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@  Dracula : (26 August 2016 - 07:45 AM)

Cake? My only weakness! *bursts into flame*

@  MEDdMI : (26 August 2016 - 05:15 AM)

Happy Birthday! *rolls a giant cake into the Shoutbox*

@  Pennpenn : (26 August 2016 - 12:55 AM)

Happy birthday to me!

@  OrionPax44 : (25 August 2016 - 04:50 PM)

Is the main dance move him flashing you in beat with the music?

@  Broadside : (25 August 2016 - 04:50 PM)

http://i.imgur.com/qeoJpsf.jpg

@  TheMightyMol... : (25 August 2016 - 04:48 PM)

HEEEEEEEEEEY FOODSTAMP LAAADAAAY

@  Broadside : (25 August 2016 - 04:45 PM)

Oppa Homeless Style?

@  LV! : (25 August 2016 - 01:01 PM)

That guy had a perfectly nice home, he just didn't want the neighbors to see you with him.

@  TheMightyMol... : (25 August 2016 - 11:52 AM)

Did you at least buy him dinner?

@  Robowang : (25 August 2016 - 11:14 AM)

So I was making out with this random old homeless guy, and he stops and is all like "Why are you making out with me?" and I'm just like "Shut up, Homeless Guy."

@  Benbot : (25 August 2016 - 07:34 AM)

What?

@  MEDdMI : (25 August 2016 - 05:58 AM)

Aren't we the ones causing trouble for Kalidor?

@  LBD "Nyt... : (25 August 2016 - 12:17 AM)

Also, anyone know how to find the rest of how Kalidor got a kid in trouuuuuubleee?

@  LBD "Nyt... : (25 August 2016 - 12:11 AM)

@ TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 03:20 AM) Why do you hate yourself? -- I don't, really. Whether good or ill, I'd like to know how RG1 goes so, if nothing else, I can actually talk about it from a place of experience.

@  Verity Carlo : (24 August 2016 - 06:58 PM)

I've seen Minority Report, I don't want to read the same thing except with superheroes and also shit

@  Verity Carlo : (24 August 2016 - 06:57 PM)

You know, what I hate about Civil War II the most is that it's not even trying to break out of the Minority Report shaped hole it's in.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 02:39 PM)

the debate sems to be over.

@  MEDdMI : (24 August 2016 - 02:37 PM)

Wouldn't it be easier to debate this in the comics subforum?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:31 PM)

I don't have anything else to say (although I still think G2 is the true ending, even if G I Joe doesn't mention it, it seems G I Joe/G2 crossover isn't canon for G I Joe comics but only for the Transformers continuity)

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:29 PM)

ok whatever you won.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:27 PM)

that's why I said "if", I dunno I didn't read G2 or G I Joe. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:26 PM)

Also,you're still basing this entirely on G2 matching a storyline that was part of G2 itself rather than whether or not G2 matches better with the G1 comic proper.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:24 PM)

The idea kind of falls apart when it requires that the apocalyptic alien invasions had such little impact that everyone easily just ignored forever.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:17 PM)

If some issues of G I Joe comics is a prelude to G2 and if there's nothing in the future G I Joe stories that condradicts San Francisco getting destroyed, yes I would say they share a continuity. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:02 PM)

If you're gonna go "we can assume it did happen even though it's never talked about as long as nothing specifically contradicts it", then surely it's just as easy to assume that the actual G1 TF and Joe crossover happened in the backstory of Classics and RG1.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:02 PM)

also I refrained from mentioning Ask Vector Prime but but didn't it say RG1 is a splinter timeline?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:58 PM)

has san francisco ever appeared in G I Joe stories that was chronologically set after G2?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:55 PM)

Intent is not the same as result. And comics end up ignoring things quite often.

@  Telly : (24 August 2016 - 12:54 PM)

maybe they figured a lot of people that read gi joe also read transformers. so they throw a crossover/build up in their to get some excitement for the new comic coming

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:51 PM)

If G2 universe was to be unrelated to G I Joe, why did they do a prelude to it?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:33 PM)

Classics and RG1 not including Joe issues 138-145 in their backstory does not preclude them from including TF 1-80, or even the Joe and TF miniseries.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 12:30 PM)

Marvel 616 is also a massive continuity snarl from dozens of writers altering, retconning, or ignoring each others' work for decades, so it's not really a great example for an argument on continuity.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:29 PM)

Marvel 616 continuity is a shared universe, devastating events happens in individual series but does mean every event gets mentioned in other comics? @Notvery knightly, yeah that's why I edited that post.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:27 PM)

Your proof for "TF universe = Joe universe" itself is the G2 lead-up, so your reasoning still goes back to G2 matching G2.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 12:25 PM)

So did GI Joe ever reference the time Bludgeon sent his entire force to rampage across the Earth? Or the time Jhiaxus blew San Francisco into a crater?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:25 PM)

whatever.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:22 PM)

Are you not seeing the recursiveness of "G2 is the true G1 sequel because G2 follows up on a G2 storyline"?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:18 PM)

Yeah it has been established that Marvel Transformers and G I Joe comics takes place in the same universe. Unless 90s G I Joe was a reboot I'm pretty sure the G2 crossing over to a G I Joe comic that takes place in the very same universe as the original Transformers makes G2 the canon ending.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:16 PM)

A crossover that the Joe comic apparently ignored.

@  Arazyr : (24 August 2016 - 12:15 PM)

They had a crossover before that, 1986. http://tfwiki.net/wi...he_Transformers

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:15 PM)

Did G.I. Joe acknowledge the planet getting wrecked by the Swarm? Because otherwise it's more like "Marvel Transformers is the same universe as Marvel G.I. Joe only when they feel like it".

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:11 PM)

You're using the G.I. Joe G2 prequel itself as the basis for "Marvel Transformers universe is the same universe as the Marvel G I Joe", which makes this a rather loopy argument.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:07 PM)

As I said before, Marvel Transformers universe is the same universe as the Marvel G I Joe. Marvel G I Joe crossovers with G2, which makes G2 the canon ending. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:59 AM)

How is that relevant to whether or not RG1 (or Classics, even) takes place after issues 1 through 80 of Marvel TF proper?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:51 AM)

it's a prequel to G2, which makes it the same universe as G2.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:48 AM)

That's clearly not in G2 itself, seeing as it's G.I. Joe issue 138.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:45 AM)

@NotVrtyKnightly Im talking about these issues. http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Unfoldings!

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (24 August 2016 - 11:30 AM)

Now for my part, I consider Marvel G2/Alignment the "true" ending because of Simon Furman's involvement in it, its continuous narrative with Marvel G1, and its sequential publication.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (24 August 2016 - 11:28 AM)

The nature of multiple spinoffs/branching timelines means that to call any one spinoff the "true" ending is an arbitrary decision.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:16 AM)

Joe doesn't take place "in G2". Even their Marvel TF-related history isn't confined entirely to a single publication from the 90s.


- - - - -

Upgrade failures


149 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_mignash_*

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:02 PM

In talk about Hall of Fame nominees recently I saw some people comment on Beast Machines Silverbolt being a worse toy that the Beast Wars one. I wouldn't argue that either, as I like the Beast Wars (and his Universe recolor" much better than the rainbow chickenhawk.

This got me thinking, what are the biggest failures in releasing "upgrades" existing characters? One that came to mind for me was Armada Thundercracker and Skywarp. The Cybertron toys were such disappointments. What comes to your mind?

#2 Exillion

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:45 PM

QUOTE(mignash @ Feb 24 2012, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In talk about Hall of Fame nominees recently I saw some people comment on Beast Machines Silverbolt being a worse toy that the Beast Wars one. I wouldn't argue that either, as I like the Beast Wars (and his Universe recolor" much better than the rainbow chickenhawk.

This got me thinking, what are the biggest failures in releasing "upgrades" existing characters? One that came to mind for me was Armada Thundercracker and Skywarp. The Cybertron toys were such disappointments. What comes to your mind?


As Silverbolt is my favorite BW/BM next to Rhinox, I always hated the BM toy as it was not a fitting update for the birddog and was happy when repaint of the original toy in his techno-organic color scheme showed up.

As for other upgrades gone bad, I would say Cheetor from the Universe line and Rattrap from the BM line. Seems like Maximal toys didn't measure up once BM started.

Edited by Exillion, 24 February 2012 - 11:47 PM.

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#3 Demovere Xeno

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 12:21 AM

Armada -> Universe Hot Shot? I like the updated version somewhat, but it's hard to argue that we went from a slightly-immobile, but solidly-playable toy to a highly articulated, but floppy figure with clearance issues in his back kibble and a Mini-Con that can no longer stand on its own. icon-op.gif

#4 Boltax

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:01 AM

Universe Cheetor and Universe Dinobot are both lesser "upgrades" they do some things 'better', than their original toys -- but one vitally important part is missing... any sense of fun or enjoyment. They're just not fun to play with.

--Andrew S.

#5 ShadowMan024

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:21 AM

Most of the figures I really wanted to like from Universe (Galvatron, Cheetor, Hot Shot, Dinobot) were pretty awful.

Also, there's the whole deal of Leader Bulkhead, while being a fun toy, just wasn't as fun for me as the Voyager version.

Transformers is a brand that really has something for everyone. We are a darn lucky fandom.


#6 Kup

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:31 AM

Universe & Classics have quite a few IMO: Galvatron, Grimlock, Cheetor, Dinobot, Tracks.
"Someone once told me that Time is a predator that stalked us all our lives, but I'd rather believe that Time is a companion who goes with us on the journey, and reminds us to cherish every moment -- because they'll never come again."

#7 MrBlud

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:33 AM

Universe Cheetor definitely.

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#8 ShadowMan024

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:34 AM

QUOTE(Kup @ Feb 25 2012, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Universe & Classics have quite a few IMO: Galvatron, Grimlock, Cheetor, Dinobot, Tracks.

I never bought Tracks, but that mold was perfect as Wheeljack icon-ironhide.gif

Transformers is a brand that really has something for everyone. We are a darn lucky fandom.


#9 crazyjw18

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 01:51 AM

Definitely Universe Cheetor. I never had original Galvatron, but it's pretty obvious the Universe one is full of fail even without having the original.
Universe Hot shot comes close to being better, but does have some issues. Jolt, on the other hand, has clearly become much worse.

I do like Universe Dinobot better. Those switchable hands... I guess it helps that I never cared for the original mold all that much.

If we can count characters from one movie to the next, Voyager Ironhides.... I didn't think the DOTM was as good as the old mold.

Battle in a Box Prime doesn't seem as good to me as the original toy. And without his trailer, Powermaster Prime isn't anywhere near as good as the original.

#10 tec

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 03:07 AM

Classics Galvatron So bad I had to own it twice to make sure it was really bad
I hope one day they retry him in a movie accrate way

Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me that tec has a job? I thought his sole reasons for existence are cheesecake and horrible grammar.-Shadowman024

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#11 Kup

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:55 AM

QUOTE(Spin Out @ Feb 25 2012, 01:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Kup @ Feb 25 2012, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Universe & Classics have quite a few IMO: Galvatron, Grimlock, Cheetor, Dinobot, Tracks.

I never bought Tracks, but that mold was perfect as Wheeljack icon-ironhide.gif


Exactly. Besides the head and bring blue, it wasn't a good tracks. But as Jackie? Perfection.

Also: Blurr
"Someone once told me that Time is a predator that stalked us all our lives, but I'd rather believe that Time is a companion who goes with us on the journey, and reminds us to cherish every moment -- because they'll never come again."

#12 Boltax

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:37 AM

I think I want to add some of the Action Masters to this list. I'm not going to trash ALL the Action Masters -- a lot of people really like them. But I think there's TWO Action Masters in particular who are a SERIOUS downgrade from the original toys.

Blaster and Soundwave.

While there's a definite compensation with, say, Snarl, because he comes with Tyrannitron... it's just not the case with Soundwave and Blaster! Those two already *HAD* little partner robots, and their little partner robots were actually way better than the Action Master partners. I really do think Blaster and Soundwave were massively downgraded thanks to Nucleon.

--Andrew S.
(On the other hand, Action Master Thundercracker? Massive upgrade. Action Master Starscream is... kind of a lateral move from the Pretender.)

Edited by Boltax, 25 February 2012 - 09:37 AM.


#13 Boltax

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:42 AM

Oh, I also want to add the original Legends figures -- the Pretender Classics that were repackaged without their Pretender shells. While Starscream and Bumblebee were definite upgrades, Grimlock and Jazz were DEFINITELY downgrades.

That said, add the Pretender Shells and there's no doubting that the Pretender Classics are way better than the originals. It's just those ones where they released them WITHOUT their shells that I take issue with. That's insane.

--Andrew S.
(Also... I don't know that even with his Pretender shell that Grimlock is an improvement. As much as I like the Pretender play pattern, the original Grimlock is just a really appealing toy.)

#14 Octavius Prime

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:45 AM

I fail to see how RtS Tracks isn't un upgrade of the original. He looks just like the G1, but now has articulation and storage for weapons. I think the only weak part might be the flying car mode.

#15 Dante

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:56 AM

Classics Jetfire is a lateral move from the original Bandai toy at best.

Arm articulation aside, I feel that RtS Jazz is inferior to Binaltech Meister both in terms of engineering and sculpting.

RtS G2 Prime is vastly inferior to Laser Optimus in every conceivable way, and doesn't even have an excuse for the one flaw both share (colors) since he's not gang molded with a huge trailer.

Rodimus Prime is a pretty lame toy compared to Hot Rod.

QUOTE
I fail to see how RtS Tracks isn't an upgrade of the original

Well, sure. But it's perhaps no better than the Binaltech version, and arguably worse.

Edited by Dante, 25 February 2012 - 09:58 AM.


#16 LV!

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 10:33 AM

BM Rattrap is by far my favorite Rattrap toy. I really wish we'd ever gotten a redeco of it, maybe as someone a little more feral.

The Ravage that came with Universe Hound is worse at everything than the G1 Ravage toy except for "being three-dimensional", and has a ridculous bird head to boot.

#17 Alpha Omega Trion Supreme

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 10:38 AM

I kind of want to say Energon Rodimus, just because of the weird proportions so it can be a pair of pants. I know some people really like the mold, and while I don't regard it strictly as an upgrade failure, I don't at all see it as an upgrade success. Energon Prowl kind of qualifies for the same reason, although that's not as obvious an upgrade attempt that pushes the G1 buttons like Rodimus does.

As has been mentioned, Classics Galvatron definitely qualifies. I like the figure, but it's definitely a failure at delivering what it promises. Way too complicated transformation that's made worse by it being at a deluxe scale, and which also really kills the aesthetics and leg articulation. I keep hoping we'll get a G1 toon Galvatron recolor of the smaller Energon Megatron mold.

Blurr isn't so much an upgrade failure as it's a non-G1 Blurr. I see what they were trying to do, and I think they accomplished it, but there's still a hole in my G1 movie cast.

Also, Classics Powerglide.

#18 Shadewing

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 10:45 AM

QUOTE(Octavius Prime @ Feb 25 2012, 09:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I fail to see how RtS Tracks isn't un upgrade of the original. He looks just like the G1, but now has articulation and storage for weapons. I think the only weak part might be the flying car mode.


Except he doesn't, he looks like some chunky body builder when compared to his original slender frame. He's boxy and ugly, maybe if the roof didn't take up 150% of his chest he might look better.

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#19 Octavius Prime

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE(Database @ Feb 25 2012, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Octavius Prime @ Feb 25 2012, 09:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I fail to see how RtS Tracks isn't un upgrade of the original. He looks just like the G1, but now has articulation and storage for weapons. I think the only weak part might be the flying car mode.


Except he doesn't, he looks like some chunky body builder when compared to his original slender frame. He's boxy and ugly, maybe if the roof didn't take up 150% of his chest he might look better.


He is boxier, that's for sure. However, I still don't consider him at all to be an "upgrade failure."


I also think he's a better toy than the alternator. The alt had the fake chest and was awful at dealing with kibble. I mean, I still like the mold (especially the Ravage version), but I almost wish they had gone back and put the Tracks head on a blue version of Alt. Sideswipe. Yeah, his leg movement might be crippled, but he's not a car explosion when viewed from the back.

Also, I prefer Animated leader Bulkhead to the voyager. It's a great toy.

#20 Shadewing

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 11:06 AM

QUOTE(Octavius Prime @ Feb 25 2012, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Database @ Feb 25 2012, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Octavius Prime @ Feb 25 2012, 09:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I fail to see how RtS Tracks isn't un upgrade of the original. He looks just like the G1, but now has articulation and storage for weapons. I think the only weak part might be the flying car mode.


Except he doesn't, he looks like some chunky body builder when compared to his original slender frame. He's boxy and ugly, maybe if the roof didn't take up 150% of his chest he might look better.


He is boxier, that's for sure. However, I still don't consider him at all to be an "upgrade failure."


I also think he's a better toy than the alternator. The alt had the fake chest and was awful at dealing with kibble. I mean, I still like the mold (especially the Ravage version), but I almost wish they had gone back and put the Tracks head on a blue version of Alt. Sideswipe. Yeah, his leg movement might be crippled, but he's not a car explosion when viewed from the back.

Also, I prefer Animated leader Bulkhead to the voyager. It's a great toy.


I prefer the Alt for the fake chest, becuase it keeps his lithe athletic look. If he wasn't larger then most voyagers he'd be my preferred version.

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