comparison.

 

I also worry/think I prefer thinking of myself as female compared to male because that's simply further from where I started. That I might be having these same issues from the opposite perspective if I was born with a female body.

 

I'm sorry I don't really have anything to add to the thread at the moment, but I've always been very interested in learning more about LGBT culture and people, so I'll be following and see if I can contribute.

 

I prefer the personal pronoun 'She' (Non binary pronouns are just not for me) but I'm so used to 'He' that really it's not a big deal.

 

So, uh, I hope that made some sense. It's very late and I'm having quite a poorly night.


W4Zt8zo.jpg


#13 Kira Kira

Kira Kira

    Gimmick Princess

  • Supporter
  • 2226 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:HeLL HeRe, NY
  • Faction::RIBFIR

Posted 02 July 2014 - 02:24 AM

Thanks for sharing, especially since you feel uncomfortable about it. I know it's hard to work through tough stuff like that but it's almost always worth it!

I don't think you should feel bad just because your friends feel the dysphoria and you aren't. Each of us is different and your identity is just as valid as everyone else's.
Looking for Combiner Hunters Chromia and Arcee! If you can help plz pm me

My Amazon wish list~! http://a.co/4lE2Xrw

#14 Jenny

Jenny
  • Citizen
  • 23047 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Faction::Maximal

Posted 02 July 2014 - 02:25 AM

I've always felt uncomfortable in my own body, but it wasn't until around fall last year that I fully realized that I'm trans. (thanks, Kira, by the way, you were a big help in letting myself realizing that.) I haven't gotten on HRT yet or told my parents, because I'm scared they won't accept me for who I am (I live with a bunch of fundies), but I've slowly been coming out to my friends and at least one of my family members (My aunt). And they've helped me when I've been depressed, and my aunt said she'd be able to be there to back me up for when I'm going to tell my parents. I'm kinda hoping to come out somewhere in the next year, and I'm ready to get rid of this stupid body as soon as possible, but I'm still kind of nervous.

 

Anyway, that's my brief history. I'm kinda tired right now, and I don't have anything else to say that Kira and others haven't said already, but I'll be sure to chime in on any questions or anything.



#15 Kira Kira

Kira Kira

    Gimmick Princess

  • Supporter
  • 2226 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:HeLL HeRe, NY
  • Faction::RIBFIR

Posted 02 July 2014 - 02:35 AM

You're welcome kiddo! ( > u ^ )
I like playing big sister/mother, so I like to help when I can.

It's really huge that you have someone like an aunt on your side. That should really help when you come out to the 'rents! Any support is good, but a family member of a similar age to them is def going to make them realize that this isn't just some joke or fad to you, and who you see and something you need to do.

I think everyone in this thread is tired and should be sleeping, me including me. Ha.
Looking for Combiner Hunters Chromia and Arcee! If you can help plz pm me

My Amazon wish list~! http://a.co/4lE2Xrw

#16 Maruten

Maruten
  • Staff
  • 8304 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia
  • Faction::Autobot

Posted 02 July 2014 - 03:58 AM

I think this thread is really, really fantastic because this is an important issue that so many people are just completely unaware of. There are so many people out there who just don't know this is a thing, and who innocently say hurtful or ignorant things not out of prejudice but just because they don't understand.

I'm terrified of gender politics of all varieties because even the simplest aspects can be hugely complex and subjective, and I just don't feel qualified to participate in discussions about that stuff. I think I'm slightly more educated than many because I have a close friend who's a trans woman, and seeing her courage on the path towards transition has been an inspiration and a privilege. But one of the main things I've learned is that human identity is so much more complex than most people realise and there's always more to learn.

Any endeavour that spreads information and fosters understanding is a wonderful thing.

WsuGTl1.jpg


#17 Cat

Cat
  • Retired Staff
  • 11612 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Australia
  • Faction::Autobot

Posted 02 July 2014 - 04:16 AM

I don't think I've ever been happier to see a thread title before.

 

This is a great topic, and I love that already it's clear that there is a hell of a lot of love and support for you all.



#18 Esser-Z

Esser-Z

    I'm never going down at the hands of the likes of you

  • Citizen
  • 32946 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Findlay, OH.
  • Faction::Free Agent

Posted 02 July 2014 - 05:26 AM

I've struggled with gender issues myself, though I've come to the conclusion I'm male enough to not bother changing my body. I'm also dating a transwoman, and have an unexpectedly high number of trans friends. All in all, I don't have too much to learn I feel, but I'm VERY glad this thread is here! :)



#19 FortMax

FortMax

    Not Cybertron Metroplex or Mudflap

  • Supporter
  • 4894 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Coppell, TX
  • Faction::RIRFIB

Posted 02 July 2014 - 07:57 AM

I figured out I was trans just over two weeks ago. It feels like my subconscious has known for at least 15 years, though. I remember having If I Had Animorph Powers daydreams that often ended with me getting stuck in a girl form.
QUOTE(Hasbro)
Paramount Home Entertainment will be releasing RANSFORMERS CYBERTRON on 9.13.05

TbtA3Ye.jpg
Buy my Mini-Pla Goseiger Candy Toy Zords!

#20 StarSaber

StarSaber
  • Validating
  • 2882 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Faction::Autobot

Posted 02 July 2014 - 10:00 AM

Kira,

You said that you only live as a female PT. Are there outside social or professional factors that prevent you from living as your actual gender FT?

If not, living only PT just seems like crossdressing to me since you haven't completely rejected living as your physical sex and seems contrary to what I know about transgenderism.

If this is getting too personal, just let me know.

-SS



Reply to this topic



  



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users