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Prime vs Animated


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#181 Database

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:30 PM

QUOTE(Hora Hora @ May 10 2012, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
TF shows got pretty damn heavy with the Beast series and then we lost that for a long time. Now it's back and it started with Animated.




QUOTE
Hot Shot: Well, I've been better but I'll make it.

Lori: All right, Hot Shot! That's what we like to hear!

Coby: That's Hot Shot for ya! He never gives up, no matter what!

Hot Shot: Got that right. But I do have a question: where are we, anyway? And why is it so dark in here?

Coby: ... I-it's your eyes, Hot Shot.

Lori: They suffered some damage.

Hot Shot: Oh, that's no big deal. I'll just fire up my engine and run a repair program to fix the problem. *revs, fails* That's funny, I can't seem to get it going.



Then 2 seconds later its a complete non-issue becuase God decided to upgrade them into new bodies.

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#182 Cheetimus Primal

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:32 PM

Bringing the AEC series into this argument is a pretty terrible idea. I'm just going to pretend it didn't happen.
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#183 Razorsaw

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:32 PM

A better example would be Vector Prime, to be honest.

But eh. I know what road this is going to take us and I don't wanna be a part of it, so... toodles.

#184 Hecate

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:38 PM

Eh, it was a sad little scene.

And don't forget this one from Armada.


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#185 Cheetimus Primal

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:42 PM

Armada I'll allow at times but it wasn't very intense.
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#186 ▲ndrusi

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:54 PM

But did it have the arcade feel?

QUOTE(orionpax44 @ Jun 24 2012, 01:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Childrens toys? whaa the boxes seriously say ages 5+ I consider myself the plus.
QUOTE(mx-01 archon @ Sep 9 2012, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're talking to ▲ndrusi. Assume everything that he posts is snark.

#187 Hecate

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:02 PM

QUOTE(▲ndrusi @ May 11 2012, 03:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But did it have the arcade feel?


IT DOESN'T EVEN COMPARE

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#188 Walky

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:07 PM

QUOTE(Hora Hora @ May 10 2012, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
TF shows got pretty damn heavy with the Beast series and then we lost that for a long time. Now it's back and it started with Animated.




QUOTE
Hot Shot: Well, I've been better but I'll make it.

Lori: All right, Hot Shot! That's what we like to hear!

Coby: That's Hot Shot for ya! He never gives up, no matter what!

Hot Shot: Got that right. But I do have a question: where are we, anyway? And why is it so dark in here?

Coby: ... I-it's your eyes, Hot Shot.

Lori: They suffered some damage.

Hot Shot: Oh, that's no big deal. I'll just fire up my engine and run a repair program to fix the problem. *revs, fails* That's funny, I can't seem to get it going.



Mmmmm, comedy.

#189 Kalidor

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:18 PM

QUOTE(Cheetimus Primal @ May 10 2012, 12:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(NightViper @ May 10 2012, 11:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Tell us then, what do you think of Rescue Bots?

Clearly this show is meant to be held to the bellies of pregnant women.



Pretty much.

Truthfully, it doesn't blip on my radar. I watched 2 episodes, found it rather quaint and have never watched it since. So I don't really have a strong opinion about it either way.

As for the original Batman -- I suppose it just depends on the group then. When that show came on, myself and everyone I went to school with thought it was the animated show that was going to raise and set the bar for all cartoons from that point on. The smooth animation (X-Men characters had really strange movements) and subdued tone (as opposed to X-Men's bright colors) was just something we all preferred. The music, the mood and just the overall quality made that show the standard to which any cartoon in the 90s would be judged. And back then I wasn't even a big DC fan and at that point had only read Marvel.

#190 Steevy Maximus

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:38 PM

Eh, depends on what is being discussed.

Something about Animated's toys never really clicked with me, but I'm digging a lot of what Prime is doing (especially in Cyberverse).

Show-wise? I still enjoy Animated more. I think others have covered it, but it felt FRESH. Yes, we got a ton of fanwank, but with that, we got things like human villains (love em or hate em, it was nice to see the Autobots fighting someone other than the same Decepticons, or a bunch of mindless drones every week), an interesting world, and to be honest, I think Animated knocked it out of the park when it came to CHARACTERS.
No, nothing groundbreaking, but Bulkhead, after just 13 episodes, had more character than Prime Bulkhead has after 30. Optimus Prime (while treading ground Optimus Primal did 10 years before) came across as much more developed personality than Prime Optimus has (though the most interesting thing they did, wiping his memory, got reversed after only a couple episodes).
In general, Animated made the Autobots feel like individuals, with flaws and issues, which Prime, IMO, hasn't done at all. Just more of the same, almost perfect, Autobot team we got during AEC and G1.

BUT, I think Prime has SUPERB production values for a weekly cartoon, and I continue to be impressed with what they've done on a weekly basis while still maintaing a high animation standard.
But after a season and a third....I just don't feel connected to any of the characters except STarscream and Arcee.

I watched Animated every week because I enjoyed the characters and the premise. I haven't felt that with Prime, even if I like the Animation and toys better.

#191 Bass X0

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:56 PM

The Iacon File relics hunt already bores me.

There's just something about being told by the show itself that the next four episodes (one of which has been shown already) will feature the Autobot huntings for something which turns me off. Its not just Prime, the same thing happening in any show would generate the same feelings.

#192 ZacWilliam1

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:33 PM

QUOTE(Bass X0 @ May 10 2012, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Iacon File relics hunt already bores me.

There's just something about being told by the show itself that the next four episodes (one of which has been shown already) will feature the Autobot huntings for something which turns me off. Its not just Prime, the same thing happening in any show would generate the same feelings.


I think that plot could be made exciting if the things being searched for felt important and epic and like they were going to matter in changing the whole situation of the world and the war. I could see BW for instance pulling it off well. Prime just hasn't done that. I don't believe any of the artifacts are really gonna matter because they havn't up to this point and I don't really believe they're gonna lead to anything or cause anything major until the season ending "mandatory big events."


-ZacWilliam, and sadly I kinda feel nothing really major will come of that either. This show just seems stuck in it's slow motion status quo...
Ever wonder about the speed of Turbofoxes?
Or the proverbial ailerons of Titanium Moosebots?

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#193 HellCat

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 05:01 PM

I think Animated had a real heart to it but was basically screwed up by being filler. I don't think Hasbro expected the movie to do nearly as well as it did and so Animated just got oust as part of the shuffle in opening up The Hub.
I really felt that there was a wealth of lore still to be explored in that show and that the main cast were well built up. You could argue it had already been done by Beast Wars but I think saying "This is the story of how the legendary Optimus Prime became the legendary Optimus Prime" is a really good story idea for the franchise.
Of course, ironically, perhaps Animated's biggest weakness was the animation. The show just looked thrown together ultimately, which is a shame because we know at point of origin they really did care. I don't think Animated ever really had an iconic visual beyond the character designs themselves.

I actually think there's an obvious Animated influence in Prime. Things like Bulkhead and Ratchet are obvious signs. I can respect Prime since it proves the point various fans have of 'Imagine the movies without Bay'. It can be quite dry at times but it's clearly a character driven story and has offered some really fun interpretations of old ideas. I think this is certainly my favourite take on Unicron, a character who had just become an overrated joke.
My two real negatives with the show are, again, animation (the world just looks so empty) and the character of Miko. She's picked up the one character element of Animated I hated- characters learning a lesson only to forget it and learn it again. I appreciate the need to have a counter to Jack's view but the amount of times Miko nearly gets herself or others killed because of treating everything like a game just makes her incredibly annoying.

Edited by HellCat, 10 May 2012 - 05:02 PM.


#194 Moroboshi

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:33 PM

To be honest, a lot of the Animated Autobots didn't endear themselves to me. Bulkhead, for instance, I didn't find likable, even though I know I was supposed to. Bumblebee, I liked at the time, but when I compare him to other depictions of the character, I realize that I prefer the little guy who tries to make a difference to the irritating loudmouth. I preferred the Optimus Primal take on the young captain (deadpan/sarcastic) to Animated Prime, who didn't really have any standout moments for me. He was an effective manager and I liked how they gave him a somewhat dry sense of humor, but he was a little bland. I also take issue with some of the wackier and more cartoony humor, which would pull me out of the story and otherwise smart writing (I cringed at it in Beast Wars season 3 when they stepped it up, too). There's just something about Transformers in particular getting too wacky for me that I don't care for.

I really enjoy the Animated world-building, and the design aesthetic was fantastic (so the almanacs are a proud part of my library), but when 3/5 of your main crew, who happen to be the ones getting a lot of the focus, are characters you find either unmoving or actively dislike, it's tough to stay invested in the show. I dropped Animated partway through season 3.

Prowl was a pretty cool guy who had a very nice character arc, though. Ratchet's war flashbacks were also notable, but I find I prefer the dynamism Combs brings to the Prime character (and the way he crosses over from cantankerous to acidic jerk at times is more up my alley). I wouldn't mind more of a peek into Ratchet's head...I thought the guilt that he felt over not being able to help Bumblebee was pretty moving. And I like how he's one of the only ones Prime treats like a friend.

On the Animated villain side, Lugnut is an excellent creation, and I would love to see him get play in future storylines. Lockdown, same story, and crazy Blitzwing took "generic thug" and made him infinitely more entertaining. Blackarachnia, I think I prefer Airachnid being a sociopath and sadist, just unapologetic in her misdeeds to Blackarachnia's sense of having been wronged and quest for revenge/restoration. Prime Starscream wins out for me in terms of being a competent manager and I think a character we're supposed to take seriously and even feel a little sorry for. And nothing tops the menace of Prime Megatron for me; icy calm one minute taking Starscream out to the woods to shoot him and then unhinged and barking mad the next. He's scary for me in a way that Animated Megatron, for being a great Megatron, wasn't. It's the unpredictability. I honestly don't know what the dude will do and that makes him an effective threat.

So I guess I would pull Lugnut and Lockdown (and perhaps Sentinel Prime) from Animated in terms of characters I would like to see recreated in future shows, but a lot of the other guys and gals didn't do much for me and even grated. Lockdown would be a fantastic character to bring into Prime, where they really have a taboo against body mutilation and component theft.

I won't get into the discussion over whether the Prime Autobots and Decepticons are more nuanced, but I'll be darned if I don't LIKE them better as characters and consider them one of the reasons I make a point to follow the episodes each week. Sometimes there isn't a 1/1 between the complexity of a character and whether you find that character to be someone you want to follow or root for. They can spend plenty of time building up a character you dislike.

Edited by Moroboshi, 10 May 2012 - 11:38 PM.


#195 Spectre

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:05 AM

I was going to post in this thread, but then Shellspark basically said everything I think. So.

#196 BB Shockwave

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:34 AM

Back to answer the original post - Animated all they way. It's not even a proper comparison. Prime should be compared to Beast Wars, probably. In that regard, it wins over BW season 1, but loses to Seasons 2-3.

Prime is the show of good ideas and squandered opportunities, padding, over-forced 'epicness' and underused characters (seriously, how many times did Ratchet even leave the base? Does it cost more to animate him?), and deus ex machina solutions and plots. I gave it a chance, but 1 and a half seasons later I just don't care anymore. I think the main problem is the creators of this series are not as much involved in it as the creators of Animated were - and it shows. On small things like Arcee getting nothing but revenge-motivated character development (two partners killed, two Cons to kill for them)... Generally, Animated had HEART. On Prime, I only like Arcee, and I feel a pity for Starscream for the same reason I pity Tom or Wile E. Coyote, I just want the poor guy to get a break from having the worst luck of the century. Megatron is just stereotypically evil (and the creators felt the need to make him look like a shark to emphasise this), and Optimus Prime is booooooring. I can see Cullen falling asleep at the mike. In contrast, Animated Prime was a refreshing new take on the character - no, don't compare him to Primal, that guy was never a young inexperienced officier, he was a captain of a science vessel. And Megatron, well, he is the best Megatron ever - charismatic, clever, unrelenting, manipulating, and utterly convinced of his own ideals.

Also, it has perhaps the worst intros a western TF show had - when just listening to it I hear nothing else but 'epic music, epic music, epic music "chee-kaa-koo-kooh-khmmm" over and over again. Yes, we get it,. they are Transformers. Do you have to show them all transform so many times in the intro? Also, love the ending of the intro "yeah, there are Decepticons in this too! We swear!". And they top it off with WHOOOSH! producers! WHOOOSH - we are executive producers too! WHOOOSH - and series directors!

Sadly Prime is here to stay for the long run, just like Clone Wars... and I hope that like Clone Wars, it will become watcheable after a few more seasons.

Also, while others see things Prime is "hommaging" from Animated, I quite frankly see it as stealing ideas. You don't hommage a series that only ended a few years ago... Ratchet with his grumpyness and silly catchphrase is one thing, taking a spider-themed female character and making her be a 'third faction' apart from the other Cons (not for long, though as this show never heard of the word 'build-up'), or having Starscream clone himself... I'd have felt the same if Clone Wars would have used the storyline of "Holt Kezed" from the old Clone Wars. It'd not feel right.

QUOTE(Bass X0 @ May 10 2012, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Iacon File relics hunt already bores me.
There's just something about being told by the show itself that the next four episodes (one of which has been shown already) will feature the Autobot huntings for something which turns me off. Its not just Prime, the same thing happening in any show would generate the same feelings.


See, that's one of those things Animated did so much better. Season 2 was all about the hunt for the Allspark fragments, yet none of the episode WAS actually about the hunt for them - rather, they used these macguffins to kickstart various totally different plots for these episodes - Constructicons, immortal Starscream, Wreck-Gar, Slow-Mo...

Edited by BB Shockwave, 11 May 2012 - 08:56 AM.


#197 ▲ndrusi

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:41 AM

QUOTE(BB Shockwave @ May 11 2012, 09:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, it has perhaps the worst intros a western TF show had - when just listening to it I hear nothing else but 'epic music, epic music, epic music "chee-kaa-koo-kooh-khmmm" over and over again. Yes, we get it,. they are Transformers. Do you have to show them all transform so many times in the intro? Also, love the ending of the intro "yeah, there are Decepticons in this too! We swear!". And they top it off with WHOOOSH! producers! WHOOOSH - we are executive producers too! WHOOOSH - and series directors!

So, it's just the Animated intro, but with different music?

QUOTE(orionpax44 @ Jun 24 2012, 01:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Childrens toys? whaa the boxes seriously say ages 5+ I consider myself the plus.
QUOTE(mx-01 archon @ Sep 9 2012, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're talking to ▲ndrusi. Assume everything that he posts is snark.

#198 BB Shockwave

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:08 AM

The animated intro does not last this long, and just quickly flashes all the main characters in front of your eyes (Bot and Con alike). Prime even takes a break to show slow-witted kids that "see, Jack is paired with Arcee, Miko is paired with Bulkhead..." Ugh. Also, the Animated intro did not add transforming sound effects. They are really off-putting to hear so many times during an intro.

QUOTE(Code of Walky @ May 10 2012, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(LV! @ May 10 2012, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Kalidor @ May 10 2012, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
people thought it looked weird because it was far less detailed and looked nothing like past action cartoons


[citation needed]

As always in cases like this, any "evidence" is going to be anecdotal at best, but I can tell you that when BTAS came out and I was in love with it, the majority of my friends and classmates thought it looked weird and stupid and should have looked more like the totally rad comic-book-detailed Fox X-Men.


I second this. BTAS was a *groundbreaking* and *daring* art style. It didn't look like anything else that had been animated in decades. Why? Because it had the balls to render its characters in half the lines that folks were used to. And at first, everyone was aghast. Fans complained that it wasn't what cartoons should look like, that Batman should be "realistic," and that the lack of lines made it look like a dumb kiddie cartoon. Executive producers had the same complaints, and it was an uphill battle to implement! Some fans complained that it looked "too anime," because anything that doesn't look like Jonny Quest is "anime."

Of course, the reason Bruce Timm designed the show this way was so it would look good animated. Lots of lines in your character models makes it harder to animate so it looks good. The more details and curves and greebles, the grosser it's going to look when animated on an average TV animation budget. (See Fox X-Men.) Timm cut his chops drawing He-Man and G.I. Joe, and he thought it was ridiculous how anti-animation those designs were. And so as soon as he got control of a cartoon, and one on a subject he cared about, he pushed for a revolutionary look.

And it worked.

And when he got to redesign Batman again a few years later, he pushed a bit more.

Citations: The "Batman Animated" art book and "Modern Masters: Bruce Timm."


I have bought that book for a friend, and not for myself (financial reasons at the time), and now am trying hard to get it... But bookdepository is always out of stock.

Otherwise, I second this. It was really something new and groundbreaking. I am not sure how many years later did Gargoyles try the same thing, but inbetween, don't remember many shows using this style of animation.

Edited by BB Shockwave, 11 May 2012 - 09:14 AM.


#199 Kil

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:30 AM

QUOTE(BB Shockwave @ May 11 2012, 09:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, while others see things Prime is "hommaging" from Animated, I quite frankly see it as stealing ideas.



A franchise cannot "steal" from itself. When Batman fights the Joker in the cartoons, they aren't "stealing" from the comics.



#200 Kup

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:20 AM

I honestly did not expect this thread to have this many replies. I thought 1, maybe 2 pages tops......



"Someone once told me that Time is a predator that stalked us all our lives, but I'd rather believe that Time is a companion who goes with us on the journey, and reminds us to cherish every moment -- because they'll never come again."



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