Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

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Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
Yep. It's not even to say that SNW wasn't notably efficient and fluid in how it characterized its main cast through just the right little moments. Discovery had a harder job to do, and it also made a much less impressive effort when you give it that handicap. Acknowledging that is different from using the one show to give the other a shiner.

I will absolutely diminish the shows, or at least the enjoyment of the shows, because of the shitty vocal online fanbase of those shows. Where if you levy any critique whatsoever about how terrible the writing, the camerawork, the acting and the overall themes of stories that make zero ******* sense they just put their fingers in their ears shouting "LAH LAH LAH RACISMS WOMAN HATING LAH LAH LAH" at every opportunity. Is it the shows fault? Yeah - because the creators and the actors (the face of the show) actively encourage this type of behavior. Discovery wasn't good, but there was a lot of good things about it that made it tolerable. Season 4 is the first time it felt like actual Star Trek and even then it's a house of cards.

Even now, when SNW is as much or more a diverse cast as Discovery, they are still mad that people who didn't like Discovery like it. It's obnoxious.

Doesn't help that Discovery started off coming across meanspirited and offensive in its own right in the first season even within the text and not just creator comments. I think there's a portion of that that's unavoidable the moment when a) a contingent of the fanbase exists that really is going to cry "mary sue" with a character who isn't white and male in situations they're trained to write off for one who is, and b) that character is actually, genuinely a mary sue even by white male character standards. That's why for seasons 3 and 4 I really had to take the approach of asking myself, okay, if I pretend the first two seasons didn't happen and I wasn't sick to death of this show, would this oversight or that handwave bother me? (And often the answer was still yes, and the result was a mixed bag of a lot of irritations and a lot of little good bits like you're saying.)

I do think there is a section of guys who really were alienated by a show that focused on a black woman and made a point of reminding the audience that someone was gay every episode, and those guy probably are going to be more comfortable with a show where the top three spots are two white guys and a white woman and anyone's LGBT+ identity hasn't come up. That's kinda been in the background since early S2 Discovery when it had one good episode and it was a Pike episode, and we all already wanted to jump ship for the Enterprise. You know, it's a bit silly to call it a "woke agenda", but the neckbeard contingent that got deep into Captain Marvel production lore aren't wrong that some TV shows really do want to challenge their expectations in ways they find uncomfortable, and I don't feel inclined to accommodate those guys either. Any of the folks who where genuinely upset by SNW recasting an incidental character from TAS as black, for instance, that seems like a learned immune reaction to threats to their personal bubble.

And I think there's a learned reaction on my part in turn, where I just start to expect that sort of antiwoke rage from certain types of fans, or even just expect they'll be more accommodating to it and make excuses for it in others. I don't think I'm alone in that, and I think some of the other folks with that reaction also care a bit more about Discovery.

For me Discovery is a show that's okay if I grant it the mulligan of having dropped through a wormhole into a different show and just try really hard to swallow my frustration when they use science words. They finally got it rolling, but it's always going to be a little wobbly, and I'm going to cringe every time I see a bump coming ahead. When I feel defensive around Discovery, it's more like I think the particular things that people latch onto to complain about probably aren't the actual source of their frustration and often wouldn't bother them in another context. You know, music you'd otherwise jam to can be unbearable with a headache, and Discovery had two seasons of beating us around the head.

But for people who really love it because particular characters speak to them, whether that's as a minority group thing about feeling represented in the future or speaking to an experience they have, or for some completely unrelated reason that just makes that character click with them? That's going to turn into a much deeper defensiveness when the entire internet is telling them their fave sucks, and it'd only take a little of that defensiveness to start lumping some of the easier criticisms and the people who make them into the genuine "hater" category. I have more sympathy for the misguided, angry fans who want to defend their problematic fave than I do the rather more deeply misguided, equally angry fans who are really just upset about the "girl with blue hair and pronouns" but would rather not say so outright. I'm not in either of those groups and I do not want for a moment to be confused with them.

None of that bears really directly on SNW, except in that I expect there are some people who are going to be very loud about how much better SNW is than Discovery as a means to talk about Discovery, and because they're butthurt for "woke" reasons rather than "fan" reasons. I still don't want to have anything to do with those guys. I pity the kids who are demanding acknowledgement for their ham sandwich with Miracle Whip when there's this double-stacked buffalo burger with mushroom and swiss to live up to and they don't understand why everyone likes it so much better. The burger, meanwhile, does not need comparison to the sandwich to be delicious. If anything, I'd rather not be thinking about cold bologna while I'm savoring this greasy masterpiece.
 

Kup

Active member
Citizen
I know this is a character we're familiar with already, but in TWO episodes of SNW I can name each character and give you a brief description of the kind of character they are. There are people in Discovery who I still can't remember they're name or think of any notable thing they've ever done.
I’ll echo this. 4 seasons in Disco and I just recently learned that Culber and Stamets aren’t CMO/CEO? I can remember Detmer and Owe (I can’t spell her name though) and they’re probably my favorite characters.

There’s a guy named Reese, right? He serves in the bridge but I couldn’t tell you which one he is. I only remember the blonde girl because I know she used to play the blue hybrid character. But I can’t remember their names.

Disco is the Michael show. I have no beef against her being a woman or black. It’s the fact she’s infallible and somehow always the solution for the latest galactic threat. No one person is THAT important.

Uhura was the solution last night. A cadet. Not the captain. Not Spock. Not even Una. A CADET.
Disco can’t take the focus off of Michael to save its life.

Edit: To add, I don't mind the actress and I think she does a good job with what she's given. I don't agree with some of the shows decisions (I forget what episode it was recently, but she was upset over someone's actions and I literally yelled at the screen "You got your captain killed for the same thing! You have no room to talk.")

I also realized that I turned this SNW post into my personal rants against Disco, so to get it back on track, I'm in love with SNW for all of the reasons that's been stated so far. Its the Trek we need right now, the cast has amazing chemistry, and I am SO rooting for a way for Pike to survive the next 10 years. Forget canon, forget TOS, Pike is *THE* captain I'd want to serve under. And that's strong words, considering I previous would have wanted to serve under Sisko. Pike is just plain fun, Anson Mount is incredibly charismatic, and no one feels too pretentious to make a mistake. The ship truly looks fun to serve on, and it bring back a sense of excitement that has been missing from Trek for...gosh who knows how long.
 
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Kalidor

Administrator
Staff member
Council of Elders
Citizen
A lot of the earliest stuff people had a problem with on discovery was the the blatant disregard for pre established canon. And I'm not talking about casting choices or character arcs. I'm talking about the deliberate and almost malicious intent to disregard every aspect of the in universe aesthetics. To the point of almost being a middle finger to the existing fan base. Klingons, consoles, replicators existing, hologram communications, uniforms, history, lore, like... Every single thing you can think of they made it as different as possible almost as a middle finger to anyone who liked star trek.

Notice how far they backpedaled with snw right down to the gummy buttons on the computers and the Bluetooth communications ear pieces.

People had a LOT of reasons to dislike discovery far outside of "black wamen and gays". But those voices of genuine discourse got drowned out and diminished by being dismissed because they just "don't like diversity".
 

Cybersnark

Active member
Citizen
Uhura was the solution last night. A cadet. Not the captain. Not Spock. Not even Una. A CADET.
Actually (and I say this to agree with your point), it was a true group effort:
Uhura solved one problem, by figuring out M'hanit's control interface and lowering the shield (and thus saving Sam's life). Spock was the one who actually redirected the comet, Ortegas' flying prevented them from getting killed, and Pike managed to de-escalate and outwit the Shepherds.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
Yep.
And Spock is the one who noticed that the room was responding to Uhura's humming. It was very deliberately, Uhura's genius for language made the difference, but the universe wasn't bending over backward to make her look good.

A lot of the earliest stuff people had a problem with on discovery was the the blatant disregard for pre established canon. And I'm not talking about casting choices or character arcs. I'm talking about the deliberate and almost malicious intent to disregard every aspect of the in universe aesthetics. To the point of almost being a middle finger to the existing fan base. Klingons, consoles, replicators existing, hologram communications, uniforms, history, lore, like... Every single thing you can think of they made it as different as possible almost as a middle finger to anyone who liked star trek.

Notice how far they backpedaled with snw right down to the gummy buttons on the computers and the Bluetooth communications ear pieces.

People had a LOT of reasons to dislike discovery far outside of "black wamen and gays". But those voices of genuine discourse got drowned out and diminished by being dismissed because they just "don't like diversity".

I did compare the first two seasons of Disco to being bashed around the head and the following two to a wobbly cart and a cold sandwich for a reason. Now, personally, if we're talking about faithfulness to the source material, I'm way more bothered with all of that sobbing they retconned into Spock in S2 than all the wildly impractical Klingon ships and weapons made of Bayformer. Discovery itself has also backpedaled on all of that, starting with giving Klingons hair, then using classic props in S3, and at this point mostly following the visual design of past shows whenever material from them shows up and deliberately avoiding the Klingons to avoid breaking its own visual canon. Like I honestly wonder if the Constitution Enterprise had showed up for the first time in S4 instead of S2, whether it would have the swoopy nacelle struts that S2 gave it and SNW kept.

I don't personally put a lot of stock in the canonicity stuff. If Disco wanted to reinvent the look and update the tech, fine, I didn't have an issue with that. I obviously like the SNW approach more, mostly because I feel like it's a way more interesting set of design challenges and communicates a way more interesting environment in the final product when the tech and visual language is in conversation with another, established aesthetic framework as opposed to just being sort of sci-fi filler material. You know, this is the part where I'm still saying, accept both shows on their own terms, but in this case, the challenge that SNW is going for is way more difficult and far more impressive when they pull it off, and also they seem to be pulling it off.

So to reiterate, canonical accuracy is something I see as a choice and not an evaluative rubric or a slap in anyone's face, and I would generally not hold a lot of that against early Discovery; early Discovery also started mean and stupid, and there's a whole other layer of "a lot of reasons to hate" it; S3-4 gradually brought it around to more or less following established canon, while also removing most of the "gritty" as a bonus, and that has not automatically made it a smart show. But even the canonicity complaints that I largely disregard are still more valid than this Fandom Menace, antiwoke, outrage for clicks economy stuff from the boys who made YouTube videos complaining that new She-Ra wasn't sexy enough and rated MotU Revelation lower than War for Cybertron on IMDb.

So I've disregarded most of the discourse around Discovery because most of that discourse is goddamn poison. Or at least a very bland oatmeal cookie with surprise asbestos chips in.
 

Axaday

Member
Citizen
I love the redesigned Constitution. I might not have if I hadn't enduring 2 seasons of Discovery first, allowing the redesign to play Good Cop. But I look at that ship and I am able to say, "That IS what the original Enterprise looked like. TOS got it wrong." It sounds weird. But we've actually done it lots of times. That ship looks like a ship you would build after NX-01 and you would refit into the TMP Enterprise.

It was fun when "Trials and Tribble-Ations" joked about Klingon makeup, but that is as far as I needed it to go. I had long accepted that Klingons always looked like they do now. TOS got it wrong. It was just too difficult or expensive to do it correctly. I forgive them. I didn't need the whole genetic virus thing. But it is fine. Ok.

Discovery came along and just said, "No everyone got it wrong!" Klingons look like THIS! Their ships look like leaf piles! You should just listen to TOS with no picture because NOTHING that they did was right on screen. I can't just let it go like Copper. I wish I was so mature.

The Ferengi, Borg, and Trill were all changed after their original presentation. The Trill even visually. The reason we forgave them for those (and Klingons too! We really did forgive that long before there was an explanation) is that it was quickly clear that they changed them for a good reason that set up a platform for lots of interesting future.

What irritates me the at the very base of Discovery is that they set the show before TOS for NO DISCERNABLE REASON. Making Michael Spock's sister was stupid. There was no good reason to do it. And aside from it, there was nothing connecting it to its setting. If they wanted to do those ships and those aliens and do ALL the things they did, they were welcome to and fans would have much more broadly welcomed it too if they had just set the show in 2380 and made up a new name for the aliens that would kick off a war. When it was in pre-production the producer said it was set then to tell a story that had been mentioned in TOS but never seen and people speculated a lot about what it could be and I think it just went out the window. That producer left the show and someone else came in and they kept the effects and threw out the causes.
 

AgentOrange

Member
Citizen
Uhura was the solution last night. A cadet. Not the captain. Not Spock. Not even Una. A CADET.
Disco can’t take the focus off of Michael to save its life.

You say CADET as if Disco wasn't also constantly jerking off Tilly for 2 years
 

CrockAlley

Member
Citizen
Bold counterpoint: what irritates me about Discovery is: nothing. I just plain like that show. There is a robust main cast. Folks compare Detmer to Worf or Sulu instead of to TNG O’Brien. Those miscellaneous folks on the bridge were not meant to be the main cast. We still have Michael, Saru, Tilly, Staments, Culber, Reno, Adira, Booker, and the seasonal Ash, Lorca, Phillipa, L’Rell, Spock, Pike, etc. I have my favorites and some I don’t like, but I know them all quite well.

I don’t really care about continuity problems between shows or what Klingons look like. I don’t care if someone is chief medical officer or one rank lower. Literally doesn’t matter. They tell good stories. Especially these past two seasons.

I find that TV shows either resonate with me or they don’t. Disco is on my wavelength. So is SNW and Prodigy. I’m happy for those shows and I stay away from the ones that don’t connect with me.
 

Dake

Active member
Citizen
I'm of two minds. I do like the new Enterprise, and I agree it looks like a natural continuation of the NX-01, but that's all retroactive. The NX-01 did NOT look like a natural predecessor of the TOS Enterprise when it was introduced. That being said, the NX-01 did look like what it was: an experimental ship. That worked to me as the TOS Enterprise was the flagship of its time and the end result of all that came before it - presenting as a clean, sleek and otherwise finished whole. As I sit and look at all the Enterprises next to one another in the order in which they were conceived, you can see a clear evolution with the E really being the biggest departure. Ok yes, the D was also a departure, but they did a good job of bridging the gap with the C down the road.

I'll still buy a toy of it though if Playmates gets busy making starships.

What irritates me the at the very base of Discovery is that they set the show before TOS for NO DISCERNABLE REASON. Making Michael Spock's sister was stupid. There was no good reason to do it. And aside from it, there was nothing connecting it to its setting. If they wanted to do those ships and those aliens and do ALL the things they did, they were welcome to and fans would have much more broadly welcomed it too if they had just set the show in 2380 and made up a new name for the aliens that would kick off a war.

They could've placed it before TOS no problem, if they just made it another universe. Fans have long been accepting of alternate realities in ST. Then they really could've had free reign to tell "all new stories with your favorite characters", and it would've completely circumvented any and all issues with canon, appearance, everything.
 

Kalidor

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More "reboot" universes just clouds the issue further and makes it less special. I understand the timeline has been strained due to it being 60 or however many years ago - but that can at least be marginally explained by time travel and things we saw as viewers alter history a bit for a show that clearly had no expectation to go on beyond the 1960s.

Even the Kelvin universe acknowledges that it's a splinter from the prime timeline. I think I would be far more disappointed if they just said "different universe" the same way they do with Transformers series (for example). And I don't think I'm the only one. That's one of the good things about Doctor Who - changes are obvious and unavoidable, but they stick to the fact that it's a continuation of the original story about an old man and his police box in the junk yard.

What they should have done is what people have been wanting since Enterprise - proceed further than the TNG/DS9/VOY/Nemesis time period and show us what comes NEXT. Something that for whatever reason they've been too cowardly to do until recently. Discovery should have started in "the future". They could have given characters the same motivations and same consequences if it had been after all the stories we already knew. Imagine having the freedom to make the tech and costumes look however you want. To make the politics and status quo however you want. All because it's 100 years after Nemesis the same way TNG was 80+ years after TOS. And then saying "Nah, we want to cram all our ideas into the past where they have no place but try to explain it half assed anyway"

I bet if you showed someone season 3 of Discovery and told them it's season 1 and all the stuff they mentioned was just the backstory they'd more readily buy it right out of the gate (Dumb guy screaming warp drive out of existence not withstanding)
 

Dvandom

Active member
Citizen
Hazing newbies to the Enterprise is kinda pointless...the missions will do a much more thorough job of it than any crewmember can.

---Dave
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
I bet if you showed someone season 3 of Discovery and told them it's season 1 and all the stuff they mentioned was just the backstory they'd more readily buy it right out of the gate (Dumb guy screaming warp drive out of existence not withstanding)
That's what I did to Caboo after I'd watched it and realized she'd probably enjoy it. I'd literally pause to say "that's the doctor" or whatever the first couple of episodes. Genuinely don't feel she missed out on much, and she's way more positive about Discovery than I am. And I think the Buck Rogers time-displaced crew really is a good hook for a series set this far into the future. (You'd simplify it a bit if you were doing it on purpose, cut down on the number of plot devices necessary to explain why and how this ship and crew got time-jumped into the future in the process of saving the universe and why they have an infinite improbability warp drive. Maybe just use a black hole fight like Andromeda. Stamets, the theoretical physicist who is also the ship's meat nav computer, would also not have to ostensibly be a mycologist.)

I don't agree that Doctor Who is closely comparable or that Trek would really suffer from a reboot, mostly because Doctor Who uses continuity differently and much more loosely than Trek does. I don't know how much I care that this Spock is "really" the same "version" of the same guy as the one in the 60s show. I don't know if I can fully trick my brain into thinking that everything I'm seeing him do in SNW is from the time he was the Vulcan equivalent of young and impetuous before he was Leonard Nimoy. It lives in the same space in my head as the knowledge that Peter Capaldi is playing the "same guy" who was Tom Baker, but the reality that this is a new actor playing a character who already lives in the public consciousness never goes away for either.

So while there's doubtless a heaping helping of nostalgia at work, I don't think my feelings about SNW have a lot to do with canonicity. I'm pretty sure that I'm taken by the visual design because I'm impressed by the accomplishment and because it supports the story being told and is really nice to look at, and that I'm impressed with the stories feeling so perfectly "like Star Trek" because they're doing something I miss that Star Trek "ought to be" good at. That it's less about fitting into the old, and more about what can be brought back to life in the present. But I really could be wrong about all of that.

When it was in pre-production the producer said it was set then to tell a story that had been mentioned in TOS but never seen and people speculated a lot about what it could be and I think it just went out the window. That producer left the show and someone else came in and they kept the effects and threw out the causes.
Yeah, I still want to know why the ship looks the way it does, the real original reason for (I guess) the version in the teaser trailer with the less extreme nacelle posture and filled in saucer. Though I suppose that it comes in the same season that completely redesigned every last detail of the Klingons and their technology, so maybe that's just how Starfleet was going to look now? - but this lovely Enterprise redesign that feels so right was modeled in the next production block for the finale. I feel similarly about the Red Angel - I really want to know what it was going to have been before they fired the showrunners and made it Doctor Mommy Burnham.

It makes me think of how Voyager and Enterprise were crushed into the TNG mold to keep them a consistent product appealing to the same audience, despite their deliberately very different premises. Discovery didn't have exactly the same problem (or exactly its opposite number), but they all end up with this weird dissonance between how the show is designed and how it's played out in practice.
 

PrimalxConvoy

NOT a New Member.
Citizen
Apparently, they race-swapped one of the original characters?



And Nazi Vulcans too!

I'm surprised YouTube isn't awash with fury and that no retconned explanation hasn't already been made.
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
Supposedly, there are people who were upset about Commodore April being black. I can't confirm that, because I've only seen the responses (like editing new Commodore April into TAS in TAS style, or people pointing out that if we're going to get upset about TAS canon, the holodeck in Disco S2 had been established there too.)

Here's an interesting "it always looked like that": Now that the Constitution warp core has been retconned to have always been vertical, not just in the refit, the only horizontal one is the one in Enterprise's NX, which was based on the one in TOS. At a glance it makes sense that changing the orientation of the warp core probably isn't something you do in a refit, so like the bent nacelle struts, it's more consistent with the refit, which is itself more definitive canon than TOS. But although the NX had a horizontal warp core to match a progression that no longer exists in the rest of canon, it actually makes even more internal sense: the NX didn't have an engineering hull, and as soon as we see engineering hulls, we see vertical warp cores. Come around to DS9 and we have a new ship with no engineering hull, the Defiant, and it still has a vertical warp core ... which is explicitly called out as being a special, compact one. Continuity!
 

MrBlud

Active member
Citizen
They’ve said numerous times that the Animated show isn’t canon even if they borrow stuff like “Yesteryear” from it occasionally.

I’m also quite pleased with SNW. It really seems to be hitting all the buttons for all kinds of fans.
 

Cybersnark

Active member
Citizen
I've become more relaxed about Trek canon in the past few years (my complaints now are based on filmmaking stupidity and behind-the-scenes ass-hattery that I'd complain about on any show) --like how modern Trek has an established history of the VFX department not actually reading the dialogue in the script (like asteroids suddenly reversing course in DSC, or a "small 3-person scout craft" being depicted as a full-sized starship in SNW).

It helps that Star Trek has embraced alternate timelines almost since the beginning (TOS' "Mirror Mirror," and further underlined in TNG's "Parallels").
 

MrBlud

Active member
Citizen
I think some of it (for me at least) is just fatigue because all they ******* make any more is prequels.

Shouldn’t Pike’s crew be dressed in the Cage outfits? Probably.

It’s a more boring choice aesthetically and me being angry about it won’t change things this time just like the past 10,000 times so why get worked up about it?
 

Lobjob

Member
Citizen
Mature was a good way to put it. Discovery broke me when it comes to continuity and aesthetics and Picard just pushed me to the point where my internal bar for modern trek is just "tell stories that make sense with characters I actually get to know."

My days of getting animated over weird looking klingons and people not wearing sweaters on a starship when they should be are probably behind me. I'm not even gonna get mad with them changing or tweaking established personalities in SNW as long as they are consistent in the narrative they are telling.

Is that progress? Is that becoming more mature?
 

Copper Bezel

Revenge against God for the crime of Being.
Citizen
They’ve said numerous times that the Animated show isn’t canon even if they borrow stuff like “Yesteryear” from it occasionally.
I feel like people slept through the 90s though. Recasting random characters as black or women and occasionally even black women is just a thing that happens. "Canon" is a non sequitur. "Just make new characters" yeah in a prequel that's deliberately stocked with existing characters we'll get right on that. Anyone remember how M in 007 was a woman for a decade? The actual ****
 

Cybersnark

Active member
Citizen
Part of the pain of the Discovery redesigns for me is that it came attached to the whole Axanar fiasco, which was set around the same time period and made the much more creatively-interesting choice of treating it as a period piece.

 
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