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@  Telly : (23 August 2016 - 01:21 AM)

someone must think you need another set

@  OrionPax44 : (23 August 2016 - 12:08 AM)

All I keep getting is the add for the FP Stunticon set I already own

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (22 August 2016 - 11:51 PM)

A tactical shortcoming.

@  MEDdMI : (22 August 2016 - 08:54 PM)

I frequently get ones for hot Asian women. I guess they're not doing their research.

@  Bass X0 : (22 August 2016 - 03:30 PM)

Most of my targeted ads are for things I just recently bought, which seems redundant

@  BScorpinok75 : (22 August 2016 - 12:47 AM)

:o

@  Defensis Prime : (21 August 2016 - 11:15 PM)

Okay, see, this is not his fault--

@  ShadowMan024 : (21 August 2016 - 09:46 PM)

Whoa. Sugar rush...

@  ShadowMan024 : (21 August 2016 - 09:46 PM)

DON'T TALK TO ME! DON'T TALK TO ME, CRIMINAL!

@  Paladin : (21 August 2016 - 08:16 PM)

they ate the whole plate. the WHOLE Plate.

@  ShadowMan024 : (21 August 2016 - 05:35 PM)

GRANMAMA DRINK YO PRUNE JUICE

@  TheMightyMol... : (21 August 2016 - 04:05 PM)

Who?

@  tffan01 : (21 August 2016 - 03:39 PM)

Yeah they were awesome.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (21 August 2016 - 03:37 PM)

Anyone wish Maggie and Glenn from the first movie would return?

@  Cybersnark : (21 August 2016 - 03:19 PM)

And if the movies focused on Lennox and Epps (and Simmons) rather than Manic Weirdo, Fatherly Asshole, Statutory Rape Guy, and Generic Female Characters #432, #527, and #671, they'd already be far, far better movies.

@  ShadowMan024 : (21 August 2016 - 03:02 PM)

Lennox and Epps are the exact opposite of "terrible."

@  Cybersnark : (21 August 2016 - 02:47 PM)

Honestly, the movie designs look fine and are totally recognizable, the problem is how they're filmed (in close-up, shakeycam, with split-second cuts). We just need more wide shots, and a plot that focuses on the TFs as characters rather than as props for the (terrible) human characters..

@  Boomhauer : (21 August 2016 - 01:45 PM)

Yeah it's pretty obvious that the movie designs go out of their way to have parts in particular places that move around like muscles. They're going for metal aliens instead of megazords. A reboot, no matter how faithful to G1, would probably still have to try and go for a visual style that allows that kind of fluid movement.

@  cefurox : (21 August 2016 - 10:17 AM)

wew lad

@  unluckiness : (21 August 2016 - 08:48 AM)

At the very least, they make it tougher to see when parts clip through other parts

@  Fnu Aw : (21 August 2016 - 08:45 AM)

The movie designs were never about realism. They're about natural looking movement. Realistic G1 style designs would not move the way we want to see Transformers move. They'd collide with their own boxiness. The shredded metal look of the movie designs lets them flex.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (21 August 2016 - 06:18 AM)

IDW's art styles varied wildly throughout the years. And I'm not sure how "realism" is a reason to have one over any other since we don't know what shape-changing metal lifeforms really look like.

@  MEDdMI : (21 August 2016 - 05:51 AM)

I liked Eric the best, since he felt the most like a real person to me and had character growth over the series.

@  MEDdMI : (21 August 2016 - 05:50 AM)

Sort of. It was never animated, but if you scroll down to ep 28 and you can read the script for the final ep.

@  tffan01 : (21 August 2016 - 05:47 AM)

of course I'm not talking about Sunbow or Marvel, they look like people in cardboard boxes, I mean IDW, they look both interesting, realistic and also G1 enough.

@  Bass X0 : (21 August 2016 - 05:43 AM)

Did the kids in the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon ever find a way home for good?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (20 August 2016 - 11:15 PM)

Since we're talking about design styles, wasn't AHM like that?

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (20 August 2016 - 11:13 PM)

Yeah, look at IDW. All its lead writers are longstnading fans, but it's not like they've tried to wholly shoehorn Marvel or Sunbow into IDW.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (20 August 2016 - 11:10 PM)

Or even a new style that isn't quite like any of the others.

@  Pennpenn : (20 August 2016 - 11:09 PM)

Even if they simplified the designs they'd probably look more like Prime than G1.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (20 August 2016 - 10:59 PM)

Also, "they'll go to G1 because they already used over-complicated movie designs" is a bit of a false dichotomy.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (20 August 2016 - 09:45 PM)

Also, flat-nosed trucks don't look intimidatingly cool to most American audiences. Movies got to find some way to get funding.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (20 August 2016 - 08:23 PM)

When someone stands next to say, Optimus Prime's leg it would just look like there's a large blue rectangle.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (20 August 2016 - 08:21 PM)

In live-action, they would all look flat and underdetailed when they're supposed to be huge.

@  tffan01 : (20 August 2016 - 03:32 PM)

I'm 90% sure they will be using more G1-ish designs in the reboot (if there'll be such a thing of course). They already used over-complicated movie designs, they'll return to G1.

@  tffan01 : (20 August 2016 - 03:15 PM)

All I'm saying is when they reboot it, they might want to try something they never did in the screen and use G1-ish designs.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (20 August 2016 - 02:57 PM)

Why? Would a classic G1 aesthetic make money?

@  ShadowMan024 : (20 August 2016 - 02:38 PM)

I don't think that switching to G1 would "correct" anything.

@  tffan01 : (20 August 2016 - 02:22 PM)

I actually believe they would switch to G1 because I feel like the next director would try to correct 'wrongs' of the older movies.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (20 August 2016 - 02:15 PM)

Also, if they get to the point of completely rebooting the movies with an entirely different aesthetic I highly doubt they'd switch specifically to G1.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (20 August 2016 - 02:13 PM)

A design alone doesn't say anything. The designs and the setting together are what TFWiki would deliberate upon.

@  tffan01 : (20 August 2016 - 02:13 PM)

I know but a movie character would definitely gets his sub page because of the tie-ins, it would be far too long.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (20 August 2016 - 02:12 PM)

Sub-pages are not done because of new franchises; they are done for length reasons.

@  tffan01 : (20 August 2016 - 02:12 PM)

I mean if they look like this: http://www.allspark....-1471381025.jpg

@  ShadowMan024 : (20 August 2016 - 02:02 PM)

If they were in the G1 continuity (which I doubt would happen), then yes. Otherwise, a reboot would likely be separate from G1 and the current Movieverse.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (20 August 2016 - 01:49 PM)

Characters from rebooted movies would most likely get their own pages.

@  tffan01 : (20 August 2016 - 01:45 PM)

If Transformers movies ever gets rebooted and if they decide to do more G1ish designs, would TFWiki classify that Movie's Optimus or Megatron as G1 (maybe giving them sub-pages like the one for IDW Optimus) or would they give them their own pages. Just wondering.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (20 August 2016 - 12:53 PM)

Ha. How fitting that Beast Wars: Uprising implicitly repurposed the Star Convoy toy as an actual building called the Star Convoy.

@  Fnu Aw : (20 August 2016 - 10:05 AM)

At least Star Convoy has elbows.

@  Bass X0 : (20 August 2016 - 10:01 AM)

Never owned Star Convoy, but he looks like as much of a brick as the original Powermaster Optimus Prime articulation wise; minus the cab robot,


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Equestrian religion...or lack thereof


146 replies to this topic

#61 Adam G

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:09 PM

QUOTE(J4n1 @ Apr 3 2012, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok, so let me see if i got this straight.
Religion (to you) equals belief in god (i disagree, and so do many budhists).
Therefore, we must either conclude that either Celestia is not god (matter of opinion), or ponies do not believe in the existence of Celestia?

It's not a religion because it's not a religion. It's a monarchy. There's a huge difference. Not only does this "religion" not have anything to do with Gods, it also says nothing of creation, the afterlife or anything that religion actually does. It simply does not many of the actual criteria. It's only similar to religion in the aspects that aren't actually unique to religion.

QUOTE
Not all religions believe in god or gods, trying to stick to one set definition may lead to a misunderstanding of the situation here.
It was a simply explanation of why the situation at hand doesn't apply. I see you can copy and paste from Wikipedia. Good for you. How does that description apply to the question at hand?

QUOTE
. Adam, you seem to be arguing based on both A) Celestia is not a god and B) All religions must focus on a belief in some form of god or gods. You seem to be taking these points for granted, but the simple fact is that the former is debatable (please define "god" and explain how Celestia does not fit the bill?) and the latter is outright erroneous--Buddhism is a religion focused around the pursuit of enlightenment by emulation of a single human being, Shinto is the belief that everything, living, non-living and formerly-living alike, has a spirit.
Yes I understand Buddhism doesn't necessarily need to have a God. Seems like a non religious religion to me but whatever. I was giving a simple explanation, no need to pitch fork and torches me about it. I considered Buddhism but didn't want to complicate the question. Celestia was suggested as the deity, and she's not one. To suggest she is doesn't make much sense and shows a gross misunderstanding of the series. Her power is very grounded in the reality of the show, and not fundamentally different from many other unicorns other than perhaps a simple level of power.

QUOTE
Hay, technically speaking, Jedi qualifies as a religion, and it just has the Force.
Don't. Just don't.

QUOTE
Religion cannot be divided into simple atheism-vs.-monotheism-vs.-polytheism. There are ideologies and belief systems that do not require any god or gods at all. Your argument is based an a false assumption, my friend.
Whatever, you're all still wrong if you think the ponies are religious. They have nothing close to what you're describing in Shinto and Buddhist philosophies. There's nothing spiritual about their relationship with Celestia.

QUOTE
No..she was in fact wrong in the show, as evidenced by Zacora's mysticism and especially Pinkie Sense.
The single worst moment in the show. I am glad this is inconsistent with the message the show otherwise has given every time.

QUOTE
And the Pinkie sense simply hasn't been sufficiently analysed. Being different from what Twilight knows != unexplainable and fundamentally illogical.
Exactly. Twilight failed in her analysis of the situation. She can make mistakes like anyone.

#62 Shoggoth

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:13 PM

The very fact that all three types of magic are internally consistent and repeatable as well as the treatment of Unicorn(and Equestrian magic in general) as a science says volumes.

Twilight didn't initially think that curses like Poison Joke's mechanical effects existed. Maybe curses don't, but the actual effects of Poison Joke exposure are defined, studied and reversible.

That implies a mechanical understanding of the things in question.

Zecora knows a branch of magic completely separate from Twilights, and it is also consistent in its function.

Even Pinkie sense is consistent. Action X leads to Reaction Y and so on.

So while Twilight was prejudiced against some things outside her personal bubble of knowledge, that did not make them any less true. Heck, "You don't believe because you don't understand!" As Pinkie said.


As to the topic on religions in Equestria, it depends entirely on what you mean by that. Worship of deities, worship of a concept? That, or belief in one or the other? Belief and worship don't have to be together, nor do they need to be apart.

Equestrians obviously believe in the Princesses, though I wouldn't say they worship them. Respect on the other hoof they have in spades.

Or, maybe they are all like Orks. In it for the parties and random fun.


QUOTE
QUOTE
No..she was in fact wrong in the show, as evidenced by Zacora's mysticism and especially Pinkie Sense.
QUOTE
The single worst moment in the show. I am glad this is inconsistent with the message the show otherwise has given every time.


She was not wrong, just being stubborn in her view that there weren't other types of magic out there. It can hardly be inconsistent with the rest of the show when both Zecora's skills and Pinkie sense operate under their own set of rules. Her views were more like saying that there is no such thing as a number system with fewer than 10 numbers (Then you get base 8 and stuff like that). Wrong, but out of ignorance.

Edited by Shoggoth, 03 April 2012 - 06:26 PM.


#63 J4n1

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:21 PM

QUOTE(Adam @ Apr 4 2012, 01:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(J4n1 @ Apr 3 2012, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok, so let me see if i got this straight.
Religion (to you) equals belief in god (i disagree, and so do many budhists).
Therefore, we must either conclude that either Celestia is not god (matter of opinion), or ponies do not believe in the existence of Celestia?

It's not a religion because it's not a religion. It's a monarchy. There's a huge difference. Not only does this "religion" not have anything to do with Gods, it also says nothing of creation, the afterlife or anything that religion actually does. It simply does not many of the actual criteria. It's only similar to religion in the aspects that aren't actually unique to religion.

Monarchy, with immortal god-monarchs at it's helm, who every day rise and lower the sun and the moon, who's very words are punctuated by thunder and lightning if they are not carefull, with powers far beyond mere mortal ponies.
You can stomp your foot all week if you want, but that does not make you right, nor does it suddenly make religion conform to your incredibly narrow definition of it.

And you haven't answered my question, do you deny the godhood of Celestia and Luna, or do you claim that ponies do not believe they exist?

QUOTE(Adam @ Apr 4 2012, 01:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
Not all religions believe in god or gods, trying to stick to one set definition may lead to a misunderstanding of the situation here.
It was a simply explanation of why the situation at hand doesn't apply. I see you can copy and paste from Wikipedia. Good for you. How does that description apply to the question at hand?

How? Maybe in the way that it contradicts your claim religion has only one small, narrow, set of definitions, and must include gods.
So no need to be snide about someone actually bringing something to the table instead of just going "no, just because".

Also, about the Pinkie sense & Zecora issue.
There has been nothing shown that contradicts Twilights stated claim that magic is predictable.
Zecora does not use magic, she uses herbal remedies (super effective natural remedies), and Pinkie sense was not meant to give the aesop of "hug evidence and reason", but "believe your friends", they bungled that one to insane degree, but they never stated that there could be no explanation, just that we don't have one, now (really, i was dissapointed they did not make any references later about Twilight doing further studies about it).
And even if Twilight was later prooved wrong about single issue, that does not invalidate the claim, it simply means Twilight was wrong, and needs to make a note about it, and study/do research more.

#64 Cabooceratops

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:12 AM

It is never established in canon that the princesses are deitic in nature.

It might be implied, but it's never stated.

#65 MyLittleEmpath

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:37 AM

QUOTE(Cabooceratops @ Apr 3 2012, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is never established in canon that the princesses are deitic in nature.

It might be implied, but it's never stated.

It's also never stated OR implied that they aren't.
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#66 Rezo

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:56 AM

QUOTE(MyLittleEmpath @ Apr 4 2012, 12:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Cabooceratops @ Apr 3 2012, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is never established in canon that the princesses are deitic in nature.

It might be implied, but it's never stated.

It's also never stated OR implied that they aren't.
Well...

The princess do not precede pony civilisation, indeed, they merely took over part of the job pony civilisation was doing already in the first place. Their capabilities are thus implied to not be greater than those of the unicorn-collective, they're clearly not responsible for the rise of pony civilisation in the first place, and last but not least, they're disinclined to accept worship (Well, these days, anyway).

That's actually quite a bit less than even relatively low-end pantheons in history, and arguably counts as implying they aren't deities.

As does the whole 'Calling them princesses', really.

#67 TM2-Megatron

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:29 AM

QUOTE(Rezo @ Apr 4 2012, 04:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The princess do not precede pony civilisation, indeed, they merely took over part of the job pony civilisation was doing already in the first place. Their capabilities are thus implied to not be greater than those of the unicorn-collective, they're clearly not responsible for the rise of pony civilisation in the first place, and last but not least, they're disinclined to accept worship (Well, these days, anyway).


That's true; pony society existed prior to Celestia and Luna taking the reigns, the sun and moon were handled without them, and if we can take the Hearth's Warming Eve pageant as being reasonably accurate then even some mild precursor of the brand of magic associated with the Elements of Harmony was employed by a common unicorn (Clover the Clever) before the royal sisters showed up and discovered the true Elements.

Personally, I don't hold with the idea that they're deities. Unusually powerful, sure; and immortal (or so long lived to be as good as), but not gods. At least not IMO. Since the show hasn't (and never will) say one way or the other, since I'm sure religion is a topic they'd rather avoid, people will always just choose their preferred fan speculation.

It's easy to see why Celestia and Luna would've risen to power, given their extraordinary powers and the fact they overthrew Discord. It must have been a blow to pony society, after finally overcoming the Wendigos and uniting, to have Discord show up. Even with Discord gone, without the sisters' guidance, it's entirely possible things would've devolved once again into bickering; taking generations to make the same progress they'd already achieved before. So it isn't as if they could've just shown up, beaten Discord, and then hit the road again. All the ponies would no doubt have been eager to have them lead.

If there is a religion (or perhaps multiple religions) in Equestria, I don't think they'd need to revolve around the royal sisters. Maybe some weird, modern Equestrian equivalent to Scientology might; but I'd think it more likely that there'd be some leftover religions floating around from the days before Celestia and Luna, before Discord, and perhaps before the founding Equestria itself, when the various subspecies of pony were still divided. I think that would be more interesting than a religion revolving around Celestia.

Edited by TM2-Megatron, 04 April 2012 - 07:32 AM.


#68 J4n1

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:43 AM

QUOTE(Rezo @ Apr 4 2012, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(MyLittleEmpath @ Apr 4 2012, 12:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Cabooceratops @ Apr 3 2012, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is never established in canon that the princesses are deitic in nature.

It might be implied, but it's never stated.

It's also never stated OR implied that they aren't.
Well...

The princess do not precede pony civilisation, indeed, they merely took over part of the job pony civilisation was doing already in the first place. Their capabilities are thus implied to not be greater than those of the unicorn-collective, they're clearly not responsible for the rise of pony civilisation in the first place, and last but not least, they're disinclined to accept worship (Well, these days, anyway).

That's actually quite a bit less than even relatively low-end pantheons in history, and arguably counts as implying they aren't deities.

As does the whole 'Calling them princesses', really.


None of that acutally stops them from being deities, or be considered ones (plenty of religions believe in gods younger than humankind).

However, that's fairly irrelevant to my point, which was that if we consider the princesses as gods (and calling them princesses instead of gods implies nothing in any direction), then the religion worshipping them could easily take shape completely indistinguishable from secular goverment (a point nobody has yet to actually debate, except Adam who keeps insisting that it is not, and cannot be, religion, because he says so).

Also, just because they are not gods, does not mean they could not be considered such (or nearest equivelant thereof) by the ponies, and just because they are gods, does not mean ponies might not think of them as such.

QUOTE(TM2-Megatron @ Apr 4 2012, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's true; pony society existed prior to Celestia and Luna taking the reigns, the sun and moon were handled without them, and if we can take the Hearth's Warming Eve pageant as being reasonably accurate then even some mild precursor of the brand of magic associated with the Elements of Harmony was employed by a common unicorn (Clover the Clever) before the royal sisters showed up and discovered the true Elements.

Personally, I don't hold with the idea that they're deities. Unusually powerful, sure; and immortal (or so long lived to be as good as), but not gods. At least not IMO. Since the show hasn't (and never will) say one way or the other, since I'm sure religion is a topic they'd rather avoid, people will always just choose their preferred fan speculation.

It's easy to see why Celestia and Luna would've risen to power, given their extraordinary powers and the fact they overthrew Discord. It must have been a blow to pony society, after finally overcoming the Wendigos and uniting, to have Discord show up. Even with Discord gone, without the sisters' guidance, it's entirely possible things would've devolved once again into bickering; taking generations to make the same progress they'd already achieved before. So it isn't as if they could've just shown up, beaten Discord, and then hit the road again. All the ponies would no doubt have been eager to have them lead.

If there is a religion (or perhaps multiple religions) in Equestria, I don't think they'd need to revolve around the royal sisters. Maybe some weird, modern Equestrian equivalent to Scientology might; but I'd think it more likely that there'd be some leftover religions floating around from the days before Celestia and Luna, before Discord, and perhaps before the founding Equestria itself, when the various subspecies of pony were still divided. I think that would be more interesting than a religion revolving around Celestia.

All good and reasonable points.
Yet, the possible divinity of the two princesses, is largely a matter of opinion for now (almost certainly the devs do not think of them as such, or atleast will avoid making any such claims to avoid controversy, so all of this shall remain nothing but amusing fanon), and largely depends on ones definition of what makes a god (i don't really have one, but i've read enough fantasy, as well as different mythologies, to have a very wide tolerance on what constitutes a god in a work of fiction).

#69 Adam G

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE(J4n1 @ Apr 3 2012, 11:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Monarchy, with immortal god-monarchs at it's helm, who every day rise and lower the sun and the moon, who's very words are punctuated by thunder and lightning if they are not carefull, with powers far beyond mere mortal ponies.
Are they immortal? What's the lifespan of the average pony? A being like dischord seems much more God like. I don't think any fit the bill.

QUOTE
You can stomp your foot all week if you want, but that does not make you right,
Stomping my foot doesn't make me right. Being right makes me right.

QUOTE
nor does it suddenly make religion conform to your incredibly narrow definition of it.
Don't pretend I haven't accepted that my original assessment was over simplified, something I was well aware of when I posted it. Stop having such a narrow view of what I'm saying.

QUOTE
And you haven't answered my question, do you deny the godhood of Celestia and Luna,
I deny the Godhood of Celestia and Luna. I have made that quite clear.

QUOTE
or do you claim that ponies do not believe they exist?
What a stupid statement. No one would say this.

QUOTE
How? Maybe in the way that it contradicts your claim religion has only one small, narrow, set of definitions, and must include gods.
So no need to be snide about someone actually bringing something to the table instead of just going "no, just because".
You're not saying anything. I asked how the Wikipedia explanation of religion applied where mine did not. Since you're trying to make the point that Celestia and Luna are Gods, your issues with my simple explanation of religion are irrelevant, as you are trying to argue they fit into that simple explanation.

QUOTE
It's also never stated OR implied that they aren't.
I am a God. It never been stated OR implied that I am not. Spike is a God. It has never been stated OR implied that he's not. Derpy is a God. It has never been stated OR implied that she's not. I could go on...

QUOTE
However, that's fairly irrelevant to my point, which was that if we consider the princesses as gods (and calling them princesses instead of gods implies nothing in any direction), then the religion worshipping them could easily take shape completely indistinguishable from secular goverment
Except that there's no religion, no worship, nothing they do has anything in common with most religions, they're not divine and not Gods. Other than that, it fits really well.

QUOTE
(a point nobody has yet to actually debate, except Adam who keeps insisting that it is not, and cannot be, religion, because he says so).
I've given many reasons. You haven't defended your point at all.

QUOTE
Also, just because they are not gods, does not mean they could not be considered such (or nearest equivelant thereof) by the ponies, and just because they are gods, does not mean ponies might not think of them as such.
But they aren't considered Gods by the ponies.

One can argue that school is the same as a job because of many similarities, but if you don't get paid to go to school, it's not a job. You seem to be doing this. Drawing parallels on everything but the actual relevant point of what would make it a religion.

QUOTE
Yet, the possible divinity of the two princesses, is largely a matter of opinion for now
Something being a God isn't really a matter of opinion. Though one can have a religion simply by believing someone is a God. This does not seem to be a view anyone in the My Little Pony universe shares. You say the name Princess doesn't matter. Doesn't it? It's the name their subjects call them. Clearly they view them as Princesses, not Gods, so by your own logic, it is not a religion.

#70 Cabooceratops

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:12 AM

Who would've thought that a religion thread outside PnR would end up going so well?



(Not that I don't appreciate Dvandom's original intention...)

Edited by Cabooceratops, 04 April 2012 - 08:13 AM.


#71 Adam G

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:04 AM

QUOTE(Cabooceratops @ Apr 4 2012, 09:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Who would've thought that a religion thread outside PnR would end up going so well?

I don't think the forum matters much. Maybe in Mayhem a religion thread would do better...

#72 Shoggoth

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:45 PM

All things considered, it has been rather civil and we have hashed out a couple of points. These days however people associate conflicting views(Especially ones that make them uncomfortable[religion/politics/etc]) being discussed with flamewars. That's not a failing of the discussions themselves however.

#73 MyLittleEmpath

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:51 PM

I'll admit, though, that I am a little bit disappointed. When I saw a religion thread pop up, I was expecting at least one jihad to be declared over something before the thread lived out its life...
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#74 MyLittleEmpath

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:21 PM

QUOTE(Adam @ Apr 4 2012, 06:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
It's also never stated OR implied that they aren't.
I am a God. It never been stated OR implied that I am not. Spike is a God. It has never been stated OR implied that he's not. Derpy is a God. It has never been stated OR implied that she's not. I could go on...

You are a human being and there are many more of your kind. We know the limits of your power and benevolence, and that they are not infinite. Spike is a dragon and there are many more of his kind. We know the limits of his power and benevolence, and that they are not infinite. Same goes for Derpy. And every other living creature on the show.

Except for Celestia and Luna.

They are Alicorns and we do not know that there are any more than three of their kind. Every 24 hours they each forcibly move an entire heavenly body, and there is no evidence or reason to believe that this causes either them any sort of pain, distress or fatigue. We know that moving the Sun does not require all of Celestia's power, since she raised BOTH the Sun and the Moon every day for a full millenium. Even that, we have no reason to believe would require more than even a fraction of her full power. She and her sister are the only characters we know of whose limits we couldn't possibly guess, both because said limits would have to be beyond astronomical for them to perform their daily chores, and because we've never seen either of them approach their ultimate limits (Nightmare Moon doesn't count, since we don't even know what she/it actually is/was, and thus cannot discount the idea that her/its presence somehow constricted or negated Luna's power). We don't even know whether or not they HAVE limits.
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#75 Adam G

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:57 PM

QUOTE(MyLittleEmpath @ Apr 4 2012, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Adam @ Apr 4 2012, 06:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
It's also never stated OR implied that they aren't.
I am a God. It never been stated OR implied that I am not. Spike is a God. It has never been stated OR implied that he's not. Derpy is a God. It has never been stated OR implied that she's not. I could go on...

You are a human being and there are many more of your kind. We know the limits of your power and benevolence, and that they are not infinite. Spike is a dragon and there are many more of his kind. We know the limits of his power and benevolence, and that they are not infinite. Same goes for Derpy. And every other living creature on the show.
Same goes for Celestia and Luna. Just saying it doesn't isn't changing anything.

QUOTE
They are Alicorns and we do not know that there are any more than three of their kind.

We know nothing more of their own power than we do about that of unicorns.

QUOTE
Every 24 hours they each forcibly move an entire heavenly body,
The fact is there's nothing heavenly about the sun or moon. They just happen to be in an area people used to think of as heaven, that we now know as a simple part of space.

QUOTE
and there is no evidence or reason to believe that this causes either them any sort of pain, distress or fatigue. We know that moving the Sun does not require all of Celestia's power, since she raised BOTH the Sun and the Moon every day for a full millenium. Even that, we have no reason to believe would require more than even a fraction of her full power. She and her sister are the only characters we know of whose limits we couldn't possibly guess, both because said limits would have to be beyond astronomical for them to perform their daily chores, and because we've never seen either of them approach their ultimate limits (Nightmare Moon doesn't count, since we don't even know what she/it actually is/was, and thus cannot discount the idea that her/its presence somehow constricted or negated Luna's power). We don't even know whether or not they HAVE limits.
Why does a level of power required to move a planet matter at all? Is the Enterprise a God because it can move things with it's tractor beam? This has no relevance. The residents of Ponyville change the seasons. The Princesses control day and night. There's no fundamental difference aside from maybe scale, which does not explain the difference between mortal and God.

#76 MyLittleEmpath

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:14 AM

QUOTE(Adam @ Apr 4 2012, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
and there is no evidence or reason to believe that this causes either them any sort of pain, distress or fatigue. We know that moving the Sun does not require all of Celestia's power, since she raised BOTH the Sun and the Moon every day for a full millenium. Even that, we have no reason to believe would require more than even a fraction of her full power. She and her sister are the only characters we know of whose limits we couldn't possibly guess, both because said limits would have to be beyond astronomical for them to perform their daily chores, and because we've never seen either of them approach their ultimate limits (Nightmare Moon doesn't count, since we don't even know what she/it actually is/was, and thus cannot discount the idea that her/its presence somehow constricted or negated Luna's power). We don't even know whether or not they HAVE limits.
Why does a level of power required to move a planet matter at all? Is the Enterprise a God because it can move things with it's tractor beam? This has no relevance. The residents of Ponyville change the seasons. The Princesses control day and night. There's no fundamental difference aside from maybe scale, which does not explain the difference between mortal and God.

A thought occurs to me. How does one define a god? And are we speaking of the polytheistic type of god, who is not infallible, whose power and abilities are not infinite, or the Judeo-Christian or Islamic God, who is perfect, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent? I suspect much of the misunderstanding here is being caused by my using the former while you are using the latter, hence your consistent capitalization of the word "god."
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#77 RC85747

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:51 AM

QUOTE(MyLittleEmpath @ Apr 4 2012, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'll admit, though, that I am a little bit disappointed. When I saw a religion thread pop up, I was expecting at least one jihad to be declared over something before the thread lived out its life...


No one in these discussions actually worships Princess Celestia. I think that explains much of the calmness right there.

#78 Adam G

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:00 AM

QUOTE(MyLittleEmpath @ Apr 5 2012, 05:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A thought occurs to me. How does one define a god? And are we speaking of the polytheistic type of god, who is not infallible, whose power and abilities are not infinite, or the Judeo-Christian or Islamic God, who is perfect, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent? I suspect much of the misunderstanding here is being caused by my using the former while you are using the latter, hence your consistent capitalization of the word "god."

I suppose a distinction could be made. I still don't think Luna and Celestia have enough in common with greek or roman gods to make the comparison valid.

Simply put, they are not worshipped, they don't speak of creation, they don't speak to the afterlife. These things are pretty consistent to almost any religion. Surely it's possible we find fringey one offs that don't have one of these, but if someone can think of one where none of these 3 exist, maybe we can start to discuss this.

#79 Rezo

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:08 AM

QUOTE(J4n1 @ Apr 4 2012, 07:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
None of that acutally stops them from being deities, or be considered ones (plenty of religions believe in gods younger than humankind).
The important point here is to find reasons why they could be considered deities. Preferably actual ones, rather than Pharaoh-deities.

QUOTE
However, that's fairly irrelevant to my point, which was that if we consider the princesses as gods (and calling them princesses instead of gods implies nothing in any direction), then the religion worshipping them could easily take shape completely indistinguishable from secular goverment (a point nobody has yet to actually debate, except Adam who keeps insisting that it is not, and cannot be, religion, because he says so).
Being called a specific title and not another one doesn't imply anything?

Well, I guess we can do away with language altogether, then. It's seemingly irrelevant.

Anyway, just to be clear here - what level of 'Deity' are we talking about? If we're just talking 'Considered a deity because of whatever - we'll call it the Ramses variant of divinity -, it certainly removes a lot of the arguments thrown about, though of course, it'd still require in-universe references concerning the Princesses being considered deities, rather than royalty, which has thus far been rather lacking, to say the least.
QUOTE
Also, just because they are not gods, does not mean they could not be considered such (or nearest equivelant thereof) by the ponies, and just because they are gods, does not mean ponies might not think of them as such.
Sure. So, have we seen ponies worshipping the princesses?

No?

Have we seen ponies doing plenty of other everyday things?

Yes.

Have we seen ponies interacting with the princess on multiple occasions, giving us a good idea of their attitude towards them?

Yes.

Well, that was easy. Fun with evidence, kids!

#80 J4n1

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:50 AM

QUOTE(Rezo @ Apr 5 2012, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(J4n1 @ Apr 4 2012, 07:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
None of that acutally stops them from being deities, or be considered ones (plenty of religions believe in gods younger than humankind).
The important point here is to find reasons why they could be considered deities. Preferably actual ones, rather than Pharaoh-deities.

They are immortal, or close enough for it to not make a difference for the regular ponies, they are far more powerfull than regualr ponies, they can raise the fricking SUN.
Enough for me to not deny their possibly godhood out of hand (also, until we define god, the whole divinity debate remains largely about personal opinions).

QUOTE(Rezo @ Apr 5 2012, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
However, that's fairly irrelevant to my point, which was that if we consider the princesses as gods (and calling them princesses instead of gods implies nothing in any direction), then the religion worshipping them could easily take shape completely indistinguishable from secular goverment (a point nobody has yet to actually debate, except Adam who keeps insisting that it is not, and cannot be, religion, because he says so).
Being called a specific title and not another one doesn't imply anything?

Well, I guess we can do away with language altogether, then. It's seemingly irrelevant.

Anyway, just to be clear here - what level of 'Deity' are we talking about? If we're just talking 'Considered a deity because of whatever - we'll call it the Ramses variant of divinity -, it certainly removes a lot of the arguments thrown about, though of course, it'd still require in-universe references concerning the Princesses being considered deities, rather than royalty, which has thus far been rather lacking, to say the least.

I assume you have not actually read the point i have been trying to make, which is, irrespective of wether or not the princesses are gods, if they were thought of as such, their worship could take a form that is identical, or near enough for it to not be noticeable to us, with a secular non religious government/nation.

Or, if you mean by the "language is irrelevant" the point i made about what they are called in the show being irrelevant on wether or not they are god, consider this, if they are gods, and want to be called princesses instead of gods, why would they not be called such?
Also, in a religion with several gods (atleast Luna and Celestia in this case, possibly others), would you refer to them as god, or with name and/or title?

QUOTE(Rezo @ Apr 5 2012, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
Also, just because they are not gods, does not mean they could not be considered such (or nearest equivelant thereof) by the ponies, and just because they are gods, does not mean ponies might not think of them as such.
Sure. So, have we seen ponies worshipping the princesses?

No?

Have we seen ponies doing plenty of other everyday things?

Yes.

Have we seen ponies interacting with the princess on multiple occasions, giving us a good idea of their attitude towards them?

Yes.

Well, that was easy. Fun with evidence, kids!

Have you actually read my point?
Which was that if the ponies consider princesses to be gods, their worship could take a form identical to, or close enough to be indistinguishable from, a secular government/nation?



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