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#1 Cheetimus Primal

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:30 PM

I might be opening a bag of worms here but hopefully people can remain cordial toward one another.

I just thought it might be nice to have a discussion on the subject. For those that suffer from it, those that have people close to them effected by it and those that simply don't understand it.

This is a mental disease I know all too well. I've suffered from it for a very long time. There was a time where I had it in check but I lost that control. Until rather recently it had me in it's grip and allowed me to ruin a lot of my own life. Rather than use it as an excuse however I decided improve myself, learn from my mistakes and fight this disease with everything I have in me.

One thing that helps a ton with something like this is talking with someone, anyone, that understands how it feels. The way it weighs you down, keeping you from being productive in any way. Keeping you from being you. It's difficult for others to understand when they have never truly felt it.

I know I'm in a good place now. Hell, I'm in a great place. I like ME for the first time in a lot of years. I'm happy with myself and I know who I am. Through this I've found myself in the best, most productive and all around satisfying relationship I've ever been in. It took a long time but I managed to fight this disease and better myself through it. Now I'd like to help others if possible.

So, if anyone is comfortable, feel free to share stories or feelings. Or ask questions of others. Understanding is a pretty crucial step in dealing with this. And when I say deal with it I mean dealing it the emotions yourself or dealing with the repercussions or even dealing with loved ones that are going through it themselves.
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#2 CORVUS

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:52 PM

Good thread Cheets. Its definitely a topic worthy of discussion.

I've fought knowingly with depression for almost a decade now, and unknowingly I've battled it far longer. Mine is mostly Seasonal Affective Disorder which can result in full-blown, diagnosed clinical depression. I was finally diagnosed back in 2003 after several months of degenerating emotional control and suicidal thoughts that eventually led to a near psychotic-break. At that, probably the lowest point in my life, I realized I needed help and sought the treatment I'd needed for a long time.

Its been a long road to better management of my emotional states, but I have come a very long way, something to which my wife can attest. Her love, patience, and rationality has been a great source of support to me over the years and she's helped me to find the inner-strength I needed to make positive changes.

Medication-wise, I take Bupropion (aka 'Wellbutrin') every day, and have done so for several years. It really helps me manage better, without any real side-effects.

Transformers is a brand that really has something for everyone. We are a darn lucky fandom.


#3 Evil Zoe

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:41 AM

I've been fighting depression for most of my life. I started getting treatment for it in 2003, however, at the insistence of my then boss.

Over the years we've tried all sorts of medications...come to find out I'm BIPOLAR. Spent another couple of years taking different combinations of drugs trying to get me to a point where I wasn't completely paralyzed by my brain or pretty manic. We finally hit on a cocktail that works better than anything else has, but I HAVE to take my meds...absolutely HAVE to HAVE them or I can't function at all.

This makes being unemployed pretty damned tough. Got a little medical assistance from the state before they cut off adults with no dependent children and only took half my daily doses in order to squirrel away some for times when I can't afford them.

I'm in a bad place...I can function sometimes. I can't get a job that doesn't have medical and those are few and far between. Because of my manic episodes, I've got a few dings on my record making background searches a bit of an obstacle course to get through and making employers far less likely to hire me.

It's like I'm sort of able to work but sort of not, at least not badly enough to qualify for SSI but too bad to actually GET HIRED.

So, I'm trying to teach myself how to do everything there is to do with graphic design, programming, animation....whatever I need to do to make money on my computer. I get a few bucks here and there but it's by no means an ideal earning situation.


There. I've droned on enough. I won't go into my AGE becoming a factor, too....lol


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#4 Galenraff

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:43 AM

It may be useful to note that there's a difference (though they're definitely interrelated) between the psychological depression and physiological depression. Psychiatrists and medical doctors can and should be used to narrow down what the root causes are, and whether it's in your thoughts or in your brain chemistry. Like I said, they're related and one can easily feed the other, but seeing Cheets not mentioning medication and Corvus mentioning it made me think of this. Not everyone really makes the distinction, especially if they've not had close or personal contact with people who've been clinically depressed.

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#5 Zek

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:46 AM

I've been known to have a week or two every now and then where I just feel so down, and it's just so bizarre as I'm such an upbeat person, and nothing changes to make me feel that way, it just happens. I know that's not really real depression, but it's as close as I've gotten to it.

I usually just wait it out, something will happen to brighten me back up, or I'll just get so fed up with feeling that way, that it'll just stop.

#6 Evil Zoe

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:53 AM

Yeah, mine was WAY different than just being down sometimes. Mine is definitely a disorder that requires meds.

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#7 Zek

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:54 AM

S'why I said mine wasn't real depression, just the thing that's as close as I've got. As such I will not complain anymore than anyone else on here, no will I claim mine to be worse, as that's simply not true.

What I've had sucks, that's really all I can say.

#8 Cheetimus Primal

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:09 AM

QUOTE(Galenraff @ Mar 10 2012, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It may be useful to note that there's a difference (though they're definitely interrelated) between the psychological depression and physiological depression. Psychiatrists and medical doctors can and should be used to narrow down what the root causes are, and whether it's in your thoughts or in your brain chemistry. Like I said, they're related and one can easily feed the other, but seeing Cheets not mentioning medication and Corvus mentioning it made me think of this. Not everyone really makes the distinction, especially if they've not had close or personal contact with people who've been clinically depressed.

I did feel that I neglected to bring that up.

My depression is a bit of both, this I've known since I was quite young. I won't get into details but some of the reactions I had to medication when I was young made me very wary of taking anything ever again. I learned to control it without and by the end of High School things were great.
Not long ago things were so bad that I thought I'd finally give in and seek that road but when I started down that path things started to come together for me.

I fought and continue to fight every day but it only gets easier and I feel great for it.
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#9 The Doctor Who

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:43 AM

Hm. Well, while I'm not diagnosed with a particular depression-related disorder... there's no secret among my friends that I am... moody. It's something I have struggled to control all my life. As a child I was prone to strong and sudden mood swings and was sometimes very hard to get along with because my form of depression can be a very angry one. I'm the depressed guy who gets resentful and bitter. As I've gotten older, it's become easier to manage, as I learn to recognize the signs and be conscious of my mood-state. Still... it doesn't stop them from happening, just allows me to deal with it better.

They're mostly triggered swings. Sometimes life-related stress... sometimes it's obvious things, like when my father passed away or just the average things that can make a person feel bad.

The worst though are the random things. I suffer from an odd sort of mental state where things... unpleasant things will sometimes just pop into my mind. No particular reason that I can find... just suddenly these terrible ideas or thoughts appear in my head and I can't shake them no matter what. They eventually pass, but there's no real way to actively fight them - they must pass out of my mind in their own time. Thoughts of death, pain and suffering, fear, hopelessness and despair. It doesn't happen very often, but when it does, it's like this sort of oppressive cloud of anxiety and/or guilt that nags incessantly at my mind and I have a very vivid and visual imagination so it winds up playing out in scenes and sounds and thoughts.

Sometimes it's a sudden and irrational fear of death, like suddenly I can feel time passing, slipping by and that if I closed my eyes I could open them again and be an old man with few days left. Sometimes it's images of violence and suffering that appear and drive me to feel deeply sad and remorseful, almost always revolving around people or things I care about... but even sometimes it's random things. To this day I am haunted by recurring images of a kitten that my mother and I saw... it was a poor, scrawny little thing with an injured tail. We couldn't take it in, but we left it a bit of milk to help it survive. I don't think we ever saw it but that one time and it as almost a decade and a half ago, but it still sits there on the verge of my memory and sometimes it doesn't take but a random sad or plaintive thought to bring it back and almost cripple me in remorse. It can be nearly crippling at times... especially when it's vague. Specific things I can fight with distraction, logic and reason, but the vague emotional shifts, unconnected and unreasoned are nearly impossible to fight. Sensations of loneliness and isolation and worthlessness with no real reason.

Even right now, just talking about these things sends small tremors through my mind... talking about the kitten particularly causes me to twinge with sadness.

I cope with my moods with entertainment and distraction. I read, I write, I draw, I collect, I photograph, I watch fun things and look for jokes in everything, because it helps offset the other side, because sometimes, if I'm surrounded with joy, then the times when I feel awful can be mitigated, drowned out by reminders of all the good things, all the reasons why these irrational feelings are just that: Irrational. And irrelevant.

I... don't know if that really fits this topic? I think it's a form of depression and anxiety. I've never been professionally diagnosed because I don't want to be medicated. Of all the things in my life, I don't want to be medicated. As long as I can manage myself, I want to do that... medication is complicated and has side-effects. Watching Raocow on youtube is easy and has few side effects, other than to make me smile. I can come here, post silly things in Mayhem or joke about in other topics, play Minecraft, listen to music or a million other things that can lift my mood without the terrifying side effects of medication. As long as that works, I'd rather do that.

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#10 Evil Zoe

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:13 AM

Well, I have to say that if you're having those sudden negative thoughts out of nowhere and you can't control them, that's a pretty good indicator of a depressive disorder that could require medication to eradicate.

By the way, a good medication is one that works to make you feel normal and not suffering from obvious side effects, not one that makes you feel like you're on drugs. Unless, of course, we're talking about pain killers which is a whole 'nuther subject (oohhh, yeahhhhh w00t!)

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#11 Axaday

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 05:33 AM

For some reason, everyone agrees that it's normal for people whose eyes don't focus correctly to wear extra lenses around, but we still get creeped out by someone who doesn't generate neuro-transmitters properly taking medicine for it. Like they aren't both just physical defects that modern science can fix.

#12 CORVUS

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

Its because there is still a stigma attached to mental illness and treatment. About the only "mental disorder" that I can think of that has gotten mainstream acceptance is ADHD, and to a degree its become accepted to the point of ridiculousness.

Transformers is a brand that really has something for everyone. We are a darn lucky fandom.


#13 Galenraff

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 11:58 AM

Regarding the negative thoughts, as Zoe said it's possible that it's a sign that medication might be helpful, but also I'll point out that it's one of those things that happens to people more often than is generally discussed. It may not be as strange or abnormal as you think (again, depending on the severity).

Have you ever read "A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius" by Dave Eggers? Part of what makes the book interesting is that he's so upfront with those sorts of thoughts.

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#14 newsy891

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:33 PM

QUOTE(Axaday @ Mar 10 2012, 04:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
For some reason, everyone agrees that it's normal for people whose eyes don't focus correctly to wear extra lenses around, but we still get creeped out by someone who doesn't generate neuro-transmitters properly taking medicine for it. Like they aren't both just physical defects that modern science can fix.

Thank you. This is one of the best ways I've ever heard someone explain the ridiculousness of the stigma around mental illness. The other best way I ever heard it explained was by Jan Dravecky, the wife of a former major-league pitcher who lost his throwing arm to cancer, and who herself was battling depression at the same time her husband was fighting the recurrence of his disease: "The brain is a part of the body, and it can get sick just like a heart or a liver can."

Cheets, I'm glad you're in a good place now, and I so appreciate you making this thread and everyone else who's commented so far.

I've dealt with both depression and anxiety for years. An old counselor told it to me this way - that I'm like Charlie Brown with the little raincloud that follows him around. I can see good things, I can enjoy things most of the time, I can go to work and function and even come across as relentlessly positive when I'm with my clients - but I can't totally escape the dread, paranoia, expectation of a bad outcome, even on the sunniest of days when the only rain is that little personal raincloud over my head. And when it's truly bad, when there's stuff going on that would make anyone feel sad or worried or some other form of upset, I get a torrential downpour in my personal raincloud. Or a tornado - I think of a panic attack as my own personal brain-tornado.

Now take all that, the stuff that exists in my head anyway, and throw in something personally violating that should not have happened. Seeing it all in print, no wonder I've looked more like someone with PTSD and/or social anxiety over the last few months than someone with "just" depression or "just" generalized anxiety. Ugh.

To try to end it on a positive, reason number infinity that I still love it here at the 'spark even though I barely show up anymore... this was always one of those places online where I could get a reminder that I'm not alone, and that there is hope of getting better. So thanks, guys and gals.

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#15 Benbot

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:34 PM

We have a problem with mental health in this country. You don't shun someone because they have diabetes or gout, but mental health issues are so often kept in the closet. As a result, people who need help and medical intervention often don't get it and chemical imbalances are either left untreated or under-treated. It's nice to see this is starting to turn around.

#16 The Doctor Who

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:04 PM

@Cheeitmus: I realized that in all my post I didn't acknowledge your original statements, but I'm glad to hear you're doing better.

This may be opening a can of worms, but, perhaps it's also a very good thing. One of the best things for depression (in my experience) is to talk to others about it. Sometimes it helps to get the brain moving in a better direction. Plus the benefit of camaraderie, especially with a group of people like us here at the Allspark, who know each other and (apparently) care about each others well being, can't be overestimated.

QUOTE(Evil Zoe @ Mar 10 2012, 02:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, I have to say that if you're having those sudden negative thoughts out of nowhere and you can't control them, that's a pretty good indicator of a depressive disorder that could require medication to eradicate.

By the way, a good medication is one that works to make you feel normal and not suffering from obvious side effects, not one that makes you feel like you're on drugs. Unless, of course, we're talking about pain killers which is a whole 'nuther subject (oohhh, yeahhhhh w00t!)

Yeah, but the whole reason I stay away from that is that it seems like the medical industry treats medication like a game of darts. "Lets see what this one does to you. How about this one? Or maybe this one?" That's the trap I want to stay out of. Not to mention I really can't afford it. I'm not ashamed, mind you... I just want to cope with it myself, if I can. It's part of my philosophy that such things will ultimately make you stronger as a person.


QUOTE(Axaday @ Mar 10 2012, 05:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
For some reason, everyone agrees that it's normal for people whose eyes don't focus correctly to wear extra lenses around, but we still get creeped out by someone who doesn't generate neuro-transmitters properly taking medicine for it. Like they aren't both just physical defects that modern science can fix.

There's still a strange separation between mind and body that people entertain. I think it's because the brain is very complicated and poorly understood by the general populace so that the concept of chemical imbalance is something incomprehensible to them. The only reason I understand it so well is that my mother, through her own experiences with depression and the experiences of my father and his mental problems has gone out of her way to teach herself about brain chemistry in an effort to personally understand what was going wrong with them. As a result I've come to understand these things for what they are: Chemical glitches in the the way the brain processes information.

But on top of that, there is a distinct difference between eyesight and brain function. A person who is near-sighted is always near-sighted and always in a predictable way. They may need a stronger pair of glasses as they get older, but they are rarely near-sighted today and then far-sighted tomorrow. Brain chemistry by comparison is not nearly so predictable. Especially if you suffer cyclic disorders, then you may not be depressed all the time, the imbalance may not be the same today as it is tomorrow or the next day or the next week. This makes creating a reliable medication very hard and creates an image of cyclic depression as being somehow less serious. Some people don't understand that a person suffering from say... bi-polar disorder won't appear to be 'wrong' every day. In fact they might even miss half the disorder since most people don't realize that the up-swing is just as much a disorder as the down-swing. They just see this really happy, energetic person who sometimes get really depressed for no obvious reason and miss the fact that it's part of a much larger cycle.


QUOTE(^0^CORVUS^o^ @ Mar 10 2012, 09:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Its because there is still a stigma attached to mental illness and treatment. About the only "mental disorder" that I can think of that has gotten mainstream acceptance is ADHD, and to a degree its become accepted to the point of ridiculousness.

I hear that.

As someone diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder (not the hyperactive kind), I have come to feel like the popularity of it has almost had a negative effect on some of those who suffer it. Now, don't get me wrong, in all illnesses there are varied degrees of severity and I will never dismiss another persons pain... still... here I am. Dyslexic and ADD yet I scored in the 98th percentile for English comprehension and I think my posts speak for themselves. It can be overcome and sometimes I think, if the disorder is not overpowering then it should not be treated as a defect, per se. Does that mean it should be ignored? No, but there's a lot that can be done to help encourage a person to learn and overcome a challenge without treating them like they're defective. The popular image of the ADHD child is almost detrimental, because it, itself becomes a prejudice, a presumption upon what a person diagnosed with the disorder can and cannot do.

QUOTE(Galenraff @ Mar 10 2012, 11:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Regarding the negative thoughts, as Zoe said it's possible that it's a sign that medication might be helpful, but also I'll point out that it's one of those things that happens to people more often than is generally discussed. It may not be as strange or abnormal as you think (again, depending on the severity).

Have you ever read "A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius" by Dave Eggers? Part of what makes the book interesting is that he's so upfront with those sorts of thoughts.

Obviously I don't know what goes on in other peoples heads, but I'm fairly sure most people don't think about the things I do. Trust me, I'd rather not go into detail.

And if they do, it might not hit them the same way it does me. I mean, part of the problem is that sometimes things that hardly phase my friends will have a profound effect on my mood. And really that's the key to these sorts of conditions. It doesn't have to be abnormal at it's beginning. It's less the thing itself and more the effect it has upon the person. Like how a flashing screen is safe for most people, but not for certain individuals... sometimes things are fine for most people but can be triggers for certain kinds of depressive mood shifts.

And ultimately it doesn't happen often enough for me to think of it as crippling. There are people out there far worse off than I am and more in need of medical help than I will ever be.

I suppose though, we should distinguish between kinds of medical help. The kind I am wary of is the kind that requires prescription drugs and regular trips to the doctor for reevaluation. There are other options though. Things like the prescription drugs but with a milder effect. Things like thyroid, St Johns Wart, tyrosine, etc that, if you know what you are doing, can be taken to help counter the chemical imbalances if you aren't on the crippling side of things. They're entirely legal as well and available over the counter for relatively little cost. The catch is, though that you need to know why you're taking them. They aren't deadly or anything, but knowing what they are and what they do and what you're taking them for is essential to getting the right result. It also requires a good sense for self analysis, which I full admit not everyone has.

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#17 CORVUS

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:26 PM

QUOTE(The Doctor Who @ Mar 10 2012, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, but the whole reason I stay away from that is that it seems like the medical industry treats medication like a game of darts. "Lets see what this one does to you. How about this one? Or maybe this one?"

There's a reason for that. Modern Psychiatry is rather young, and the drugs used are even younger. We do NOT have a complete understanding of neuro-chemistry, not even close, and there are excellent, compelling ethical reasons why our understanding isn't further along.

Thing is even IF they get the medication right the first time, which is relatively uncommon, they then have to get the dose right too. Its nowhere near as easy as prescribing an antibiotic, a painkiller, immunizations, or corrective surgery on comparatively less-complex organs.

A good psychiatrist doesn't try you on different meds for fun: they do it because they want to try to get the right diagnosis first (which isn't always easy), and then the correct medication (or medications, which makes things much, much harder), and then the right dose.

QUOTE(The Doctor Who @ Mar 10 2012, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not to mention I really can't afford it.

This reason is quite valid.

QUOTE(The Doctor Who @ Mar 10 2012, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not ashamed, mind you... I just want to cope with it myself, if I can. It's part of my philosophy that such things will ultimately make you stronger as a person.

I'm sure that setting, surgically closing, and then casting your own compound fracture of the tibia would be an accomplishment of some sort, but it would be a dubious one at best. While your desire is admirable, I don't agree. I'd be even further along today had I gotten the help I needed before I eventually did.

Edited by ^0^CORVUS^o^, 10 March 2012 - 03:27 PM.

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#18 Evil Zoe

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:02 PM

QUOTE(^0^CORVUS^o^ @ Mar 10 2012, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(The Doctor Who @ Mar 10 2012, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not ashamed, mind you... I just want to cope with it myself, if I can. It's part of my philosophy that such things will ultimately make you stronger as a person.

I'm sure that setting, surgically closing, and then casting your own compound fracture of the tibia would be an accomplishment of some sort, but it would be a dubious one at best. While your desire is admirable, I don't agree. I'd be even further along today had I gotten the help I needed before I eventually did.


It's very common for people to want to sort things out themselves. You know, the old 'pull yourself up by your own bootstraps' adage.

The problem is, with chemical imbalances that really isn't possible no matter how hard and long one tries. Also, by holding off on finding out if that is the issue, one wastes a LOT of one's life struggling with it instead of being able to actually LIVE.

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#19 The Doctor Who

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:07 PM

QUOTE(^0^CORVUS^o^ @ Mar 10 2012, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(The Doctor Who @ Mar 10 2012, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, but the whole reason I stay away from that is that it seems like the medical industry treats medication like a game of darts. "Lets see what this one does to you. How about this one? Or maybe this one?"

There's a reason for that. Modern Psychiatry is rather young, and the drugs used are even younger. We do NOT have a complete understanding of neuro-chemistry, not even close, and there are excellent, compelling ethical reasons why our understanding isn't further along.

Thing is even IF they get the medication right the first time, which is relatively uncommon, they then have to get the dose right too. Its nowhere near as easy as prescribing an antibiotic, a painkiller, immunizations, or corrective surgery on comparatively less-complex organs.

A good psychiatrist doesn't try you on different meds for fun: they do it because they want to try to get the right diagnosis first (which isn't always easy), and then the correct medication (or medications, which makes things much, much harder), and then the right dose.

Well obviously, that was hyperbole on my part. But the results are much the same. But this all comes down to what I, myself need. I have held my job for seven years, longer than either my parents have ever managed and quit the last one of my own volition and had this one within the month. I have friends that care about me and family that loves me and I have never been in serious trouble with the law. I am a functioning human being and do not require prescription medication to cope with the periodic depressive swings that come over me.

QUOTE(^0^CORVUS^o^ @ Mar 10 2012, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(The Doctor Who @ Mar 10 2012, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not ashamed, mind you... I just want to cope with it myself, if I can. It's part of my philosophy that such things will ultimately make you stronger as a person.

I'm sure that setting, surgically closing, and then casting your own compound fracture of the tibia would be an accomplishment of some sort, but it would be a dubious one at best. While your desire is admirable, I don't agree. I'd be even further along today had I gotten the help I needed before I eventually did.

This is silly. A broken bone is an entirely different animal to depression. One is an absolute with definitive treatments, the other is unpredictable and very much dependent upon the individual needs of the person, something that the medical industry has gotten worse and worse about taking into consideration in my opinion.

But depression can be self-managed, if it's not crippling. The key here is that it can be, but not always. If medication has helped you and you've found a good doctor, then I am very glad for you and if the same can help others than I would encourage them to do so. I'm all about what helps you, not me, not that other person over there, but you, the individual, because your problem isn't the same as mine, even if they sound alike, our brains are different. They may look the same on the outside but the decades of life have created unique wiring and patters that only we, ourselves really understand.

But, don't take my answer to be applicable to everyone. That's the biggest problem in people's perception of depressive disorders - that they are universal. Depression can be different for everyone and what helps one person may not help another or to the same degree.

As I've said before: My problems don't come up often and when they do, I can usually cope with them myself. Sometimes it's worse than others, but I've never felt as though I couldn't manage or that I was entirely out of control. Again: I lead a productive and happy life. If I can do that, then I think I'm fine without seeking professional help.

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#20 Galenraff

Galenraff

    Oh, by the way I've cracked the code.

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:22 PM

QUOTE
But on top of that, there is a distinct difference between eyesight and brain function. A person who is near-sighted is always near-sighted and always in a predictable way. They may need a stronger pair of glasses as they get older, but they are rarely near-sighted today and then far-sighted tomorrow. Brain chemistry by comparison is not nearly so predictable.

Not only what Corvus said about the complexity and relative newness of this field of medicine, but consider going to the eye doctor. How many times, even for a predictable exam, do you have to answer "Number one or number two? Number one or number two? One or two? Better or worse? One or two?"

It's just that with the depression drugs, it takes a few weeks before you can see the results, unlike with your eyes which you can tell the difference pretty much immediately. You'll almost never get glasses that match the very first thing the eye doctor shows you, and it's sort of unrealistic to expect the right results from the first try at medication for brain chemistry.

Just a different way of thinking about it.

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