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2.21: "Dragon Quest"


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#61 pao

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:54 AM

QUOTE(Rezo @ Mar 18 2012, 06:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Granted, I'd have expected her to make a better Dragon costume.


One could argue that it was an amazing dragon costume--Rarity found a way to produce a costume that looked like an actual dragon (Krackle) in the very short time they had. I'm sure Rarity could make a costume that looks like a more typical dragon, but not as quickly. She optimized her effort!

#62 J4n1

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:43 AM

QUOTE(Rezo @ Mar 19 2012, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(J4n1 @ Mar 18 2012, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The idea of Rainbow Dash learning to not rush in mindlesly might work, as well as she deciding to fight being not worth it.
But, neither was shown, RD has not been shown to learn not to rush in, nor was he shown to make a decision, body language, facial expression and tone of voice, showed her being afraid, which was not in character for RD, sure, ponies might be usually afraid of dragons, but RD is not most ponies, and even if she was afraid (unlikely), she would not show it.
We've seen plenty of afraid Rainbow Dash in Sonic Rainboom & Read it and Weep.

You'd also thing that almost being set on fire by a Draggon, plus her last atempt at actually fighting one backfiring quite spectacularly would've a bit of an effect on her. She is capable of learning.


And, you might note, neither instance was RD being afraid of injury, pain, or death, she was afraid of failure, of not being awesome, public ridicule, if anything, RD would stay and fight, even if she was afraid, especially if she was afraid, in order to prove that she wasn't afraid.

And for your information, the last time she fought a dragon, it was a full grown giant dragon, not a few adolescents, only maybe 3 or 4 times her size, nor did it really backfire that badly (atleast anymore than her attacking the manticore or trying to capture that parasprites with a tornado), she got in one hit, the dragon got in one attack, nobody got really hurt (if anything, it would be totally in character for RD to claim it a "draw", because Fluttershy interrupted the fight).

#63 Dvandom

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:49 AM

Dash is really the only one of the four protagonists present who would be inclined to fight rather than run if running was an option. And she also probably realized it wouldn't look cool to beat up on kids, even if they WERE dragons.

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#64 BB Shockwave

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:00 AM

Wow, lot of hurt feelings over this episode. I did not have any such problems.

I mean...we saw MLP DRAGONS!!! TONS of them! Some amazing and some very funny designs. Plus, another donkey, and phoenixes (or is it phoenices...? and I have a degree in latin...icon-hotrod.gif ) I should have enough reference material to draw MLP Tiamat now. icon-fire.gif

Plus the episode had a good moral. You are who you are, not where you come from. You make your own friends and choices. Spike certainly did not dare to talk to the old dragons, and we saw in two previous episodes how elder dragons (kinda like in D&D or well, any RPG) tend to be loners who don't like company - even here they were shown fighting amongst themselves when some bumped into others. Makes sense he hang out with the "teenagers" ('young adults' in D&D terms perhaps? they were certainly older then Spike) who, well, acted like teenagers.

Oh and now Spike has a pet too.

And Fluttershy is of course, still afraid of dragons. This was quite evident in the episode where Spike grew up to be an adult dragon, which Don East conveniently forgot. Just because she faced her fears in a situation where her friends were in peril, doesn't mean she will never be afraid of such creatures again. Remember, she is brave because she can overcome her fear of scary things when others are threatened - see Stare Master too. That was not the case here. Same with me - I used to be deathly afraid of spiders, so being a zoologist, I thought a bit and enrolled in an Arachnology class. Where I got to learn all about them, how most of them are totally harmless and can't even puncture your skin, and how some are even adorable (cue jumping spiders). Oh, we also got to touch them. A lot. So, I am no longer afraid of them... that doesn't mean though, that I welcome them in my home or I keep them as pets, or go to conventions about spiders (Arachnocons, I guess). icon-arcee.gif

The two lines that cracked me up in this episode, though, were hilarious.

-"We will show you what ponies do when faced with the likes of you! ..... RUUUUN!!!" icon-fire.gif

- "Naah, he's probably Crackle's cousin." (cut to Derpy's dragon version... icon-fire.gif )

Edited by BB Shockwave, 19 March 2012 - 11:14 AM.

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#65 J4n1

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:20 AM

QUOTE(Dvandom @ Mar 19 2012, 05:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dash is really the only one of the four protagonists present who would be inclined to fight rather than run if running was an option. And she also probably realized it wouldn't look cool to beat up on kids, even if they WERE dragons.

---Dave


Yes, none of the others would be eager (willing, if forced, but not looking forward to it) to fight, and my problem is not really the running away, but the being afraid part.

#66 Rezo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:27 AM

QUOTE(Don_East @ Mar 18 2012, 08:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Rezo @ Mar 18 2012, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for Celestia, presumably she doesn't know either?

But Spike's egg was part of an entrance exam for a school that she runs. Surely she must know something about it or at least the one in charge of the "hatch a dragon egg with magic" test.
Debatable. The egg might've been 'Rescued' like the Phoenixes' egg, which would substantially limit the information available about it.

QUOTE
QUOTE
FiM isn't a documentary about dragons.

I was just saying that they introduced to new concept but don't even bother explaining it. Again, one line of dialogue could've explained it.

Twilight: "Once every 100 years the dragons migrate to far off mountains in order to rejuvenate & to train their young."

There, I just came up with that & it would also give a reason for Spike to go on his journey. For that matter, I really don't buy that Spike is the only dragon in Equestria that doesn't have wings.
Twilight did say that the Dragon migration occurs once per generation. And we were shown where they migrate to. So, that's two out of three. What remains is the 'Why', which they could pretty obviously not know because a key point of the episode was that ponies don't exactly know a whole lot about dragons.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Twilight soothed an Ursa Minor that was simply angry about being woken up. Note the distinct lack of hard force employed by her. And Rarity kicking a Manticore in the face did noticeably little to actually stop it. Rainbow Dash didn't succeed, either. And that Manticore was in pain and lashing out at random, rather than fighting seriously.

You're dramatically overestimating the martial prowess of the mane cast. If they have to fight, they generally fight intelligently, not through brute force, and sometimes running away is a pretty smart thing to do, especially when your opponents are serious about the whole deal - which the Manticore and Ursa Minor kinda weren't.

Fine, but isn't Twilight some sort of magical prodigy?

To play the "how I would've done it" bit again, I would've had her use the teleport spell on the dragons instead. They end up back with the other dragons, crashing onto a cliffside and falling into the lava pool like Spike did earlier. Spike, Twilight, Rarity, & RD then give the phoenix egg back to its parents right as it hatches. Spike comments that everypony are where they belong but him only for the three ponies to him that he's with them regardless if he's a dragon. In his letter to Celestia, Spike would mention he hopes to meet some dragons who aren't mean someday but for now he's happy in Ponyville. Spike shouldn't have a pet or at least not a pet that's already been done.
For starters, that'd have been a significantly longer distance teleporting spell than she's used ever before. And Twilight already had problems teleporting the relatively small ponies, nevermind the rather bigger dragons.

That aside, I've mentioned earlier that I like the mane cast having to face credible threats were running away is the most sensible option, though I guess we've to chalk that one up to our pretty widely differing tastes.

Edited by Rezo, 19 March 2012 - 11:27 AM.


#67 Rezo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:31 AM

To get away from stuff like the above - I was pretty damn impressed by how many different dragons appeared, with fairly widely varying designs. Not just the ones with talking roles and closeups, but within the swarm, too (Also, I think I spotted Pete's Dragon somewhere in there. His chin, at least). The two dragons from S1 (Dragonshy & Owl's Well that Ends Well) also make an appearance at the edge of the caldera.

Hell of a lot of design work that went into them, I imagine. And all for 'Just' a few epic huge dragon swarm shots~

(It worked excellently, btw)

#68 Dvandom

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:44 AM

I don't think that was "another donkey," I think that was Cranky Doodle. It just puts this episode before CDD's arrival in Ponyville, during the last stages of his wandering the world in search of Matilda.

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#69 Fero McPigletron

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:44 AM

Saw it. I'm a little surprised at how violent Fluttershy could be (beating down Dash) but, as with previous eps, she does have the capacity for brute force. Funny how she ran away on foot instead of flying.

Lol, I didnt notice that it was the EARTH ponies digging the hole, lol!!!

The confetti from the red carpet felt like a Pinkie thing instead of Rarity. Yeah, Rarity will never see Spike in a romantic way. She already knows what he'll look like when he grows up too.

I really think it's weird that there are no dragons books in Twilight's library. And Spike should have known that since he manages her books. Where's Owlyicious?

Dash was a little rude to Spike but she also didn't want him to go. I feel that the reason for wanting Spike around was for the child labor he fulfills for free (lmao!). Really tho, he's a baby. Why did Celestia give him to Twilight as a slave (lmao!)

Cranky Doodle Donkey! Fake beard!

The costume is hilarious! More so when Crackle appeared, lol!

The teen dragons have strange designs, odd like the diamond dogs. While they picked on Spike, I really likes it that they honestly accepted him after the belly flop. It wasn't the cliche case where they needed as patsy to distract the phoenixes and left him to be attacked while they ran away with the eggs. They really honestly felt he was part of their group, even carrying him. Sure they were kinda nasty and were baby killers (yikes) but it might be their inherent nature. Ala greedy adult Spike. It can't be helped. But they still have a gang or community spirit to accept the newcomer after initiation, no hard feelings. No names btw?

The burning Phoenix fight and flight were awesome to see. The babies too. Yes, I'm hugely disappointed that Spike didn't return the egg. He kidnapped the baby and will mold him into something he's not. Pretty bad, I'd say. Possibly the parents don't care too much cuz the baby was an adult reborn from the ashes into an egg but I doubt it. What Spike did was wrong, it'd say.

I thought Celestia's letter was important too. Is that fire postal express a magic talent granted to Spike alone? The dragons weren't surprised by it really.

I kinda figure that PinkIe would have been a good companion here but Rarity had a personal stake and Dash was needed for flight muscle since Fluttershy isn't around. Plus I like the idea that she came along cuz she felt bad for teasing Spike and it was a way to atone. Very awesome that she accompanied Fluttershy in burteryfly watching too. Fluttershy running away was unfair of her.

#70 Don_East

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:52 AM

QUOTE(BB Shockwave @ Mar 19 2012, 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And Fluttershy is of course, still afraid of dragons. This was quite evident in the episode where Spike grew up to be an adult dragon, which Don East conveniently forgot.

I didn't.
QUOTE
...She was scared of the grown up Spike but it's more likely that she was scared that a dragon randomly attacked her cottage & she was both hiding & protecting her squirrels. She was still able to put aside her fears to save Rarity. If Williams wrote SoME she would've been dragged by Rainbow Dash kicking & screaming.

QUOTE(Nayuki @ Mar 18 2012, 07:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
While it's okay not to like the episode Don East (I can see it didn't meet your expectations), I found many of your critiques of it to be wrong (in my opinion), and Rezo pointed them out in his post. The episode paid close attention to continuity of older episodes and I felt fairly accurately portrayed the characters when faced with a flight of dragons.

And my reply: if it did adhere to continuity, the ponies wouldn't laugh at Spike's problem at the start lest they forget Lesson Zero's moral.

QUOTE(Nayuki @ Mar 18 2012, 07:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fluttershy is afraid of a lot of things (dragons especially), Dragonshy never removed that fear, but portrayed a key character trait of Fluttershy (one that is also shown in Stare Master). She tends to avoid her fears and conflicts unless she is backed into a corner (like when facing the dragon or the cockatrice). I like that she was more assertive about not wanting to watch the migration instead of being dragged along like she was in Dragonshy.

That's your interpretation and I find it to be wrong. We're talking about a pony who went out of her comfort zone to stop Nightmare Moon, Discord, & head out into parts unknown to help her friends. Being scared of watching dragons at a safe distance seems like a step down and I disagree with this direction.

And the assertive thing, again I find her trampling Rainbow Dash like that is OOC, the least she could've done was apologize since she's Fluttershy and she apologizes at the drop of a hat.

It's a badly written episode, a good writer wouldn't introduce concepts & not explain them, a good writer put in plot holes, a good writer would not leave a moral that can be easily misconstrued. In the end Dragon Quest is on my list of the show's worst episodes.

#71 Cybersnark

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:57 AM

QUOTE(Don_East @ Mar 19 2012, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Being scared of watching dragons at a safe distance seems like a step down and I disagree with this direction.

Not that safe a distance, as Rainbow Dash helpfully demonstrated.

#72 Rezo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:01 PM

QUOTE(Fero McPigletron @ Mar 19 2012, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The teen dragons have strange designs, odd like the diamond dogs. While they picked on Spike, I really likes it that they honestly accepted him after the belly flop. It wasn't the cliche case where they needed as patsy to distract the phoenixes and left him to be attacked while they ran away with the eggs. They really honestly felt he was part of their group, even carrying him. Sure they were kinda nasty and were baby killers (yikes) but it might be their inherent nature. Ala greedy adult Spike. It can't be helped. But they still have a gang or community spirit to accept the newcomer after initiation, no hard feelings. No names btw?
A pretty valid point~

#73 Rezo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:02 PM

QUOTE(Nayuki @ Mar 19 2012, 12:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The only one of the teenage dragons who got a name in the script to my knowledge was the red one. Garble. I kinda feel bad about posting this though... the fans love coming up with their own names for characters after all. But yeah, Crackle and Garble were the named dragons from the episode.
in b4 ponibooru screenshot~

#74 Don_East

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:07 PM

QUOTE(Rezo @ Mar 19 2012, 11:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Don_East @ Mar 18 2012, 08:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Rezo @ Mar 18 2012, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for Celestia, presumably she doesn't know either?

But Spike's egg was part of an entrance exam for a school that she runs. Surely she must know something about it or at least the one in charge of the "hatch a dragon egg with magic" test.
Debatable. The egg might've been 'Rescued' like the Phoenixes' egg, which would substantially limit the information available about it.

But the test seemed to be a regular thing in the flashback.
QUOTE(Cybersnark @ Mar 19 2012, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Don_East @ Mar 19 2012, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Being scared of watching dragons at a safe distance seems like a step down and I disagree with this direction.

Not that safe a distance, as Rainbow Dash helpfully demonstrated.

That only happens because the writers like to make RD look like an idiot now. Just saying.

#75 J4n1

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:21 PM

QUOTE(Don_East @ Mar 19 2012, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Cybersnark @ Mar 19 2012, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Don_East @ Mar 19 2012, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Being scared of watching dragons at a safe distance seems like a step down and I disagree with this direction.

Not that safe a distance, as Rainbow Dash helpfully demonstrated.

That only happens because the writers like to make RD look like an idiot now. Just saying.


Now, to be fair to writers, while Rd is not an idiot, she is arrogant (with a cause), braggard (and has lot to brag about) and a jerk (got nothing here), so occasional idiot moment is fully in character.
However, being a RD fan (Rainbow Dash is the best pony), i am constantly dissapointed that she never gets to show of her stuff.

Well, there was the Sonic rainboom, as well as the barn demolition in Lesson Zero, which were pretty awesome, but outside of that, she does not really get to show of her skills without it ending horribly

#76 Dvandom

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:21 PM

One thing that makes RD and 'Shy a good couple (in the Odd Couple sense, not the shipping sense) is that they approach the idea of a comfort zone in rather opposite ways. It takes a LOT to get 'Shy out of her rather narrow comfort zone, while Dash's comfort zone is too large to fit inside of reality.

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#77 Ford

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:12 PM

QUOTE(Nayuki @ Mar 19 2012, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The only one of the teenage dragons who got a name in the script to my knowledge was the red one. Garble. I kinda feel bad about posting this though... the fans love coming up with their own names for characters after all. But yeah, Crackle and Garble were the named dragons from the episode.


Those names are reminiscent of the names of the dragons from the old Atari game, "Adventure." (Yorgle, Grundle, and Rhindle.) I wonder if that's a coincidence or if there's some sort of connection.

#78 TM2-Megatron

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:47 PM

QUOTE(Dvandom @ Mar 19 2012, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One thing that makes RD and 'Shy a good couple (in the Odd Couple sense, not the shipping sense) is that they approach the idea of a comfort zone in rather opposite ways. It takes a LOT to get 'Shy out of her rather narrow comfort zone, while Dash's comfort zone is too large to fit inside of reality.

---Dave


That's a remake I'd like to see. Not necessarily Dash and Flutters, but just The Odd Couple with ponies. There are a number of potentially amusing combinations.



#79 pao

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:01 PM

QUOTE(Don_East @ Mar 19 2012, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Rezo @ Mar 19 2012, 11:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Don_East @ Mar 18 2012, 08:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Rezo @ Mar 18 2012, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for Celestia, presumably she doesn't know either?

But Spike's egg was part of an entrance exam for a school that she runs. Surely she must know something about it or at least the one in charge of the "hatch a dragon egg with magic" test.
Debatable. The egg might've been 'Rescued' like the Phoenixes' egg, which would substantially limit the information available about it.

But the test seemed to be a regular thing in the flashback.

There wasn't anything explicit in the flashback. I'd say it's still retconnable. Like I said, it throws my old fanon (pony-dragon symbiosis) out the window, but on the other hand it makes it clear that Spike and Twilight's relationship is special, and all part of The Plan.

#80 Fero McPigletron

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:46 PM

QUOTE(Ford @ Mar 19 2012, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Nayuki @ Mar 19 2012, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The only one of the teenage dragons who got a name in the script to my knowledge was the red one. Garble. I kinda feel bad about posting this though... the fans love coming up with their own names for characters after all. But yeah, Crackle and Garble were the named dragons from the episode.


Those names are reminiscent of the names of the dragons from the old Atari game, "Adventure." (Yorgle, Grundle, and Rhindle.) I wonder if that's a coincidence or if there's some sort of connection.


Garble! That's cool. Hmm. He's actually the most well spoken, out spoken of the dragons. I guess dragon names don't have to be correctly descriptive. Spike isn't really completely spiky.

Aaw, you didn't have to give out his name if you didn't want to icon-hotrod.gif But, cool, you confirmed the spelling of Crackle (not Krackle or Crackel or Krakle or Crakil etc).

Lol! Atari Adventure was terrifying when the dragon comes out if nowhere. I didn't know the dragons had names. I just poked them with the lance / arrow or ran away screaming.



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