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@  Verity Carlo : (24 August 2016 - 06:58 PM)

I've seen Minority Report, I don't want to read the same thing except with superheroes and also shit

@  Verity Carlo : (24 August 2016 - 06:57 PM)

You know, what I hate about Civil War II the most is that it's not even trying to break out of the Minority Report shaped hole it's in.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 02:39 PM)

the debate sems to be over.

@  MEDdMI : (24 August 2016 - 02:37 PM)

Wouldn't it be easier to debate this in the comics subforum?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:31 PM)

I don't have anything else to say (although I still think G2 is the true ending, even if G I Joe doesn't mention it, it seems G I Joe/G2 crossover isn't canon for G I Joe comics but only for the Transformers continuity)

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:29 PM)

ok whatever you won.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:27 PM)

that's why I said "if", I dunno I didn't read G2 or G I Joe. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:26 PM)

Also,you're still basing this entirely on G2 matching a storyline that was part of G2 itself rather than whether or not G2 matches better with the G1 comic proper.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:24 PM)

The idea kind of falls apart when it requires that the apocalyptic alien invasions had such little impact that everyone easily just ignored forever.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:17 PM)

If some issues of G I Joe comics is a prelude to G2 and if there's nothing in the future G I Joe stories that condradicts San Francisco getting destroyed, yes I would say they share a continuity. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:02 PM)

If you're gonna go "we can assume it did happen even though it's never talked about as long as nothing specifically contradicts it", then surely it's just as easy to assume that the actual G1 TF and Joe crossover happened in the backstory of Classics and RG1.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:02 PM)

also I refrained from mentioning Ask Vector Prime but but didn't it say RG1 is a splinter timeline?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:58 PM)

has san francisco ever appeared in G I Joe stories that was chronologically set after G2?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:55 PM)

Intent is not the same as result. And comics end up ignoring things quite often.

@  Telly : (24 August 2016 - 12:54 PM)

maybe they figured a lot of people that read gi joe also read transformers. so they throw a crossover/build up in their to get some excitement for the new comic coming

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:51 PM)

If G2 universe was to be unrelated to G I Joe, why did they do a prelude to it?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:33 PM)

Classics and RG1 not including Joe issues 138-145 in their backstory does not preclude them from including TF 1-80, or even the Joe and TF miniseries.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 12:30 PM)

Marvel 616 is also a massive continuity snarl from dozens of writers altering, retconning, or ignoring each others' work for decades, so it's not really a great example for an argument on continuity.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:29 PM)

Marvel 616 continuity is a shared universe, devastating events happens in individual series but does mean every event gets mentioned in other comics? @Notvery knightly, yeah that's why I edited that post.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:27 PM)

Your proof for "TF universe = Joe universe" itself is the G2 lead-up, so your reasoning still goes back to G2 matching G2.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 12:25 PM)

So did GI Joe ever reference the time Bludgeon sent his entire force to rampage across the Earth? Or the time Jhiaxus blew San Francisco into a crater?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:25 PM)

whatever.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:22 PM)

Are you not seeing the recursiveness of "G2 is the true G1 sequel because G2 follows up on a G2 storyline"?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:18 PM)

Yeah it has been established that Marvel Transformers and G I Joe comics takes place in the same universe. Unless 90s G I Joe was a reboot I'm pretty sure the G2 crossing over to a G I Joe comic that takes place in the very same universe as the original Transformers makes G2 the canon ending.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:16 PM)

A crossover that the Joe comic apparently ignored.

@  Arazyr : (24 August 2016 - 12:15 PM)

They had a crossover before that, 1986. http://tfwiki.net/wi...he_Transformers

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:15 PM)

Did G.I. Joe acknowledge the planet getting wrecked by the Swarm? Because otherwise it's more like "Marvel Transformers is the same universe as Marvel G.I. Joe only when they feel like it".

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:11 PM)

You're using the G.I. Joe G2 prequel itself as the basis for "Marvel Transformers universe is the same universe as the Marvel G I Joe", which makes this a rather loopy argument.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:07 PM)

As I said before, Marvel Transformers universe is the same universe as the Marvel G I Joe. Marvel G I Joe crossovers with G2, which makes G2 the canon ending. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:59 AM)

How is that relevant to whether or not RG1 (or Classics, even) takes place after issues 1 through 80 of Marvel TF proper?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:51 AM)

it's a prequel to G2, which makes it the same universe as G2.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:48 AM)

That's clearly not in G2 itself, seeing as it's G.I. Joe issue 138.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:45 AM)

@NotVrtyKnightly Im talking about these issues. http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Unfoldings!

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (24 August 2016 - 11:30 AM)

Now for my part, I consider Marvel G2/Alignment the "true" ending because of Simon Furman's involvement in it, its continuous narrative with Marvel G1, and its sequential publication.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (24 August 2016 - 11:28 AM)

The nature of multiple spinoffs/branching timelines means that to call any one spinoff the "true" ending is an arbitrary decision.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:16 AM)

Joe doesn't take place "in G2". Even their Marvel TF-related history isn't confined entirely to a single publication from the 90s.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:08 AM)

Look, oirignal Marvel Transformers takes place in the same universe as G I Joe and G I Joe takes place in the same universe as G2, which makes G2 the true canon ending.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:07 AM)

And it's not like anyone would argue that Rebirth wasn't actually the fourth season of the Sunbow cartoon entirely based on the lack of Ramirez and Old Snake.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:07 AM)

No you don't get it, I'm not saying RG1 is "less true" because G I Joe doesn't show up.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 10:54 AM)

Also, it's set decades later and earth was wrecked. Surely you don't need an explanation of why the Joes don't show up.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 10:53 AM)

None of that makes RG1 less "true".

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 10:41 AM)

How is it odd? G I joe and Transformers are canonically in the same continuty. Marvel Transformers continuity is a shared universe. G I Joe is canon and they had a crossover with G2, which makes it canon too, simple as that.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 09:30 AM)

an odd thing to say, surely.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 09:30 AM)

If you haven't read them, picking one over the other because of the presence of G.I. Joes is just

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 09:24 AM)

Also even though it's not officially published, I believe Alignment is canon since it was referenced in Ask Vector Prime and Allspark Almanac.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 09:22 AM)

I don't have an opinion on neither G2 or RG1 since I didn't read them.

@  Dracula : (24 August 2016 - 07:54 AM)

G2 was kind of miserable but even that is preferable to RG1.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 07:14 AM)

I don't think RG1 is the true ending to the Marvel because G. I Joe was in the same continuity as Transformers and they had a crossover with G2, not RG1 (obviously RG1 didn't exist back then). So G2/Alignment is the true ending.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 02:20 AM)

Why do you hate yourself?

@  LBD "Nyt... : (24 August 2016 - 12:45 AM)

I still need to read everything after Vol. 1 of RG1...


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TFCC comic: Battle Lines part 6


40 replies to this topic

#1 Jackpot

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 12:54 PM

Heeeeeeee hee hee hee hee. Pete Sinclair, you coy bastard.

Spoilers, HIGHLIGHT to view:
So Dion is clearly getting set up to become Ultra Magnus when Magnus tells him, "Perhaps one solar cycle, you'd make a great Magnum...," and Dion replies, "You know, I like the sound of that!" But when the two of them are gravely injured, Alpha Trion's prognosis is written intentionally vaguely, and then when Ultra Magnus does appear, the most information we get is Optimus calling him "old friend." I think the weight of evidence, such as it is, is on Dion's side, but why would Alpha Trion rebuild him to look so much like Magnum? Maybe he used Magnum's body for raw materials? Kind of gruesome, but I guess this is a robot war we're talking about...
Non-Dion spoilers, HIGHLIGHT to view:
Based on the dialogue in the Paradron-bound ship, I think we're meant to believe Rumbler is one of Sprocket's hallucinations. That's kind of neat - does anyone know if Rumbler's appearances in this storyline have ever contradicted that idea? I'm pretty sure they've only been shown together.

Overall, it seems the purpose of this issue is to fill G1-'toon plot holes and find places for "Wings"-specific characters to go. It came across a little pat to me, but there are clever bits, like the explanation for Kup's conspicuous agedness in the present. I thought it all felt more G1-'toon-y than most of the rest of "Wings", probably because the references suddenly got way more explicit. I liked that, but I'm happy the setting is going to jump to the present. The "Wings" stories never grabbed me, and the idea of filling in plot holes doesn't appeal that strongly to me when it's not actually meant to be the same universe. But G2 is great underexplored territory, and I'm looking forward to seeing where that goes.

Edited by Jackpot, 09 December 2011 - 03:55 PM.


#2 NightViper

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 01:23 PM

QUOTE(Jackpot @ Dec 9 2011, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Non-Dion spoilers, HIGHLIGHT to view:
Based on the dialogue in the Paradron-bound ship, I think we're meant to believe Rumbler is one of Sprocket's hallucinations. That's kind of neat - does anyone know if Rumbler's appearances in this storyline have ever contradicted that idea? I'm pretty sure they've only been shown together.


An interesting idea, but not really what happened icon-hotrod.gif

HIGHLIGHT to view:
Look at the two-page spread in Part 5. And then check out the wounded Autobots in the medical bay that Ratchet et al are working on. Rumbler WAS real...


#3 Walky

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 01:31 PM

Rumbler was one of the dudes seen exploded by Shockwave in the big-ass two-page spread in the previous installment. Not that this destroys your hypothesis completely...

Now that folks are getting their copies in earnest, here's what bummed me out about this story:

Apparently this two-year story wasn't about what I thought it was about. It starts out with Dion, thinking all of his friends are dead, joining the Elite Guard with a new body. Meanwhile, Dion's friend, who Dion thinks is dead, is also rebuilt and joins the rival Autobot group. I really thought something was going to happen with that. I really did. There's pathos and angst there, untapped.

The Dion/Magnus thing was clever (if only because we still don't definitively know, thank god), but who Dion is has never been an issue to me. I'd be pretty happy if I got payoff for the Dion/Orion thing instead.

#4 Powered Convoy

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 02:07 PM

QUOTE(Code of Walky @ Dec 9 2011, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Apparently this two-year story wasn't about what I thought it was about. It starts out with Dion, thinking all of his friends are dead, joining the Elite Guard with a new body. Meanwhile, Dion's friend, who Dion thinks is dead, is also rebuilt and joins the rival Autobot group. I really thought something was going to happen with that. I really did. There's pathos and angst there, untapped.

The Dion/Magnus thing was clever (if only because we still don't definitively know, thank god), but who Dion is has never been an issue to me. I'd be pretty happy if I got payoff for the Dion/Orion thing instead.


I had similar thoughts about this when it started and then when it was revealed that Optimus was alive (and not that it was some spin on what if Orion died and Dion lived). I have a feeling that the story was originally heading that way but for reasons we're unaware of it had to change for one reason or another.

I really liked Dion too, so I'm hoping some how he made it through it all as himself.

By the way, who is Shattered Glass Slamdance's colors based on? He reminds me of Zarak but that seems like an odd homage.

Randy

#5 Pete@BotCon

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 02:15 PM

QUOTE(Jackpot @ Dec 9 2011, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Overall, it seems the purpose of this issue is to fill G1-'toon plot holes and find places for "Wings"-specific characters to go. It came across a little pat to me, but there are clever bits, like the explanation for Kup's conspicuous agedness in the present. I thought it all felt more G1-'toon-y than most of the rest of "Wings", probably because the references suddenly got way more explicit. I liked that, but I'm happy the setting is going to jump to the present. The "Wings" stories never grabbed me, and the idea of filling in plot holes doesn't appeal that strongly to me when it's not actually meant to be the same universe. But G2 is great underexplored territory, and I'm looking forward to seeing where that goes.


The universe itself does contain all of the G1 episodes, so it was important to wrap some of that up.

Also, I think, this issue was meant not just to tie up loose ends, but to tie it ALL together.
HIGHLIGHT to view:
We see Autobots leaving for Paradron, Kup's age explained, the formation of the Autobot army as we know it in 1984 and the startof the Micromaster initiative (granted, this was outside of the toon)... And of course, taking everything in to consideration, it made perfect sense to leave WHO Ultra Magnus is open-ended. Optimus viewed both as friends.

At the end of the day, this is probably it for the Wings of Honor portion of the Wings universe. I don't see us telling anymore stories from the distant past.

It was extremely fun to write this story though. Getting to do a "Sunbow" version of the distant past was cool. But I gotta tell you, I am really pleased with how the script for "A Flash Forward" turned out and I think everyone will be blown away by the way Matt Frank is bringing it to life! His pages just rock! I think you will enjoy that story...

Edited by Pete@BotCon, 09 December 2011 - 02:16 PM.


#6 Powered Convoy

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 02:23 PM

Any chance we'll be getting a preview page of "A Flash Foward" before it hits mailboxes Pete?

I thought for a moment Side Burn was going to be quite happy being left behind on a planet that seemingly devoid of any other Autobots other than the Female Autobots. But then I remembered Kup, Thunderclash, and the 1985 guys were all still there.

Randy

#7 Walky

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 02:27 PM

It doesn't seem to be explicit on whether Side Burn was one of those who got in a pod or not. I guess it depends on whether you'd want Original Recipe or Dirty Old Man Side Burn to show up in A Flash Forward.

#8 Pete@BotCon

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 02:30 PM

QUOTE(Code of Walky @ Dec 9 2011, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It doesn't seem to be explicit on whether Side Burn was one of those who got in a pod or not. I guess it depends on whether you'd want Original Recipe or Dirty Old Man Side Burn to show up in A Flash Forward.


HA!

Well. Not really a spoiler, but Side Burn does hop in a pod. Try's to squeeze in with Flare Up/Firestar's. THAT did not go so well...

Edited by Pete@BotCon, 09 December 2011 - 02:30 PM.


#9 Walky

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 03:01 PM

I hope when Kup wakes them up four million years later, he remembers what to say.



#10 Powered Convoy

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 03:06 PM

So who is Slamdance's colors based on? icon-hotrod.gif

Randy

#11 Walky

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 03:12 PM

That is a very good question.

I do not know if (or how) I will ever be able to translate this into a four-to-five panel comic, so this is Slamdance's deal:

Grandslam thinks he is half of a real journalist. Raindance thinks he's half of a fake comedy journalist. They combine into someone who sounds, amazingly, just like Stephen Colbert. Evil Stephen Colbert. And, given that G1 Slamdance kind of rules out a patriotic red/white/blue color scheme for SG Slamdance, I had to find some other inspiration for an evil Stephen Colbert.



#12 Jackpot

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 03:22 PM

QUOTE(NightViper @ Dec 9 2011, 10:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
HIGHLIGHT to view:
Look at the two-page spread in Part 5. And then check out the wounded Autobots in the medical bay that Ratchet et al are working on. Rumbler WAS real...

HIGHLIGHT to view:
Huh. Emphasis on "was," I guess. That's actually neater - now Sprocket's got this phantom dead brother in his head. I want to see a Rumbler Durden story. And/or a story about the shock that would happen if Rumbler survived and millenia later met up with Sprocket again.

QUOTE(Pete@BotCon @ Dec 9 2011, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The universe itself does contain all of the G1 episodes, so it was important to wrap some of that up.

Ah, that's the first time I've heard that. So basically, characters might not be in exactly the same bodies, but the events we saw onscreen are the same?

QUOTE
Also, I think, this issue was meant not just to tie up loose ends, but to tie it ALL together.
HIGHLIGHT to view:
We see Autobots leaving for Paradron, Kup's age explained, the formation of the Autobot army as we know it in 1984 and the startof the Micromaster initiative (granted, this was outside of the toon)... And of course, taking everything in to consideration, it made perfect sense to leave WHO Ultra Magnus is open-ended. Optimus viewed both as friends.

Honestly, it's the tie-it-ALL-together-ness that made it feel pat to me. For instance, HIGHLIGHT to view:
I liked the "great Magnum" line because it was all we needed to put Dion on that path and still leave some room for uncertainty. So I was a little disappointed that "perhaps one solar cycle" ended up being basically the next day, spelling out for the reader SEE WE MEANT ULTRA MAGNUS without adding any value to the story.

Now, that having been said, I did appreciate stuff like the explanation for where the season-2 'Bots came from and why they don't seem to have four million extra years' worth of war under their belts. I'm not sure if it's meant to account for the cybertonium depletion too, but I can imagine ways in which it could.


QUOTE
It was extremely fun to write this story though. Getting to do a "Sunbow" version of the distant past was cool.

You did a good job capturing the characters' voices. Like I said, this issue in particular really embodied the vibe for me.

Edited by Jackpot, 09 December 2011 - 03:57 PM.


#13 Powered Convoy

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 03:30 PM

QUOTE(Code of Walky @ Dec 9 2011, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is a very good question.

I do not know if (or how) I will ever be able to translate this into a four-to-five panel comic, so this is Slamdance's deal:

Grandslam thinks he is half of a real journalist. Raindance thinks he's half of a fake comedy journalist. They combine into someone who sounds, amazingly, just like Stephen Colbert. Evil Stephen Colbert. And, given that G1 Slamdance kind of rules out a patriotic red/white/blue color scheme for SG Slamdance, I had to find some other inspiration for an evil Stephen Colbert.


Brililant! And thank you for the answer.

Randy

#14 Pete@BotCon

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 05:15 PM

QUOTE(Jackpot @ Dec 9 2011, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You did a good job capturing the characters' voices. Like I said, this issue in particular really embodied the vibe for me.


It's funny you say that. Now, Jesse does the majority of the dialogue. I do more of the framing and pacing. So as I was editing, going back and reading the Optimus Prime lines, I totally heard Peter Cullen. Was really kind of weird actually lol. But cool.



#15 Destron D-69

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 05:25 PM

ittsy bittsy teeny weeny.

icon-fire.gif Walky, if I haven't said it recently - you sir are awesome.
With Takara's current cheesecakey track record, I don't doubt she fires the Fusion Railgun on her back by bending over at the waist and blushing o//o

#16 Creedence

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 06:30 PM

Magnum is Magnus because Hasbro said Dion wasn't rebuilt into anybody. Nyeh nyeh.

#17 LBD "Nytetrayn"

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 11:13 AM

I hope there will be some way for us non-Club members to be able to get this stuff collected somehow...

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

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#18 Agent X

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 01:13 AM

I am upset that Dion had to "die" for some form of closure. I was looking forward to seeing him pop up again in stories set in the present/future, as I see Dion to FunPub as Drift to IDW. A character we can learn about through their journies rather than assembling a assumed history about a guy we've seen in cartoon's and comics.
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#19 G.B.Blackrock

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 01:45 AM

QUOTE(Agent X @ Dec 10 2011, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am upset that Dion had to "die" for some form of closure. I was looking forward to seeing him pop up again in stories set in the present/future, as I see Dion to FunPub as Drift to IDW. A character we can learn about through their journies rather than assembling a assumed history about a guy we've seen in cartoon's and comics.

Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure I'd say "upset," really. It just seemed unnecessary. Could have just let him fade away with no reference to the old "who did he become" argument, and I'd have been just fine.

#20 Pete@BotCon

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:57 AM

QUOTE(G.B.Blackrock @ Dec 11 2011, 01:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Agent X @ Dec 10 2011, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am upset that Dion had to "die" for some form of closure. I was looking forward to seeing him pop up again in stories set in the present/future, as I see Dion to FunPub as Drift to IDW. A character we can learn about through their journies rather than assembling a assumed history about a guy we've seen in cartoon's and comics.

Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure I'd say "upset," really. It just seemed unnecessary. Could have just let him fade away with no reference to the old "who did he become" argument, and I'd have been just fine.


Well, he didn't "have" to "die"... However, it served a few purposes, one being that it does bring an end to the "old" and ushers in the new. Essentially everyone from the Elite Guard is gone. By the time we get to the present, only Kup is still alive on Cybertron. (Odds are Thunderclash will have died at some point during the 4 million years). Also, since the Dion argument has been going on since fans found their way online, figured it was a nice little nod to that i.e. Who IS Ultra Magnus? Those were just a couple points...

But really, we felt we took Dion as far as he could go. There will be plenty of surprises in "A Flash Forward" though... So excited about this 36 page story!



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