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TSA up close and personal


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#1 Draange

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 08:06 PM

Pretty sure that there's no other topic on this (if there is I must be particularly oblivious)

TSA has ramped up "security" and America is is in a bit of an uproar. I don't know where to even begin so where do you all stand on this?
Personally I'm wishing that Amtrak had another line going through the midwest.

Mods: This might end up needing to be moved.

Edited by Draange, 15 November 2010 - 08:58 PM.


#2 MrBlud

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:01 PM

The massive intrusion into personal privacy, inane regulations, and pointless aggravation in no way matches the "safety benefit" or lack thereof.

The British had it right back during WWII.

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#3 Copper Bezel

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:09 PM

The protests are making the airlines and regulators look good, though - people refusing to fly because they don't want to walk through the scanners, where the security personnel - gasp - will theoretically be seeing a grainy, false-color image of their genitals.

High-speed rail cannot come fast enough, and if those projects get killed in the next couple of years ... yuck.

#4 Galenraff

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:48 PM

I'm thrilled that finally, FINALLY, there is an intrusion that's a step just far enough that regular, average people think it's too far and are getting into an uproar. The images aren't that grainy, albeit they are false-color, but they also very much ARE savable and ARE shared amongst TSA workers.

When the only options are "we see you naked" or "we grope your genitals" that's just wrong, and it makes me really really not want to fly.

The trouble is, that only works for a certain radius. If I go anywhere on the coasts, I don't have much of a choice, especially for business. 16 hour drives or train rides aren't a really viable alternative, no matter how despicable the TSA screenings are. And that's the problem - as wrong as this all is, and even though people are finally complaining, they'll still do it.

And you'll notice how after today's "don't grab my junk" incident, TSA was quick to issue their press release stating that the guy was detained, couldn't fly, AND may be charged in court AND charged $10,000. That's enough to keep people from causing trouble in line, speaking out, or really doing anything except shutting up and complying.

I'm afraid that people will just be upset for a bit, and then will get over it and obey.

Also totally agree on the need for high speed rail.

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#5 MintBerryCrunch

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:55 PM

Uhg.

Why can't the TSA ever take steps to provide ACTUAL security, rather than this theater play that merely gives the illusion of it to clueless people? America needs to grow a pair. You know what--flying is a risk. Any kind of travel carries some risk, and it's absurd to pretend that if every detail is scrutinized we can somehow fly risk free. How about screening checked baggage? To my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong) checked baggage screening is sporadic at best.
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#6 Mouse_Pad

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:00 PM

I'm definitely of the opinion that the TSA has gone too far. I tolerate it when I have to, but I sure as hell don't like it.

High-speed rail? Ha. Even in the dense northeast corridor, rail doesn't pay for itself. Besides, as soon as there's a bomb on the theoretical high-speed rail line, the nekkid scanners and groping will commence there.

(In before P&R.)
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#7 Copper Bezel

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:45 PM

That's probably true, and I hadn't really considered it. I don't see any reason the system wouldn't pay for itself once it became an actual viable option, though. Like, let's take away all intranational flights and toll-free interstates and see how it goes.

As much as the fining sounded like a dick move, absurdly so, I definitely took a different message away from "Don't Grope Me, Bro." I really, genuinely don't think it's all that unreasonable, and frankly I don't see any grand difference between having to take off my shoes and belt and having to board naked - I'm more worried about the (basically tax-supported) cost of the scanners and, as MintBerry noted, the fact that they don't address any real problems. And yeah, there's the basic gut reaction, liberty, something, security, something, neither, something something.

Edited by CopperRelays, 15 November 2010 - 10:46 PM.


#8 Lisbon Virgo

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:01 PM

Given how close those mail bombs from Yemen got to us, does BS like the body scanners and enforced groping really mean anything at this point?
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#9 Dake

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:11 PM

QUOTE(Squared Circle @ Nov 15 2010, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Given how close those mail bombs from Yemen got to us, does BS like the body scanners and enforced groping really mean anything at this point?


Nope.

The TSA is security theater at its worst. Anyone intent on doing harm will find other means. Airport workers such as rampers, cleaners and the guy who buses tables at the Chili's Too get to by-pass security. TSA workers only have to pass through security once, when they come on shift (and no - they don't get microwaved or molested) and then they can come and go and "beep" all day long without a second glance.

Any one of those people could easily meet someone and bring something through.

I've seen the "Enhanced Pat-down" though have yet to be subject to the groping so far and it's exactly as invasive as reports suggest.

I think as a guy it's bad enough, but guys imagine your moms, sisters or daughters. Now imagine a stranger forcing her to stand there as they run their hands up her legs and touch her vagina, place their hands on, between and below her breasts and grasping her buttocks. If someone did that to a woman in the mall or standing at a bus stop, they'd be arrested for sexual assault. Suddenly it's become "simply something you have to put up with to fly".
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#10 Rust

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:17 PM

Well if TSA wants to see me naked, they're going to have to buy me dinner first.

Edited by Rust, 15 November 2010 - 11:18 PM.

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#11 Copper Bezel

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 11:52 PM

I doubt these security personnel much care for their new jobs inspecting penises all day, but if you really feel a need to protest, there's an old-fashioned way of doing that. Put yourself in a happy place and think about someone nice, yeah?

Edit: But yes, seriously, are we going to spend billions of dollars on every specific thing that happens so that we can prove that if it could possibly happen again, it wouldn't? Are we really so intent on proving that we're just one step behind terror at every turn? Idiocy. I suppose they'll be banning commercial printer cartridges next. Hell, they might just go ahead and make it that brand. When a bomb is hidden inside a chicken dinner plate on the in-flight meal, they'll switch to beef.

Edited by CopperRelays, 15 November 2010 - 11:56 PM.


#12 Dake

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 12:24 AM

QUOTE(CopperRelays @ Nov 15 2010, 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I suppose they'll be banning commercial printer cartridges next. Hell, they might just go ahead and make it that brand.

Already done... really.
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#13 Copper Bezel

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 12:47 AM

Wow. I really can't come up with the next logical step in "pointlessly specific," then. I'll follow the regulators' own example and wait for them to provide it.

#14 CT-5555

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 03:24 AM

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#15 Rhinox

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 10:20 AM

How much money did we spend bailing out our airline companies? Yeah, kiss that investment goodbye.

At some point, we are going to have to accept that flying comes with risks. Risks that cannot be totally mitigated through security screenings. If some psycho out there wants to blow up a plane or kill people he will, and no amount of security can stop them all. in practicality, these scanners and gropings do nothing but infuriate and embarass everyone involved.

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#16 CORVUS

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 10:31 AM

Thus far, I have never flown. Looks like I won't get started anytime soon.

This is absolutely, positively asinine. I too am glad that people are in an uproar, but like Galen, I don't believe they'll complain for long. After a while, the majority will shrug and deal, and keep on bleating their way through the security lines like complicit sheep. Hopefully I'm wrong there, but I fear I'm not.

Edited by ^o^CORVUS^o^, 16 November 2010 - 10:32 AM.

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#17 Donocropolis

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 10:40 AM

QUOTE(Dake @ Nov 15 2010, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've seen the "Enhanced Pat-down" though have yet to be subject to the groping so far and it's exactly as invasive as reports suggest.

I think as a guy it's bad enough, but guys imagine your moms, sisters or daughters. Now imagine a stranger forcing her to stand there as they run their hands up her legs and touch her vagina, place their hands on, between and below her breasts and grasping her buttocks. If someone did that to a woman in the mall or standing at a bus stop, they'd be arrested for sexual assault. Suddenly it's become "simply something you have to put up with to fly".


Call me crazy or a conspiricy nut or what have you, but I get the feeling that the "enhanced patdowns" are calculated to be intentionally as horrendous as they are so that people will see the body scanners as the better alternative and start using them. After a while, the "lesser of two evils" will become just a thing you do.

#18 Mouse_Pad

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 10:57 AM

QUOTE(^o^CORVUS^o^ @ Nov 16 2010, 09:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thus far, I have never flown. Looks like I won't get started anytime soon.

This is absolutely, positively asinine. I too am glad that people are in an uproar, but like Galen, I don't believe they'll complain for long. After a while, the majority will shrug and deal, and keep on bleating their way through the security lines like complicit sheep. Hopefully I'm wrong there, but I fear I'm not.


Call me a sheep if you like, but I'm not going to let a few uncomfortable moments with a TSA agent prevent me from experiencing life outside my immediate area.

The last time I flew out of Memphis, I got both the nekkid photo and the molestation. It probably wasn't the "enhanced" molestation. When I flew back, out of LaGuardia, I didn't get either. Does that make sense?
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#19 Dake

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 12:13 PM

QUOTE(Donocropolis @ Nov 16 2010, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Dake @ Nov 15 2010, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've seen the "Enhanced Pat-down" though have yet to be subject to the groping so far and it's exactly as invasive as reports suggest.

I think as a guy it's bad enough, but guys imagine your moms, sisters or daughters. Now imagine a stranger forcing her to stand there as they run their hands up her legs and touch her vagina, place their hands on, between and below her breasts and grasping her buttocks. If someone did that to a woman in the mall or standing at a bus stop, they'd be arrested for sexual assault. Suddenly it's become "simply something you have to put up with to fly".


Call me crazy or a conspiricy nut or what have you, but I get the feeling that the "enhanced patdowns" are calculated to be intentionally as horrendous as they are so that people will see the body scanners as the better alternative and start using them. After a while, the "lesser of two evils" will become just a thing you do.


Nothing nutty about it. TSA reps have been quoted as saying exactly that. They want it to be so invasive that people will elect to be nuked instead. Oh, and remember when they said that those images are not stored in any way? Looks like they may have been exaggerating a bit.

Edited by Dake, 16 November 2010 - 12:13 PM.

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#20 Donocropolis

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 12:46 PM

QUOTE(Dake @ Nov 16 2010, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Donocropolis @ Nov 16 2010, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Dake @ Nov 15 2010, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've seen the "Enhanced Pat-down" though have yet to be subject to the groping so far and it's exactly as invasive as reports suggest.

I think as a guy it's bad enough, but guys imagine your moms, sisters or daughters. Now imagine a stranger forcing her to stand there as they run their hands up her legs and touch her vagina, place their hands on, between and below her breasts and grasping her buttocks. If someone did that to a woman in the mall or standing at a bus stop, they'd be arrested for sexual assault. Suddenly it's become "simply something you have to put up with to fly".


Call me crazy or a conspiricy nut or what have you, but I get the feeling that the "enhanced patdowns" are calculated to be intentionally as horrendous as they are so that people will see the body scanners as the better alternative and start using them. After a while, the "lesser of two evils" will become just a thing you do.


Nothing nutty about it. TSA reps have been quoted as saying exactly that. They want it to be so invasive that people will elect to be nuked instead. Oh, and remember when they said that those images are not stored in any way? Looks like they may have been exaggerating a bit.


So, basically they're admitting that they're not feeling you up to in any way make you safer, they're feeling you up as punishment for not wanting to use their newest scanner? In a related story, Walmart has instituted a policy under which if you leave the store without buying anything, you have to watch while they open-mouth kiss your mother.

Edited by Donocropolis, 16 November 2010 - 12:46 PM.




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