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@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 02:39 PM)

the debate sems to be over.

@  MEDdMI : (24 August 2016 - 02:37 PM)

Wouldn't it be easier to debate this in the comics subforum?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:31 PM)

I don't have anything else to say (although I still think G2 is the true ending, even if G I Joe doesn't mention it, it seems G I Joe/G2 crossover isn't canon for G I Joe comics but only for the Transformers continuity)

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:29 PM)

ok whatever you won.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:27 PM)

that's why I said "if", I dunno I didn't read G2 or G I Joe. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:26 PM)

Also,you're still basing this entirely on G2 matching a storyline that was part of G2 itself rather than whether or not G2 matches better with the G1 comic proper.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:24 PM)

The idea kind of falls apart when it requires that the apocalyptic alien invasions had such little impact that everyone easily just ignored forever.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:17 PM)

If some issues of G I Joe comics is a prelude to G2 and if there's nothing in the future G I Joe stories that condradicts San Francisco getting destroyed, yes I would say they share a continuity. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:02 PM)

If you're gonna go "we can assume it did happen even though it's never talked about as long as nothing specifically contradicts it", then surely it's just as easy to assume that the actual G1 TF and Joe crossover happened in the backstory of Classics and RG1.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:02 PM)

also I refrained from mentioning Ask Vector Prime but but didn't it say RG1 is a splinter timeline?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:58 PM)

has san francisco ever appeared in G I Joe stories that was chronologically set after G2?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:55 PM)

Intent is not the same as result. And comics end up ignoring things quite often.

@  Telly : (24 August 2016 - 12:54 PM)

maybe they figured a lot of people that read gi joe also read transformers. so they throw a crossover/build up in their to get some excitement for the new comic coming

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:51 PM)

If G2 universe was to be unrelated to G I Joe, why did they do a prelude to it?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:33 PM)

Classics and RG1 not including Joe issues 138-145 in their backstory does not preclude them from including TF 1-80, or even the Joe and TF miniseries.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 12:30 PM)

Marvel 616 is also a massive continuity snarl from dozens of writers altering, retconning, or ignoring each others' work for decades, so it's not really a great example for an argument on continuity.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:29 PM)

Marvel 616 continuity is a shared universe, devastating events happens in individual series but does mean every event gets mentioned in other comics? @Notvery knightly, yeah that's why I edited that post.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:27 PM)

Your proof for "TF universe = Joe universe" itself is the G2 lead-up, so your reasoning still goes back to G2 matching G2.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 12:25 PM)

So did GI Joe ever reference the time Bludgeon sent his entire force to rampage across the Earth? Or the time Jhiaxus blew San Francisco into a crater?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:25 PM)

whatever.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:22 PM)

Are you not seeing the recursiveness of "G2 is the true G1 sequel because G2 follows up on a G2 storyline"?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:18 PM)

Yeah it has been established that Marvel Transformers and G I Joe comics takes place in the same universe. Unless 90s G I Joe was a reboot I'm pretty sure the G2 crossing over to a G I Joe comic that takes place in the very same universe as the original Transformers makes G2 the canon ending.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:16 PM)

A crossover that the Joe comic apparently ignored.

@  Arazyr : (24 August 2016 - 12:15 PM)

They had a crossover before that, 1986. http://tfwiki.net/wi...he_Transformers

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:15 PM)

Did G.I. Joe acknowledge the planet getting wrecked by the Swarm? Because otherwise it's more like "Marvel Transformers is the same universe as Marvel G.I. Joe only when they feel like it".

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:11 PM)

You're using the G.I. Joe G2 prequel itself as the basis for "Marvel Transformers universe is the same universe as the Marvel G I Joe", which makes this a rather loopy argument.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:07 PM)

As I said before, Marvel Transformers universe is the same universe as the Marvel G I Joe. Marvel G I Joe crossovers with G2, which makes G2 the canon ending. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:59 AM)

How is that relevant to whether or not RG1 (or Classics, even) takes place after issues 1 through 80 of Marvel TF proper?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:51 AM)

it's a prequel to G2, which makes it the same universe as G2.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:48 AM)

That's clearly not in G2 itself, seeing as it's G.I. Joe issue 138.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:45 AM)

@NotVrtyKnightly Im talking about these issues. http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Unfoldings!

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (24 August 2016 - 11:30 AM)

Now for my part, I consider Marvel G2/Alignment the "true" ending because of Simon Furman's involvement in it, its continuous narrative with Marvel G1, and its sequential publication.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (24 August 2016 - 11:28 AM)

The nature of multiple spinoffs/branching timelines means that to call any one spinoff the "true" ending is an arbitrary decision.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:16 AM)

Joe doesn't take place "in G2". Even their Marvel TF-related history isn't confined entirely to a single publication from the 90s.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:08 AM)

Look, oirignal Marvel Transformers takes place in the same universe as G I Joe and G I Joe takes place in the same universe as G2, which makes G2 the true canon ending.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:07 AM)

And it's not like anyone would argue that Rebirth wasn't actually the fourth season of the Sunbow cartoon entirely based on the lack of Ramirez and Old Snake.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:07 AM)

No you don't get it, I'm not saying RG1 is "less true" because G I Joe doesn't show up.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 10:54 AM)

Also, it's set decades later and earth was wrecked. Surely you don't need an explanation of why the Joes don't show up.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 10:53 AM)

None of that makes RG1 less "true".

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 10:41 AM)

How is it odd? G I joe and Transformers are canonically in the same continuty. Marvel Transformers continuity is a shared universe. G I Joe is canon and they had a crossover with G2, which makes it canon too, simple as that.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 09:30 AM)

an odd thing to say, surely.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 09:30 AM)

If you haven't read them, picking one over the other because of the presence of G.I. Joes is just

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 09:24 AM)

Also even though it's not officially published, I believe Alignment is canon since it was referenced in Ask Vector Prime and Allspark Almanac.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 09:22 AM)

I don't have an opinion on neither G2 or RG1 since I didn't read them.

@  Dracula : (24 August 2016 - 07:54 AM)

G2 was kind of miserable but even that is preferable to RG1.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 07:14 AM)

I don't think RG1 is the true ending to the Marvel because G. I Joe was in the same continuity as Transformers and they had a crossover with G2, not RG1 (obviously RG1 didn't exist back then). So G2/Alignment is the true ending.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 02:20 AM)

Why do you hate yourself?

@  LBD "Nyt... : (24 August 2016 - 12:45 AM)

I still need to read everything after Vol. 1 of RG1...

@  Telly : (23 August 2016 - 11:47 PM)

i really wouldve liked to see rg1 pick up where the marvel run left off (or just a couple years after), instead of jumping 20 years. i wanna see how shit went down on earth

@  Dracula : (23 August 2016 - 09:54 PM)

After RG1, I'd just as soon have nobody ever touch the marvel continuity again


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Ongoing #14


36 replies to this topic

#1 lonegamer8

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 05:05 AM

Ongoing #14 out Wednesday, December 8, 2010.

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#2 Echowarrior

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 02:25 PM

Got my issue. I think it's safe to say that things have just gotten much, much worse.

HIGHLIGHT to view:
Though where in the blue blazes did that Megatron head come from?
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#3 Detour

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 02:44 PM

QUOTE(Echowarrior @ Dec 8 2010, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Got my issue. I think it's safe to say that things have just gotten much, much worse.

From a "the jive hit the fan for our heroes" standpoint, or from an "oh god this is horrible writing" standpoint?

QUOTE
HIGHLIGHT to view:
Though where in the blue blazes did that Megatron head come from?

Ellaboration is required.

You're far too young to be this bitter and angry at the world....

I'm reading that with Roy's voice. Heck, I read everything you post in a laconic Irish accent.

 


#4 Echowarrior

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 02:52 PM

QUOTE(Detour @ Dec 8 2010, 02:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Echowarrior @ Dec 8 2010, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Got my issue. I think it's safe to say that things have just gotten much, much worse.

From a "the jive hit the fan for our heroes" standpoint, or from an "oh god this is horrible writing" standpoint?

QUOTE
HIGHLIGHT to view:
Though where in the blue blazes did that Megatron head come from?

Ellaboration is required.


Things have gotten much, much worse in the former sense, not the latter. I get that you've got issues with this series, and I do too, but I'm gonna wait to judge this story until after it's totally finished. Can't fault me for that, right?

HIGHLIGHT to view:
As for the Megatron head - the last couple pages establish that somewhere in Central America (presumably Mexico), a large thing resembling Megatron's head crashed roughly four months prior to the events of this issue, and that the locals have been making replicas of Megatron's old P-38 alternate mode for some time - one of which was the gun used to shoot Bumblebee.

Now, Megatron's still got a head, so what happened? Did he swap out heads with his rebuilt body? Is the Megatron we saw last issue a fake?

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#5 Detour

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 03:06 PM

QUOTE(Echowarrior @ Dec 8 2010, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Things have gotten much, much worse in the former sense, not the latter. I get that you've got issues with this series, and I do too, but I'm gonna wait to judge this story until after it's totally finished. Can't fault me for that, right?

No, I cannot. I was merely curious what you meant.

QUOTE
HIGHLIGHT to view:
As for the Megatron head - the last couple pages establish that somewhere in Central America (presumably Mexico), a large thing resembling Megatron's head crashed roughly four months prior to the events of this issue, and that the locals have been making replicas of Megatron's old P-38 alternate mode for some time - one of which was the gun used to shoot Bumblebee.

Now, Megatron's still got a head, so what happened? Did he swap out heads with his rebuilt body? Is the Megatron we saw last issue a fake?

Well that sounds... unusual.

You're far too young to be this bitter and angry at the world....

I'm reading that with Roy's voice. Heck, I read everything you post in a laconic Irish accent.

 


#6 Cattleprod

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 07:33 PM

Eh, it seems to make sense, if last issue took place right after issues 6 and 7 chronologically. While 8-12 were going on, they dumped Megs' old body on Earth for whatever reason and plotted all this stuff.

#7 Commander Shockwav

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 08:36 PM

SPOILERS


If one accepts the premise that humans can be legitimate opponents to Transformers if properly armed (which I don't think I can) then this issue wasn't bad. In fact, I'd say I was a bit intrigued for the first time since the first six-issue arc about where things are going.

Most intriguing to me now is the newly arising question, "What are Megatron's remains doing on Earth?". Now, I'm not sure what will happen with this or what Costa will do with it, but I see a potentially kickass twist that could occur here if done right. Consider that issue when Starscream's Decepticons on that asteroid were first shown. Seemingly out of nowhere, Shockwave was present, for just one panel. And since that time, he has remained conspicuously absent. No sign of him in the last issue when Hot Rod attacked. Interestingly, Megatron's new body is much more akin to Shockwave himself, in both color and design. Also interestingly, the new Megatron showed no concern for the very item he chased around the galaxy, the Matrix. I would think that strange for Megatron and out of character. But not so much for Shockwave, who never really desired it.

So what if, what if, this new Megatron isn't Megatron at all? What if this is Shockwave given new form? A form, dare I say, that somewhat mimics his new upcoming form in the movie, given his sillohuette in the prequel comics yet to be published?

Why would Shockwave do this? I don't know, but I would think an adept writer could certainly create a good enough motive to make this one of the greatest twists in a comic book since Ratchet and Megs got blown together into one being. Perhaps Shockwave might do this to more easily usurp Decepticon authority. Megatron's troops would never question Megatron. They might do so with Shockwave.

Is this what Costa is up to? After all, we know the new big baddy for the upcoming movie is Shockers. What better way to bring him back into the spotlight and have him assume command of the Decepticon army without firing a shot? I would take a lot back if it were true. But I'm not holding my breath.

Say what you will about the faces, Don's art still fascinates me. His angles and proportions are always spot on. He makes the bots sleek and deadly looking, and I think that certainly adds a more serious undertone to a story that sorely needs to jettison that cartoony feel. If only he could stay on permanently.

It continues to be absolutely infuriatingly stupid though, this idea that the Autobots are "stuck" on Earth, which Magnus again reminds us about this issue as well. I am begging Mike to please never mention this again. No matter how many times he tries to convince us this makes sense, it never really will. So let's just assume that for whatever reason, the Autobots are there and leave it at that.

Give this issue a "C+".

#8 Autobot Bubbs

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 10:35 PM

I'm curious if the deal with the Cerebro shells doesn't have anything to do with some rather specifically directed anti-autobot fervor.
spoilers are a stabbing weight upon my soul.... crushing it into a dark existential nothingness

#9 Magnusblitz

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 02:16 AM

QUOTE(Commander Shockwav @ Dec 8 2010, 05:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Most intriguing to me now is the newly arising question, "What are Megatron's remains doing on Earth?". Now, I'm not sure what will happen with this or what Costa will do with it, but I see a potentially kickass twist that could occur here if done right. Consider that issue when Starscream's Decepticons on that asteroid were first shown. Seemingly out of nowhere, Shockwave was present, for just one panel. And since that time, he has remained conspicuously absent. No sign of him in the last issue when Hot Rod attacked. Interestingly, Megatron's new body is much more akin to Shockwave himself, in both color and design. Also interestingly, the new Megatron showed no concern for the very item he chased around the galaxy, the Matrix. I would think that strange for Megatron and out of character. But not so much for Shockwave, who never really desired it.

So what if, what if, this new Megatron isn't Megatron at all? What if this is Shockwave given new form? A form, dare I say, that somewhat mimics his new upcoming form in the movie, given his sillohuette in the prequel comics yet to be published?

Why would Shockwave do this? I don't know, but I would think an adept writer could certainly create a good enough motive to make this one of the greatest twists in a comic book since Ratchet and Megs got blown together into one being. Perhaps Shockwave might do this to more easily usurp Decepticon authority. Megatron's troops would never question Megatron. They might do so with Shockwave.


Very interesting idea. Unfortunately, I think that's also the same reason that it won't be that. So far Costa has shown no variation from doing the expected and obvious.


#10 BB Shockwave

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 08:15 AM

QUOTE(Echowarrior @ Dec 8 2010, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
HIGHLIGHT to view:
As for the Megatron head - the last couple pages establish that somewhere in Central America (presumably Mexico), a large thing resembling Megatron's head crashed roughly four months prior to the events of this issue, and that the locals have been making replicas of Megatron's old P-38 alternate mode for some time - one of which was the gun used to shoot Bumblebee.

Now, Megatron's still got a head, so what happened? Did he swap out heads with his rebuilt body? Is the Megatron we saw last issue a fake?


Now, that's what I call a CLUSTERHUG.

Seriously, the Mexicans are making G1 Megatron toys now? I thought that was the Chinese' job the make KOs. icon-hotrod.gif

QUOTE(Commander Shockwav @ Dec 9 2010, 02:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SPOILERS





So what if, what if, this new Megatron isn't Megatron at all? What if this is Shockwave given new form? A form, dare I say, that somewhat mimics his new upcoming form in the movie, given his sillohuette in the prequel comics yet to be published?


This'd be all nice and interesting... but all of Costa's "big reveals" so far has been incredibly unimpressive and totally predictable. (Swindle's betrayal, Metroplex's appearance, Alpha Trion... not being evil..., Starscream NOT doing anything with the matrix) After the 5th or so such disappointment, I am not holding my breath. Usually the fan theories behind these odd things, such as yours, are more interesting then what the writer could have made up.



Edited by BB Shockwave, 09 December 2010 - 08:22 AM.

ViperSig.jpg

#11 Commander Shockwav

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 03:08 PM

Love that Shockwave sig pic.

#12 BB Shockwave

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 08:34 AM

QUOTE(Commander Shockwav @ Dec 9 2010, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Love that Shockwave sig pic.


A friend made it for me - he is a T-shirt designer, so I have it on a T-shirt as well... icon-hotrod.gif Nice to see you, by the way! Ever since my office blocks Transfans and TFW2005 I haven't really visited those boards.

And you are right, there is certainly something alien, almost Bayformer-ish in the new Megs design. However, IDW Shockwave has really shown no indication for leadership so far. He is a scientist, and more importantly, a survivor. He still has some backlash to fear from Megs due to his actions with creating Ore 13 behind his back, but given the current desperate situation of the Cons I doubt Megs would have brought that one up. Also, there is the thing with Soundwave... while Furman has shown him as an opportunist, Shane and Costa portrayed him again as the never-speaking (man, how I hated that in Dreamwave...) Megatron loyalist. I doubt Shockwave could have pulled a switch while he was watching over Megatron.

Then again, Shocky was working on a spacebridge... which would have allowed him to dump Megatron on Earth. (Why there, though, where he knows Decepticons and Autobots plus sentient, hostile life-forms with a grudge against cybertronians reside... that makes little sense).

Edited by BB Shockwave, 10 December 2010 - 08:39 AM.

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#13 Commander Shockwav

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 04:08 PM

QUOTE(BB Shockwave @ Dec 10 2010, 09:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Commander Shockwav @ Dec 9 2010, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Love that Shockwave sig pic.


A friend made it for me - he is a T-shirt designer, so I have it on a T-shirt as well... icon-hotrod.gif Nice to see you, by the way! Ever since my office blocks Transfans and TFW2005 I haven't really visited those boards.

And you are right, there is certainly something alien, almost Bayformer-ish in the new Megs design. However, IDW Shockwave has really shown no indication for leadership so far. He is a scientist, and more importantly, a survivor. He still has some backlash to fear from Megs due to his actions with creating Ore 13 behind his back, but given the current desperate situation of the Cons I doubt Megs would have brought that one up. Also, there is the thing with Soundwave... while Furman has shown him as an opportunist, Shane and Costa portrayed him again as the never-speaking (man, how I hated that in Dreamwave...) Megatron loyalist. I doubt Shockwave could have pulled a switch while he was watching over Megatron.

Then again, Shocky was working on a spacebridge... which would have allowed him to dump Megatron on Earth. (Why there, though, where he knows Decepticons and Autobots plus sentient, hostile life-forms with a grudge against cybertronians reside... that makes little sense).


Ah, I was wondering why you weren't on Transfans. Besides the frequent lack of debate etiquette there, I mean.

I don't really think my theory is really a theory, but rather an idea for where I would have taken things had I been in Costa's position. Don't think there's any way in hell he'd write something that unpredictable, unfortunately. If he had showed some clever tendencies in the past, I might have thought my idea possible, or at least something along those lines. As it is, I'm not really holding my breath that I might be wowed by something in the ongoing.


#14 Esser-Z

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 04:12 PM

QUOTE
Megatron's old P-38 alternate mode

TOY. NOW.

#15 Echowarrior

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 04:31 PM

QUOTE(Esser-Z @ Dec 10 2010, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
Megatron's old P-38 alternate mode

TOY. NOW.



...You do realize I'm talking about his old Walther P-38 alternate mode (and thus, his original G1 toy), and not some variety of aircraft, yes?

Seriously, that toy's been around since at least the eighties - probably longer. If you want one so bad, find one and buy one. Sheesh.


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#16 Esser-Z

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 05:41 PM

...Oh. Damn. That does make sense.

I was thinking one of these. Goldbox Highbrow is similar, but...

#17 Omaps321

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:43 PM

QUOTE(Commander Shockwav @ Dec 10 2010, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(BB Shockwave @ Dec 10 2010, 09:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Commander Shockwav @ Dec 9 2010, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Love that Shockwave sig pic.


A friend made it for me - he is a T-shirt designer, so I have it on a T-shirt as well... icon-hotrod.gif Nice to see you, by the way! Ever since my office blocks Transfans and TFW2005 I haven't really visited those boards.

And you are right, there is certainly something alien, almost Bayformer-ish in the new Megs design. However, IDW Shockwave has really shown no indication for leadership so far. He is a scientist, and more importantly, a survivor. He still has some backlash to fear from Megs due to his actions with creating Ore 13 behind his back, but given the current desperate situation of the Cons I doubt Megs would have brought that one up. Also, there is the thing with Soundwave... while Furman has shown him as an opportunist, Shane and Costa portrayed him again as the never-speaking (man, how I hated that in Dreamwave...) Megatron loyalist. I doubt Shockwave could have pulled a switch while he was watching over Megatron.

Then again, Shocky was working on a spacebridge... which would have allowed him to dump Megatron on Earth. (Why there, though, where he knows Decepticons and Autobots plus sentient, hostile life-forms with a grudge against cybertronians reside... that makes little sense).


Ah, I was wondering why you weren't on Transfans. Besides the frequent lack of debate etiquette there, I mean.

I don't really think my theory is really a theory, but rather an idea for where I would have taken things had I been in Costa's position. Don't think there's any way in hell he'd write something that unpredictable, unfortunately. If he had showed some clever tendencies in the past, I might have thought my idea possible, or at least something along those lines. As it is, I'm not really holding my breath that I might be wowed by something in the ongoing.


He sort of has Animated Longarm's color scheme minus the blue. Are we going to see another face-flipping switcheroo?
That would actually be very interesting.


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#18 Powered Convoy

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:13 AM

Interesting theory to be sure. I know I was like "WTF?" when I saw those last pages.

Randy

#19 Confuzor

Confuzor

    They put em in Smash Bros!!!!

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:57 PM

Did this chapter feel short to anyone else?

#20 Echowarrior

Echowarrior

    I write stuff...just not as much as I used to.

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 03:41 PM

QUOTE(Confuzor @ Dec 11 2010, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did this chapter feel short to anyone else?


It did feel as if it had a faster pace to it than previous issues did, which is probably a good thing.
William Rendfeld
That Echowarrior guy...
Author of "Transformers: Armada (Revisited)"- Allspark Fic of the Month for December 2005. Archive here.



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