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2.21: "Dragon Quest"


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#41 Don_East

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 01:55 PM

Well, now that a day has passed, let me explain why I think this episode sucks.

* I hated the cold open for three reasons:
1. It ignored the events Dragonshy & Fluttershy's development in that episode for the sake of a cheap joke. This is more insulting to the character than Luna Eclipsed Flanderizing her into a coward who's afraid to leave her house on the Halloween stand-in. Dragonshy is possibly the best single episode of the series and it pisses me off that the writers choose to ignore it. A simple reference would've fixed it but no, instead it's forgotten as if whoever wrote this isn't familiar the show & its characters. (Oh wait)
2. It's so mean spirited, Rainbow Dash being forceful I can see but Twilight too? And was Fluttershy trampling Rainbow Dash necessary? This didn't feel like My Little Pony.
3. It adds nothing to the plot except establish that there's a dragon migration. We never see Fluttershy again for the rest of the episode & after the first scene of Act 1 we don't see AJ or Pinkie for the rest of the episode.

* The potential for more world building and a look into the dragon race is shot down in flames. All we know is that there's a teenage part in the life cycle. Would've been nice to explain how they can age without hoarding stuff while talking like the Hulk.

* Why did they bring up the question of Spike's origins if they're not gonna follow-up on it? And no, don't say anything about the moral because that just raises further questions & you just can't mention an elephant in the room once and choose to ignore it for the rest of the episode. Where did they get the egg? What was the point of that test? Why didn't Twilight & Spike write to Celestia to find out?

* Why did the dragons migrate anyway? Why are they flying to a volcano? Do the wingless dragons migrate too? Are there even any wingless dragons besides Spike? Explain!

* Rarity doesn't come off as Rarity and how come we have an entire episode about Spike with Rarity in a major supporting role & not once is Spike's crush on her is mentioned?

* The climax is weak. They just ran even though Twilight once took down an Ursa Minor, Rainbow Dash is the 2nd strongest of the Mane 6, & Rarity once kicked a manticore in the face. They spent way too much time on the phoenix egg stuff to give something more satisfying.

* The moral is supposed to be about family is in the heart or some junk but it unfortunately it gives the impression that "Kids, if you're adopted by a family of a different culture, don't bother to do anything to uphold your heritage & just assimilate". I know it's unintentional but come on, no one noticed that? This is even worse than A Friend In Deed's unintentional "stalking is okay" moral.

* For that matter, I never thought I would say it when it comes to MLP but G1 did this episode better. "Spike's Search" managed to tell the same story in only 10 minutes & I was more entertained by that than this. It gave a better Spike's reason to find other dragons, he only met three dragons who were admittedly jerks too but at least they were just jerks who attack towns. And in the end, one of the humans tells Spike that just because those three were bad doesn't mean every other dragon is mean.

Williams is just not a fit for this show, her stories have a mean spirited tone to them & the characters come off as exaggerated stereotypes at best & OOC imitators to make the moral work at worst. I mean she's not a bad writer, she's responsible for possibly one of the funniest moments in SpongeBob. My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic on the other hoof requires more than comedy.

But Crackle was funny, I'll give it that. Hurricane Fluttershy will be better, the show can only go up from here. After all, Fluttershy episodes (and Rarity episodes for that matter) are always good.

#42 Dvandom

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:03 PM

There's one other factor in not wanting to fight the teenaged dragons: adults (even young adults) tend to be reluctant to put the beatdown on kids. Spike might have been genuinely scared, but the other three probably had a quick, "We could take 'em...but should we?" moment before turning tail and running.

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#43 mariomarc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:50 PM

i would like to point our twilight never actually fought the Ursas Minor, just put it to sleep
and the only reason that remotely worked was because it was a baby
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#44 Sobana

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 06:01 PM

Well, they do establish a bit of dragon society. We learn that dragon culture is based on strength and endurance. Dragons prove their worth and social standing through tests and trails. It is understandable that other races who are not familiar with dragons would view them as fierce and scary. The older dragons must of already proved their worth and won a level of respect so as not to need to continually show off their strength.

One thing of interest to me is in Dragonshy they said that one red dragon would hibernate for 100 hundred years yet the dragons migrate once every generation. I think ponies live a lot longer then they are letting on. Seeing how there is no newly hatched dragons, only teenagers to adult dragons, and how it was established that dragons are solitary creatures, it seems most likely this mass migration is a type of breeding season and the volcanoes are their spawning grounds. That could actually be the origin of Spike's egg!
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#45 Destron D-69

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 06:20 PM

I have no problem with Fluttershy not wanting to go along to watch the dragon migration.

there's over comming a phobia ..or psychological block, and then there is recklessness.

Indiana Jones can handle one snake okay - if he has to. Drop him into a Pit of them... and well that's different.

its also even more uncharacteristically odd to expect him to willfully walk into that pit of snakes for no reason at all.

and that's where we came in to the scene with Fluttershy.

Its nice that Rainbowdash put aside her 'future boredom' to go watch butterflies. Its an entirely different set of circumstances when you're asking your friend to give up her safety to go watch dragons.

Potential loss of rest of life/ 20 minutes of lackluster entertainment

I don't see Fluttershy in the wrong on that one.
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#46 Rezo

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:14 PM

QUOTE(J4n1 @ Mar 18 2012, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, i don't really even mind the not fighting, but the fact that RD was shown as being afraid, they could have simply given Twilight couple lines to tell RD to run instead of fighting (get egg/spike to safety as justification maybe?), and make RD make a rude gesture at the dragons and leave, which would be more in character imo.
People - and ponies - are supposed to be afraid of Dragons, what with the whole giant, flying, breathing fire deal.

Rainbow Dash also got singed by dragon fire in the first minutes of the episode. You'd think that after that, and the staggering ineffectiveness of her kicking a Dragon in Dragonshy - which just made the Dragon angry and attack everyone at the same time (Oh, and btw, first thing she did after the kick? Flee!) - would teach her a lesson.

Well, it did, and she opted to run. Looks like she has a brain after all.
QUOTE(Don_East @ Mar 18 2012, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1. It ignored the events Dragonshy & Fluttershy's development in that episode for the sake of a cheap joke. This is more insulting to the character than Luna Eclipsed Flanderizing her into a coward who's afraid to leave her house on the Halloween stand-in. Dragonshy is possibly the best single episode of the series and it pisses me off that the writers choose to ignore it. A simple reference would've fixed it but no, instead it's forgotten as if whoever wrote this isn't familiar the show & its characters. (Oh wait)
Dragonshy wasn't about Fluttershy learning not to fear Dragons at all. It was about overcoming her fear for the purpose of not leaving her friends alone in a life-threatening situation. And a situation that wasn't threatening not just them, but Ponyville, nay, Equestria at large. She overcame her fear when it was necessary, that doesn't mean - and shouldn't mean - that said fear was completely eliminated. Once again, not fearing Dragons at all is just plain stupid.

Dragonshy wasn't ignored - Fluttershy's Dragonphobia is referenced, after all -, Dragonshy was simply interpreted in the 'Helping out your friends is important, even if it means overcoming your fears' fashion, rather than in a 'Dragonslayer Fluttershy' fashion.

Frankly, it's the much, much, much better interpretation. If I wanted powerlevel escalating superhero animation I'd watch Dragonball Z.
QUOTE
* Why did they bring up the question of Spike's origins if they're not gonna follow-up on it? And no, don't say anything about the moral because that just raises further questions & you just can't mention an elephant in the room once and choose to ignore it for the rest of the episode. Where did they get the egg? What was the point of that test? Why didn't Twilight & Spike write to Celestia to find out?
For starters, it's a lot of material that is much better covered in multiple episodes than in one. As for Celestia, presumably she doesn't know either? She's not omniscient. If she did know it, the episode would lose its plot point. If she didn't know, asking her without getting an answer would just take thirty seconds of screentime that could be better used elsewhere. That aside, it's fairly reasonable to assume that Celestia doesn't keep such things to herself - basic information about Dragons should be available in books, and if it isn't, it's quite likely Celestia doesn't know, either. She's not a secretive creation-goddess.
QUOTE
* Why did the dragons migrate anyway? Why are they flying to a volcano? Do the wingless dragons migrate too? Are there even any wingless dragons besides Spike? Explain!
FiM isn't a documentary about dragons.
QUOTE
* Rarity doesn't come off as Rarity and how come we have an entire episode about Spike with Rarity in a major supporting role & not once is Spike's crush on her is mentioned?
What has she/ hasn't she done that 'Wasn't Rarity'? Her facial expressions and vocalisations were quite, quite Rarity, IMHO.

Granted, I'd have expected her to make a better Dragon costume.
QUOTE
* The climax is weak. They just ran even though Twilight once took down an Ursa Minor, Rainbow Dash is the 2nd strongest of the Mane 6, & Rarity once kicked a manticore in the face. They spent way too much time on the phoenix egg stuff to give something more satisfying.
Twilight soothed an Ursa Minor that was simply angry about being woken up. Note the distinct lack of hard force employed by her. And Rarity kicking a Manticore in the face did noticeably little to actually stop it. Rainbow Dash didn't succeed, either. And that Manticore was in pain and lashing out at random, rather than fighting seriously.

You're dramatically overestimating the martial prowess of the mane cast. If they have to fight, they generally fight intelligently, not through brute force, and sometimes running away is a pretty smart thing to do, especially when your opponents are serious about the whole deal - which the Manticore and Ursa Minor kinda weren't.

Edited by Rezo, 18 March 2012 - 07:15 PM.


#47 Shoggoth

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:21 PM

I think some of you forget the show only has so much time to handle the story, and that while episodes often open up tons of sidequest opportunities, there is no way to focus on all of them.

I also think that it's easy to forget how much continuity and character development has occurred between the first episode back in season one and the current one.

Fluttershy started out as someone afraid of her shadow and unable to speak up for herself; letting everyone else push her around and just going along with the flow of things.

Yet she went from that type of person to someone aware of her failings as opposed to living with them and is all the much better for it. She Learned to step up to the plate when it is truly needed, she learned to say when enough is enough and take care of herself for once. Season one in dragonshy, she could barely jump that little chasm, yet later on in Pinkie Keen she was the FIRST one to take the leap. By the finale she might have accidentally let loose some repressed hostilities for all things cuddly, but that turned out fine. Then in this episode she has finally taken great steps towards opening up to new people and being much more capable of functioning in public. Heck, hearths warming eve. Could you see the timid Fluttershy of season 1 getting up on stage of all things? I couldn't. She hated being a model enough as is. And now with the last couple of episodes she is finally starting to learn that sometimes you just have to say no and do a absolutely hilarious gutstomp on those who try too much to force you to do things you don't want to. (Which, honestly, I imagine RD would be laughing and cheering over in secret now that her oldest friend is finally standing up for herself so much. Heck, remember how Fluttershy used to have trouble even flying or lifting much? Now she has caught up to any other Pegasus in physical ability what with taking a more active role with the others.)

Next is Rainbow. She started off as a bragging showoff who honestly had just as many negative points as positives at times, yet as of the current episode has toned those negatives back and even learned some things about herself. She used to be someone who would charge in guns blazing and not give much thought to the consequences, yet to be honest it looks to me like she is learning to think things through more. She still needs help from her friends sometimes, but considering that she has started paying closer attention to what others say and even defer to the current focus when prudent, it can be somewhat hard at times to compare her to her older self.

Rarity..Rarity is one of my favorites because of how her archtype has been handled by the team. Remember back in season one how she used to be a bit of a snob who was deathly afraid of dirt and a bit of a unreasonable perfectionist? Remember the current Rarity who while still strict at her job is perfectly willing to get into fights, dunk her head in a garbage can and threaten dragons with physical harm for the sake of her friends? Can you imagine what would happen if the two met each other?...Ok, that would be funny. I like how things carry over with the little details between episodes, what with how Rarity and Sweetie used to be at each others throats half the time(or something to that extent. Sibling fights icon-waspy.gif) Yet they finally realized what they were doing to each other and took steps to fix it. It makes me think that she took that lesson to heart not just with Sweetie Belle but everyone else too, as she seems to be getting along with them much better than before in situations one would find out of her comfort zone. I will also say that as a personal observation, she would make an excellent element of greed, simply because while she is generous, that ties into her desires for everything. The difference is that she wants all the good things in life so she can give them to those close to her.

I could also talk about everyone else, but I think my hands would fall off. maybe later icon-waspy.gif

#48 Don_East

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:36 PM

QUOTE(Rezo @ Mar 18 2012, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dragonshy wasn't ignored - Fluttershy's Dragonphobia is referenced, after all -, Dragonshy was simply interpreted in the 'Helping out your friends is important, even if it means overcoming your fears' fashion, rather than in a 'Dragonslayer Fluttershy' fashion.

I doubt Williams watched Dragonshy or did any research going into writing for the show aside from the bible & the other writers' scripts that were also in development for some consistency. More likely she read the script for Secret Of My Excess. In that she was scared of the grown up Spike but it's more likely that she was scared that a dragon randomly attacked her cottage & she was both hiding & protecting her squirrels. She was still able to put aside her fears to save Rarity. If Williams wrote SoME she would've been dragged by Rainbow Dash kicking & screaming.

Overcoming a fear is a major step for a character and I'm not asking her to become a fierce dragon slayer because of Dragonshy, just some continuity. I would've even accepted this if they added an explanation.

Twilight: "But we saw you stand up to a dragon."
Fluttershy: "Yes, but not a huge group of dragons flying over Ponyville."

That way we can still see some sign of that development.

QUOTE(Rezo @ Mar 18 2012, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for Celestia, presumably she doesn't know either?

But Spike's egg was part of an entrance exam for a school that she runs. Surely she must know something about it or at least the one in charge of the "hatch a dragon egg with magic" test.

QUOTE
FiM isn't a documentary about dragons.

I was just saying that they introduced to new concept but don't even bother explaining it. Again, one line of dialogue could've explained it.

Twilight: "Once every 100 years the dragons migrate to far off mountains in order to rejuvenate & to train their young."

There, I just came up with that & it would also give a reason for Spike to go on his journey. For that matter, I really don't buy that Spike is the only dragon in Equestria that doesn't have wings.

QUOTE
What has she/ hasn't she done that 'Wasn't Rarity'? Her facial expressions and vocalisations were quite, quite Rarity, IMHO.

Yes but her lines were a bit bland, and aside from mentioning her fashion career a couple times & how she always referred to Spike as "Spikey-Wikey". She was rather un-Rarity. Also, what was the deal with her showing up at the same time as Rainbow Dash at the end of act 1?

QUOTE
Twilight soothed an Ursa Minor that was simply angry about being woken up. Note the distinct lack of hard force employed by her. And Rarity kicking a Manticore in the face did noticeably little to actually stop it. Rainbow Dash didn't succeed, either. And that Manticore was in pain and lashing out at random, rather than fighting seriously.

You're dramatically overestimating the martial prowess of the mane cast. If they have to fight, they generally fight intelligently, not through brute force, and sometimes running away is a pretty smart thing to do, especially when your opponents are serious about the whole deal - which the Manticore and Ursa Minor kinda weren't.

Fine, but isn't Twilight some sort of magical prodigy?

To play the "how I would've done it" bit again, I would've had her use the teleport spell on the dragons instead. They end up back with the other dragons, crashing onto a cliffside and falling into the lava pool like Spike did earlier. Spike, Twilight, Rarity, & RD then give the phoenix egg back to its parents right as it hatches. Spike comments that everypony are where they belong but him only for the three ponies to him that he's with them regardless if he's a dragon. In his letter to Celestia, Spike would mention he hopes to meet some dragons who aren't mean someday but for now he's happy in Ponyville. Spike shouldn't have a pet or at least not a pet that's already been done.

Edited by Don_East, 18 March 2012 - 08:37 PM.


#49 Sobana

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:25 PM

I like Rezo's rant, he makes a lot of sense. But, Don_East also makes sense that a few lines of explanation would of made a world of difference to the story.

I mean how in one episode they explained what they do with bruised or damaged apples but completely gloss over why are all these dragons gathering there. Rite of passage? Spawning grounds? Hibernation? For a show so renowned for it's small details, it seems very uncharacteristic of the creators to simply forgot to add that part.
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#50 mariomarc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:34 PM

perhaps they are expecting fan-fic writers to do it for them
because they do
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#51 Waspinator

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:40 PM

The dragons gather to write bad Transformer fan fiction.

#52 J4n1

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:04 PM

The idea of Rainbow Dash learning to not rush in mindlesly might work, as well as she deciding to fight being not worth it.
But, neither was shown, RD has not been shown to learn not to rush in, nor was he shown to make a decision, body language, facial expression and tone of voice, showed her being afraid, which was not in character for RD, sure, ponies might be usually afraid of dragons, but RD is not most ponies, and even if she was afraid (unlikely), she would not show it.

QUOTE(Waspinator @ Mar 19 2012, 05:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The dragons gather to write bad Transformer fan fiction.

As good an explanation as any.

#53 stonecutter

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:20 PM

QUOTE(Waspinator @ Mar 18 2012, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The dragons gather to write bad Transformer fan fiction.

They obviously gather to discuss and appreciate Twilight Sparkle's fan fiction.
"I'll tell everyone about your Discord fanfic!"
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#54 spikeriley

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:57 PM

How long until Square Enix files a lawsuit for copyright infringement forcing The Hub to change the episode title?

Hermie says that every Christmas light before Thanksgiving makes him kill a baby reindeer.  Please, think of the baby reindeer and have a safe and Happy Holidays.


#55 mariomarc

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:59 AM

QUOTE(spikeriley @ Mar 18 2012, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How long until Square Enix files a lawsuit for copyright infringement forcing The Hub to change the episode title?

or someone hacks the game to replace sprites with ponies?
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#56 Nutjob R/T

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:00 AM

QUOTE(stonecutter @ Mar 19 2012, 01:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Waspinator @ Mar 18 2012, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The dragons gather to write bad Transformer fan fiction.

They obviously gather to discuss and appreciate Twilight Sparkle's fan fiction.


QUOTE(ChessPieceFace @ Mar 28 2013, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You won't be the killjoy, we will. We will kill the absolute jive out of that joy.

#57 Rezo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:39 AM

QUOTE(J4n1 @ Mar 18 2012, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The idea of Rainbow Dash learning to not rush in mindlesly might work, as well as she deciding to fight being not worth it.
But, neither was shown, RD has not been shown to learn not to rush in, nor was he shown to make a decision, body language, facial expression and tone of voice, showed her being afraid, which was not in character for RD, sure, ponies might be usually afraid of dragons, but RD is not most ponies, and even if she was afraid (unlikely), she would not show it.
We've seen plenty of afraid Rainbow Dash in Sonic Rainboom & Read it and Weep.

You'd also thing that almost being set on fire by a Draggon, plus her last atempt at actually fighting one backfiring quite spectacularly would've a bit of an effect on her. She is capable of learning.

#58 Waspinator

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:40 AM

After she kicked that one dragon in the face and almost was killed, she was really afraid of a fake dragon roar later in the episode. So yeah, she lost some fearlessness. As she should. I mean, we are talking about giant killer dragons. It's a wonder they don't rule the world, Crackle aside.



#59 Nutjob R/T

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:41 AM

Last frame seems to sum up Blueblood in a nutshell.

Almost a shame, what with how I'm writing up his ancestor.
QUOTE(ChessPieceFace @ Mar 28 2013, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You won't be the killjoy, we will. We will kill the absolute jive out of that joy.

#60 Cybersnark

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:45 AM

I think it could be significant that there were no baby dragons (Spike's age cohort) in the migration. Perhaps the dragons Spike's age aren't included; they remain in their nests while the adolescents and unattached adults gather at the caldera.

And now I wanna see Krackle interacting with Gummy. They seem like they'd get along.

QUOTE(Rezo @ Mar 18 2012, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, I'm assuming that ponies acquire dragon eggs just like dragons acquire phoenix eggs <_<

This is what I assume. Once upon a time, Celestia was forced to "relocate" a dragon nest that was too near Equestria. The dragons fled, but one egg remained.

And yeah, I was hoping for more of a payoff when Twilight, Dash, and Rarity revealed themselves. Not a fight per se, but maybe just Spike pointing out that his friends included a genius magical prodigy who hatched him and is the Princess' personal apprentice, the fastest Pegasus alive and the inventor of the Sonic Rainboom, and a Unicorn whose special talent includes being able to find rare and valuable diamonds (y'know, the stuff dragons eat).

It's not that he's a Pony-lover, he's just from a better class than those punks.

Edited by Cybersnark, 19 March 2012 - 07:46 AM.




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