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@  TheMightyMol... : (26 August 2016 - 02:26 PM)

I dunno, maybe the big guy's saving it for a special ocassion.

@  MEDdMI : (26 August 2016 - 01:16 PM)

Your spouse's brother is a PRIEST. If you were supposed to get hit by lightning, it would've happened by now.

@  TheMightyMol... : (26 August 2016 - 11:31 AM)

Now I want to make devil's food cake with holy water just to see if I get hit by lightning or something.

@  Pennpenn : (26 August 2016 - 10:10 AM)

I hope not. Ruins the flavour.

@  MEDdMI : (26 August 2016 - 09:09 AM)

Did I put garlic or holy water in it or something?

@  Dracula : (26 August 2016 - 07:45 AM)

Cake? My only weakness! *bursts into flame*

@  MEDdMI : (26 August 2016 - 05:15 AM)

Happy Birthday! *rolls a giant cake into the Shoutbox*

@  Pennpenn : (26 August 2016 - 12:55 AM)

Happy birthday to me!

@  OrionPax44 : (25 August 2016 - 04:50 PM)

Is the main dance move him flashing you in beat with the music?

@  Broadside : (25 August 2016 - 04:50 PM)

http://i.imgur.com/qeoJpsf.jpg

@  TheMightyMol... : (25 August 2016 - 04:48 PM)

HEEEEEEEEEEY FOODSTAMP LAAADAAAY

@  Broadside : (25 August 2016 - 04:45 PM)

Oppa Homeless Style?

@  LV! : (25 August 2016 - 01:01 PM)

That guy had a perfectly nice home, he just didn't want the neighbors to see you with him.

@  TheMightyMol... : (25 August 2016 - 11:52 AM)

Did you at least buy him dinner?

@  Robowang : (25 August 2016 - 11:14 AM)

So I was making out with this random old homeless guy, and he stops and is all like "Why are you making out with me?" and I'm just like "Shut up, Homeless Guy."

@  Benbot : (25 August 2016 - 07:34 AM)

What?

@  MEDdMI : (25 August 2016 - 05:58 AM)

Aren't we the ones causing trouble for Kalidor?

@  LBD "Nyt... : (25 August 2016 - 12:17 AM)

Also, anyone know how to find the rest of how Kalidor got a kid in trouuuuuubleee?

@  LBD "Nyt... : (25 August 2016 - 12:11 AM)

@ TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 03:20 AM) Why do you hate yourself? -- I don't, really. Whether good or ill, I'd like to know how RG1 goes so, if nothing else, I can actually talk about it from a place of experience.

@  Verity Carlo : (24 August 2016 - 06:58 PM)

I've seen Minority Report, I don't want to read the same thing except with superheroes and also shit

@  Verity Carlo : (24 August 2016 - 06:57 PM)

You know, what I hate about Civil War II the most is that it's not even trying to break out of the Minority Report shaped hole it's in.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 02:39 PM)

the debate sems to be over.

@  MEDdMI : (24 August 2016 - 02:37 PM)

Wouldn't it be easier to debate this in the comics subforum?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:31 PM)

I don't have anything else to say (although I still think G2 is the true ending, even if G I Joe doesn't mention it, it seems G I Joe/G2 crossover isn't canon for G I Joe comics but only for the Transformers continuity)

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:29 PM)

ok whatever you won.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:27 PM)

that's why I said "if", I dunno I didn't read G2 or G I Joe. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:26 PM)

Also,you're still basing this entirely on G2 matching a storyline that was part of G2 itself rather than whether or not G2 matches better with the G1 comic proper.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:24 PM)

The idea kind of falls apart when it requires that the apocalyptic alien invasions had such little impact that everyone easily just ignored forever.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:17 PM)

If some issues of G I Joe comics is a prelude to G2 and if there's nothing in the future G I Joe stories that condradicts San Francisco getting destroyed, yes I would say they share a continuity. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:02 PM)

If you're gonna go "we can assume it did happen even though it's never talked about as long as nothing specifically contradicts it", then surely it's just as easy to assume that the actual G1 TF and Joe crossover happened in the backstory of Classics and RG1.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:02 PM)

also I refrained from mentioning Ask Vector Prime but but didn't it say RG1 is a splinter timeline?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:58 PM)

has san francisco ever appeared in G I Joe stories that was chronologically set after G2?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:55 PM)

Intent is not the same as result. And comics end up ignoring things quite often.

@  Telly : (24 August 2016 - 12:54 PM)

maybe they figured a lot of people that read gi joe also read transformers. so they throw a crossover/build up in their to get some excitement for the new comic coming

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:51 PM)

If G2 universe was to be unrelated to G I Joe, why did they do a prelude to it?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:33 PM)

Classics and RG1 not including Joe issues 138-145 in their backstory does not preclude them from including TF 1-80, or even the Joe and TF miniseries.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 12:30 PM)

Marvel 616 is also a massive continuity snarl from dozens of writers altering, retconning, or ignoring each others' work for decades, so it's not really a great example for an argument on continuity.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:29 PM)

Marvel 616 continuity is a shared universe, devastating events happens in individual series but does mean every event gets mentioned in other comics? @Notvery knightly, yeah that's why I edited that post.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:27 PM)

Your proof for "TF universe = Joe universe" itself is the G2 lead-up, so your reasoning still goes back to G2 matching G2.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 12:25 PM)

So did GI Joe ever reference the time Bludgeon sent his entire force to rampage across the Earth? Or the time Jhiaxus blew San Francisco into a crater?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:25 PM)

whatever.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:22 PM)

Are you not seeing the recursiveness of "G2 is the true G1 sequel because G2 follows up on a G2 storyline"?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:18 PM)

Yeah it has been established that Marvel Transformers and G I Joe comics takes place in the same universe. Unless 90s G I Joe was a reboot I'm pretty sure the G2 crossing over to a G I Joe comic that takes place in the very same universe as the original Transformers makes G2 the canon ending.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:16 PM)

A crossover that the Joe comic apparently ignored.

@  Arazyr : (24 August 2016 - 12:15 PM)

They had a crossover before that, 1986. http://tfwiki.net/wi...he_Transformers

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:15 PM)

Did G.I. Joe acknowledge the planet getting wrecked by the Swarm? Because otherwise it's more like "Marvel Transformers is the same universe as Marvel G.I. Joe only when they feel like it".

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:11 PM)

You're using the G.I. Joe G2 prequel itself as the basis for "Marvel Transformers universe is the same universe as the Marvel G I Joe", which makes this a rather loopy argument.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:07 PM)

As I said before, Marvel Transformers universe is the same universe as the Marvel G I Joe. Marvel G I Joe crossovers with G2, which makes G2 the canon ending. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:59 AM)

How is that relevant to whether or not RG1 (or Classics, even) takes place after issues 1 through 80 of Marvel TF proper?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:51 AM)

it's a prequel to G2, which makes it the same universe as G2.


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Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Starter Set Review


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35 replies to this topic

#1 Kalidor

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 12:10 AM

As resources allow, one thing I'm going to start introducing on the site is a more general side of things. This will include anything from new games (video or otherwise), DVDs or anything we generally talk about here.

To kick it off, here's a review of the newest offering from Wizards of The Coast -- the new Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Roleplaying Game: An Essential D&D Starter (4th Edition D&D) released today (Sept 7th)

http://www.allspark....t/view/7778/18/

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#2 Joker

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 06:56 AM

It sounds pretty solid.

Me and my friends have been playing 4th since it came out and our campaign is almost at the point of winding down. I might get this just as a novelty and I may run a one shot adventure with characters made using the method presented in the box.

#3 Vestras

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 08:09 AM

Sounds decent enough. How much gameplay would you expect the box to provide? Is it a single encounter/quest beyond the tutorial, or is it enough you could start making your own campaign without having to buy a couple hundred bucks in game books?

I admit, I would like to give 4e a shot, I hear it's pretty streamlines and MMO like in terms of player rolls now which has some appeal to me.
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#4 Kalidor

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 08:40 AM

There's a pretty well fleshed out adventure in the DM book that picks up where the solo adventure leaves off. It's a straight dungeon crawl with about 7 or so encounters, along with tips for creating your own adventures, encounters and a mini-monster manual filled with the stuff you find during your dungeon adventure.

It's enough to get you started. Of course, as with any D&D game it's going to be limited by how much you put into it. I'd say it wouldn't take too terrible long to outgrow what's presented. I think the highest level thing you fight is level 5 or so.

But there is a dungeon, and there is a dragon, so it lives up to its name icon-hotrod.gif

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#5 Esser-Z

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 09:24 AM

Essentials is something I still need to look into. I generally play more 3.x (mainly modifications like Pathfinder, now) than 4e, but I do enjoy 4e. From what I've read, I don't like Essentials as a replacement for the other 4e stuff, but it's not supposed to be. Could be an interesting addition to the available options.

#6 ultra magnus13

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:28 AM

I hear 4th edition is pretty much pen and paper WOW. Is this true? What about 3rd? I've only ever played AD&D 2nd.
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#7 Esser-Z

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 11:30 AM

Not WoW, no. Not really. However, it does have a very much more gamist outlook on previous editions. For example, all effects from spells and the like are in square areas, for ease of mapping. This results in fireball being a cube.

#8 Kalidor

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 09:04 PM

I just remembered why I feel like I got conned into buying the 4E books. When they came out, in 2007, the promise was that in a month or so after launch we'd have this awesome virtual tabletop to play on. Shortly after that, it was revealed there'd be a monthly fee to use it (wtf) and even 3 years later it still hasn't been developed.

The ONLY reason I bought the 4E core books (along with my friends) was due to the Virtual Gaming table. We feel like we got suckered into spending 90 bucks each and none of us were very happy about it.

We went from waiting until the tools came out to play to saying "Oh, I think I have those 'new' books somewhere, but whatever"

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#9 Esser-Z

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 09:11 PM

When you could have downloaded Maptool for FREE!

#10 Kalidor

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 09:22 PM

Not really the point icon-waspy.gif but I will check it out.

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#11 ultra magnus13

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 10:09 PM

Yeah I snagged a sweet virtual table top program someone one here posted awhile back, I think it was maptool.
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#12 Kalidor

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 10:31 PM

Find me one that looks as good as this and I'll be happy.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

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#13 BB Shockwave

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 06:44 AM

4E is a really streamlined, or - if I want to be (chaotic) evil - dumbed down version of D&D for today's younger generations, who do not want to bother with long and well-thought out adventures, they want fast combat and great rewards.

The new Monster Manuals are a great example of this. Being a biologist, I always loved to read about the monster's ecology, place in the world, behaviour... Instead, we now only have the descriptions of how the creatures attack, and you have short "Monster Lore" blurbs which is what you know of the things if you roll the dice right. Reducing the previously well-developed bestiary into grey-ish cannon fodder to be slaughtered for XP. The encounter groups also feel forced and (sorry) WOW-ish, like descriptions such as "You can encounter Balors together with Efreeti and Salamanders" - WTF, three totally unrelated monsters hanging around? Oh wait, they are all on FIRE. Makes sense now, no? icon-arcee.gif

Throwing out the Alignment system, and the totally free cast-choosing was something that already began during 3E, political correctness in D&D, I thought I'd never see the day, but apparently people wanted to play Elf Barbarians, Halfling Paladins and Half-Orc Wizards. Still the alignments are my main beef - now there are evil paladins too, and alignment is reduced to all creatures being Evil or Unaligned. A pity, because the 3x3 alignment system was one of the best in any RPG.

I wonder what 5E will be like - it's surely around the next corner, after all, ever since Hasbro took over, they are rebooting the franchise every few years just like they are doing with Transformers. You'd have thought Hasbro taking over D&D would have at least resulted in mainstream awesome toys, but nope, Orcus is a pricey exclusive now and Lords of Madness will most likely be the last D&D Mini booster.

Edited by BB Shockwave, 09 September 2010 - 06:46 AM.

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#14 1stStageMidboss

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 07:02 AM

Essentials sounds interesting. Not something I want, already having the PHB, DMG, MM and a few other books (plus an Insider subscription, though it's a few months out of date now), but I think it's a great idea and I hope it gets more people into the hobby.

QUOTE(BB Shockwave @ Sep 9 2010, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
4E is a really streamlined, or - if I want to be (chaotic) evil - dumbed down version of D&D for today's younger generations, who do not want to bother with long and well-thought out adventures, they want fast combat and great rewards.

The new Monster Manuals are a great example of this. Being a biologist, I always loved to read about the monster's ecology, place in the world, behaviour... Instead, we now only have the descriptions of how the creatures attack, and you have short "Monster Lore" blurbs which is what you know of the things if you roll the dice right. Reducing the previously well-developed bestiary into grey-ish cannon fodder to be slaughtered for XP. The encounter groups also feel forced and (sorry) WOW-ish, like descriptions such as "You can encounter Balors together with Efreeti and Salamanders" - WTF, three totally unrelated monsters hanging around? Oh wait, they are all on FIRE. Makes sense now, no? icon-arcee.gif

Throwing out the Alignment system, and the totally free cast-choosing was something that already began during 3E, political correctness in D&D, I thought I'd never see the day, but apparently people wanted to play Elf Barbarians, Halfling Paladins and Half-Orc Wizards. Still the alignments are my main beef - now there are evil paladins too, and alignment is reduced to all creatures being Evil or Unaligned. A pity, because the 3x3 alignment system was one of the best in any RPG.


Eh, I always found alignment to be awkward and restrictive. There's no real need in D&D for a system which says if someone is good or bad, it just makes it harder to run intrigue and mystery when the Paladin can just Detect Evil on every villain. "Playing to alignment" is almost never a good thing, as shown by how many people have complained over the years about badly-played Paladins.

Overall, I think 4e's better because it knows it's a game and it focuses on that. It makes sense that the rules are about combat, because there's far more need for rules there. It is a shame having less fluff in the Monster Manuals nowadays, but that's never been a huge problem for me. There's nothing in the game stopping you from having "long and well-thought out adventures", just as the older versions could do "fast combat and great rewards". Hell, fast combat is generally not and advantage of 4e, especially if you're using the earlier monsters (newer ones tend to deal more damage and have less HP to prevent combat getting long and dull).

I don't play 4e at the moment, but that's because it takes too long for my group so we switched to Savage Worlds (which I might stop too because we're off to seperate universities and frankly I'm not a good GM.)

Edited by Amadeus Windfall, 09 September 2010 - 07:04 AM.

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#15 Esser-Z

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 07:03 AM

Free class choosing is a good thing. Alignment's importance varies by game--mine tend to just use it as a basic indicator. But, 4e's dumbing down was pretty bad, yes.

For Paladins, I definitely prefer the evil ones having a different name, even if they have the same features (With alignment based things mirrored). A paladin is supposed to be a champion of good, somebody you know to be reliable and heroic just based on their job title (Except the ones that are dicks, but that's not how I run them.)

I 100% agree with you on the monster manuals. Even the 3.x ones--my preferred edition, in general, if you include Pathfinder as 3.x--were starting to lose some of the glory of the 2e manuals. I tend to read the 2e Monster Manuals for flavor and plot hook ideas (the 'what part of this creature is valuable' and 'how this creature interacts with civilization' bits are GLORIOUS for that), then use the 3.5 ones for the actual stats--could do the same with 4e, in theory.

And don't forget the absurdity of some of those lore entries. DC15: Cave bears live in caves. DC20: BEARS MAUL YOU WITH THEIR CLAWS.

I resent rituals, as the replacement for non-combat spells, because they simply don't do the job well. There's no more on the fly utility--one of my favorite aspects of 3.x spellcasting.

The combat, though, I do enjoy. It's very much more gamist, such that I almost consider 4e more a Chainmail followup than a D&D edition. It's fun to play, yes. I'm not as fond of DMing it as previous editions, though--I don't like how NPCs and monsters are built completely differently from PCs.

I don't play it as my primary edition of D&D for a few reasons. The lack of utility bothers me. The skill system did make some good decisions--consolidating the stealth and perception skills instead of having several to take--but it dropped some stuff I like to take (like perform and craft), and I prefer skill points to a binary system. It also gives me a harder time than usual with suspension of disbelief. Things like Storm Pillar. This is a wizard spell that creates a, well, storm pillar that damages those near it. Sounds simple, right? Weeeelll... For balance reasons, it's errataed (HOW DO I SPELL THIS) to only hurt things that willingly move up to it. This way, the party can't use forced movement powers to rack up damage; back in my day, this wasn't unbalanced. It was a combo.

Or the spell Grease. Rather than simulate a slippery surface, it's more like Mordenkainen's Mischievous Gravity Vortex. The wizard gets to slide people around in any direction he wants! A viable spell, not so much a viable implementation of Grease. And then there's Firecube and it's ilk...

A bit more positively, the game IS balanced, especially compared to the power level discrepancy nightmare that was 3.x. On the other hand... they go about it the wrong way. Rather than limit spellcasters some and raise up melee, they bring everybody to a level barely above the old Fighter, especially when it comes to ongoing effects (most (de)buffs only last a round or two at most!) and affecting the outside world. (I note that, in practice, I've never really had issues with the 3.x balance, either. In theory it's incredibly broken, but a good group does fine). Balance is a noble goal, but I feel too much was sacrificed for it.

To be ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE for a bit, there're some 4e things I absolutely love (and they go well together!): The implementation of Genasi, who I really need to look at the 3.x stats for sometime, and the Warlord class. The Warlord is an archetype I love: frontline tactician, inspiring and leading his/her team to glory. In 3.x, you could try the Marshall class, but it didn't work very well. A White Raven martial adept (Tome of Battle is a wonderful book) could do it to some extent, but not fully. The best option was really Bard, which doesn't fit the idea quite right. Warlords are awesome. I need to write up a 3.x version.

I also appreciate that it's actually possible to tank and protect the squishes viably in 4e. I like the design of the Fighter's class features quite a bit--I plan to take some inspiration from them, along with the glorious ToB, if I ever get around to writing the 3.x Fighter fix (other than just using Warblade) I keep meaning to do. The power system has its ups and downs, but for Fighters at least it does a very good job of differentiating combat tactics based on weapon choice. They really should get plate, though.

I can talk for a long time about this--if anyone wants to IM me, my AIM's on my profile. D&D is one of my passions, and I like analyzing what I like and dislike. I may sound quite negative about 4e, but that's simply due to it using a different game design philosophy than my primary tastes. I will definitely say it's a good game, and I enjoy it. I will also say that I prefer previous editions of D&D for my D&D playing.


QUOTE
There's no real need in D&D for a system which says if someone is good or bad, it just makes it harder to run intrigue and mystery when the Paladin can just Detect Evil on every villain.

Fortunately, there are ways to mask alignment, which any BBEG worth his or her salt will have access to. icon-hotrod.gif


Also, if anyone wants to try to get an Allspark D&D game (either 3.PF or 4e) going, I'm totally interested. Would even be willing to GM, though might end up going with published adventures if I do--already am running a weekly game, so.

Edited by Esser-Z, 09 September 2010 - 07:04 AM.


#16 Rhinox

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 09:23 AM

I run a 4th ed game every week. It does feel similar to an MMO, though ironically, DDO is based on 3.5 rules. I do have some issues where I feel they streamlined too much, but overall, I find it's a very good game, decently balanced, though it does tend to overfavor the players rather than the monsters. I've really had to go way above challenge rating to find monsters that are worth my player's time as they mop the floor with anything their level or lower.

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#17 Vestras

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 10:46 AM

I haven't been to an actual D&D game since AD&D2nd ed back around...sweet zombie jebus... 97...

I do want to scratch this itch, so what can you tell me about how things have changed since then in simple terms, and other than this starter kit, what's the best way to try getting up to speed for either 4e or 3.X?
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#18 1stStageMidboss

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 11:10 AM

I don't know if there's really a good way to get into 3.X these days... the Pathfinder core book maybe? I think this set is probably the best way to get into modern D&D, especially for its cost.
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#19 RAC

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 11:29 AM

Really dumb question: is that picture on the review page really what the box looks like? Because I may end up buying this if so, just for nostalgia's sake.

Edited by RAC, 09 September 2010 - 11:31 AM.



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#20 Esser-Z

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 11:37 AM

QUOTE(Amadeus Windfall @ Sep 9 2010, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't know if there's really a good way to get into 3.X these days... the Pathfinder core book maybe? I think this set is probably the best way to get into modern D&D, especially for its cost.

Weelll... You can get in for free. d20srd.org and d20pfsrd.org, for 3.5 and PF respectively, plus a person willing to walk you through stuff to start with will work fine!