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TF: Cybertron vs. ...the rest...


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#1 perceptor@unicron.com

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 09:45 AM

> I am a huge transformers fan have been as long as I can remember, and though
> I did love g1 and almost revered it when I was younger I am truly a beast
> wars fan at heart.

Hi Geoff, In this respect you and I are exactly alike. G1 stuff got me interested when I was a little kid, this got me started w/ the whole collection and frankly the nostalgia factor makes G1 a classic. To the extent that I don't really like comparing it to other series. I mean c'mon it was 20+ years ago! But what drove my interest level over the edge, and got me to be the fanatic I am today is Beast Wars.

> I have a modest collection compared to you, mines only
> 150 some ought tfs.
Well, it does help immensely that I have two brothers. It's more considered "our collection" than mine. Although since I'm the oldest, I do probably have the most, but together we can strive for the elusive goal of having them, "all".

> Anyway I'm givin ya my friggin lifes story here. I
> don't get the huge excitement over the new series tf cybertron its exactly
> the same as its previous incarnations (Armada and RID)...bad.

I agree that RID and Armada cartoons are were pretty aweful. That is to say, it's almost completely unwatchable. I tried really hard to get myself to enjoy those shows. I just couldn't. REALLY bad writing, really bad voice over, really bad animation (Armada especially...) I tried very hard to get myself to enjoy it, I just couldn't. The toys, however, I thought were quite good and what saved Armada >>> the COMICS. Today, I look at the comic series storyline as "cannon" and how that fits in w/ the rest of TF uiniverse (that's why I used comics pix almost exclusively for Armada toy's character pages...)

Red alert for example. I must've reread many of those issues 50 times over. Loved the series and made Armada all worthwhile. RID, I pretty much just write off. Great toys, terrible show, no comics, no connection to other TF continuities...

Energon: I think they (Hasbro/Takara) took everything of Armada and improved it a notch. GREAT toys, even better than Armada (and more of them!) Not great shows, but not nearly as bad as Armada. Energon did have a few really good episodes. Did you see the one where Unicron destroys 3 different planets, the autobots try to stop him, but fail miserably?! That show kicked arse! This series voice over didn't seem too good (listening to Kicker *scream* out every line whether he was in the heat of battle or having a casual conversation w/ Ironhide especially grated on my nerves!) better animation (tho still not great) and a story line with potential, carried out better than Armada but not as good as it could've been. Here's the trick to watching Energon. Watch it on DVD, then just fast forward every part that has Kicker w/ extended talking part... icon-hotrod.gif That helps a lot!

Cybertron, let's talk about that more later...

> I just can't
> watch the dubbed over voices even with David Kaye
> doing Megatron its gawd awful. He was swesome in beast wars gave that
> megatron such presence. And what is really sad is the toys are so great and
> i know the shows going to fail infact I gurantee that cybertron will be gone
> within 2 years if not sooner.

(And you thought you were giving me your life story! I bet you weren't expecting to get this kind of a novel back in response!!!) Okay, here's where I strongly disagree. I think Cybertron shows are overall darn good. And there are parts in the show where his (DKaye) voice is every bit as intimidating as it was in the beast wars era...

My brothers give me a hard time, thinking that I put too much energy trying to connect the different universes of TF. But I see them all as being totally interconnected. G1 happened in 1984-2007 earth time. Beast Wars are characters from the Cybertron the earth year ~2400 that go back in time ~a million B.C. They return to a time beyond from when they came 2400+ and fought Beast Machines storyline. I like to think of Armada, En, cybertron Optimus/Megatron as the same characters (hey it's easy to imagine! they're even voiced by the same people!) only in the pre 2400 era. By 2400 Megatron becomes the true evil genius he is seen in Beast Wars/Machines. Lets pretend Armada is ~2150. In that time frame Armada Meg is pretty much an idiot leader. By 2160 (energon is said to have taken place around 10 years later) he gets a little smarter and better at ruling his troops. By 2170 Cybertron Megs is starting to get things figured out... ah >>>>>character development!<<<<<<<<<<

I'm going to guess that you haven't watched many episodes of TF: Cybertron. I think they're WAY better than Armada, and significantly better than Energon. I still put season 2 as the best TF series of all time but the truth is, I had a romanticized view of Beast Wars. These episodes were *not* perfect either. For one thing, I wish that BW had more episodes. I would've liked to see more characters (Magnaboss, Tripredacus Manterror, TM2 Scourge.....) And lets face it, BW had its share of "groan" moments. Like the Rhinox bean farting episode, all of the Blackarachnia/silverbolt "kissing" wierdness. How would metal robots kiss anyway and what possible purpose would that have?!

I LOVED Beast Wars, don't get me wrong. but I think they had a bit of a tendency to anthropomorphize (hope I spelled that right, what I mean is "human-ize") the robots more than I'd like. That point is, it was a GREAT show that also had a few stinker (punn intended) moments.

>>And that's the way I see Cybertron. I think they drew out the speed planet storyline a bit long, I think the Beast Planet stuff could have been made a little more rich and interesting... BUT, there have been some GREAT moments. The last 5 episodes of "season1" ROCKED!!!! You tell me you've seen Megatron whip out that machine gun and do some serious damage?? It's EASILY as good as any fight scene in Beast Wars. There are moments in Cyb which I consider even better than BW. How about when Megatron first arrives on Velocitron and 'introduces' himself to Override? What did ya think of THAT scene?!? How about when Megs and Starscream first arrive on Jungle planet and "introduce themselves" to Scourge... Seriously, these are episodes I can watch again and again and I don't get tired of. I think they're great and easily stand up to some of the best story telling moments of Beast Wars, G1, Armada, etc...

FURTHERMORE, look at where the series is going! What's the point of all these "silly little planet keys" is it just some lame plot device fabricated to give the characters something to fight over to have them stockpile like energon? NO!!!!!!! These keys are each a fragment of the spark of Primus! What they're fighting over is the ultimate prize! it will allow them to transform the very planet of Cybertron!!!! Into what else?!?! PRIMUS!!! (By the way, the toy absolutely hauls keester! I think it'll go down in history as easily one of the best Transformers of all time....)

It is possible that the second half shows won't live up to my, now fairly high, expectations. But if these second half episodes are as good as the first half ones (and I try not to watch ahead, fan subed Galaxy Force episodes...) then I think that Cybertron has a potential to eclipse or at least match the coolness of Beast Wars. And THAT, is saying a lot given how much I loved that series!

> And its even more frustrating knowing that
> its goning to fail for exactly the same reasons its previous incarnations
> did.
Well, Cybertron will end. But I don't think it's fair to say that this or other series "failed". The plan from the start was that each series last about a year and a half then move into another story arc. Cybertron series will most certainly come to an end, if for no other reason than that they're going to make way for Transformers live action movie which will become the mainstream line. I imagine they'll be putting all their energy into trying to create a new generation of younger fans that love the "G1" style. Earth style vehicle alternate modes...

The fact that the series ends, doesn't mean it's not successful. If lets say, Energon were not successful, the measure of that would be that the next TF line would not have as many of Hasbro's dollar resources into developing it. The fact that Energon had jeeze like what about a hundred + toys... We can say it was "successful" by virtue of the fact that the next series, Cybertron, had an even better cartoon (more money put into it, or at least so it seems) as many or more toys, and continued development of other lines: Alternators, more Legends of Cybertron, more Mini-con vs. packs, now StarWars TFs, Titanium... That to me is the measure that a line is successful. (By that same logic, I'd say it's safe to assume that TF: Universe was not real successful!)

> I dont' know how other members of the tf community don't see it maybe
> I'm alone I hope I'm not. Guess thats pretty much my question, am I alone
> in this opinion?

Well, I certainly cannot speak for every other TF fan out there. But among those I talk to, many/most are enjoying Cybertron as much as I am. Frankly, I hope you're more a minority. Cybertron toys are total sweetness and I wish they'd keep it going another couple years! Here's my recommendation, watch the series, in its entirey and see if you don't have a change of heart...

Thanks for writing, interesting topic!

SO, WHAT DO OTHER FANS THINK??? HOW DO YOU THINK TF:CYBERTRON COMPARES W/ OTHER ERAS OF TF HISTORY????? icon-depth.gif

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#2 UltimusPrime

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 12:51 PM

Funny I was thinking about starting this exact topic this morning.

First I have to say that I have been a fan of www.unicron.com for some time. I visit the site probably 5 days a week and I have one of the Unicron tee-shirts that I wear quite often.

That said, Percepetor, I could almost ditto you. A fan really needs to look at the over-all show, not pick out each particular good or bad episode. Each series has good or bad episodes, regardless as to whether they're carttons or live action.

G1 - Hey, it is TF history. Whether you were around back then (I was 15 when it started) or not, like the series or not, it IS the reason for TF's. It started it all. It made TF's famous. They took Diaclone toys, changed the names, added a cartoon series, fleshed out the characters, and bang, comics, books, and several subsequent series followed. So I agree with you trying to tie everything together. I hate multiple universes. I won't re-hash my argument for not having them, just suffice to say they show a weakness in writers. And it seems that the A/E/C universe is tied into G1, as was done in the flash-back scene in one of the recenlty aired episodes (sorry I don't remember the name). I'm pretty sure those were G1 Autobots.

BW - Hey, it IS the reason for the new TF fever. It was able to revive an almost dead franchise. And with the limit of characters it shows what happens when writers actually put an effort into the story lines, and heart into characters. I consider it the best of the series.

BM - While it will probably go down as having the worst toys in comparison to their animation models, it is IMHO the second best series. Come on, the enslavement of an entire planet? Can we say, "what a risk!" Can we say, "true peril?"

RID - Typical Japanimation crap. But the toys were pretty cool looking.

Armada - Honestly, after the episodes started going bad I just kept watching it hoping it would get better. In the end I think I watched it just to see how it would end. Although seeing the recent screen captures by Benson Yee at www.bwtf.com have made me a little nystalgic (that caught me by surprise).

Energon - I enjoyed this. It showed promise. While Kicker kept irritating me and I was SO hoping someone would accidentially step on him and squash him, in the end I was very statisfied. Oh and the toys ROCKED!

Cybertron - Easily showing that the writers are learning. While many characters are involved they are only involved for a short period and are given more characterization then in Armada or Energon. (Anyone seen Clocker lately?) They have more of what we want and less of what we don't. I have only seen up to episode 32, where we first see Megs. ghost. But here is the TRUE problem with the series, Cartoon Network and the constant re-runs (so it really isn't the series but the network). Seriously, what has the first season been re-run something like 5 times? A person could lose interest in the show very fast when nothing new is coming out. But I love Primus! I don't have him yet (Percepter color me green with envy) but the reviews I've read makes him seem pretty awesome.

That's my 2 cents. Does anyone know what series will take over after Cybertron?

#3 Byrerprime

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 03:10 PM

Well, if you look back at G1 and realize how horrible they were in comparison to Cybertron, you might wonder how we ever became fans. Like the two posters before me, I was a teen when they came out in '84. The Girl Who Loved Powerglide? Hoist Goes Hollywood? Anything with Raul and Tracks in it. The Armada kids were cool compared to him. These episodes were eclipsed by The Key to Vector Sigma and others. The first two miniseries were awesome and most of season 3 rocked. I watched Cybertron over and over to glean information for unicron.com character pages and I never got tired of it. The first 26 I had my VCR set to tape every day and when I got home Friday I would watch all five. I'm almost glad we don't have comics for this series because they always clash in some way.

As far as more characters in Beast Wars, I think that would have watered down the stories so to speak. With the computer generation, they could only have five per side. And Tigatron and Blackarachnia use the same basic model as Cheetor and Tarantulas, respectively. That would make Airazor the first new model, right? I read that Wolfang was supposed to be the first new character instead of Tigatron, but they changed it because of the animation model. If you have the BW DVD's, watch Tigatron's parts with that in mind. I could see Wolfang in that lone-wolf role (obvious pun intended) more than Tigatron. I wonder where that would have left Silverbolt?

RID was completely Japanese. Hasbro had no ties to Takara during the process. Hasbro thought the toys were an easy buck, and the shows were mildly popular to the (much) younger crowd that's used to Pokemon type shows.

Armada and Energon were jointly created by Takara and Hasbro, with Hasbro giving most of the control to Takara. With Cybertron, Hasbro actually vested a little interest in the shows, and Takara hired a new production company. When the second half was supposed to come out, I was so excited, but we waited four months just to get cancelled after six new ones. It's like pulling teeth (sorry, Kevin).

And I can hardly wait for the movie.

#4 Mighty Maximal

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 09:00 PM

Personally I often press Mute when Ever Kicker speaks for more than a few seconds - It's tempting to do the same with Bulkhead and Ironhide too.

I like One thing a lot about Cybertron / Galaxy Force and that is that it's not as nuetered as Armada was the characters actually fire proper missile and get hit by weapons - sure it's not up to Beast Wars levels of Damage but it's done in a non embarrassing way - unlike Energon Optimus sitting in a pile of his own bits or loosing the umpteenth set of combination drones to enemy fire.

Oh and I don't think the Movie line is the Main line for 2007 the mainline post Cybertron is the Classics line which may not last long - I suspect that Hasbro is deliberately holding off deciding what they will from late 2007 and onwards.

They could extended the supposed Movie Prequel Cartoon into a full show, they could make a sequel cartoon or a cartoon based on the Movie in the same way X-Men Evolution is based on Singer's X-Men or they could simply make a show or a series of DVD one off based on Classics or Alternators.

There is a persistant rumor of an Alternators based One off DVD release or Comicbook that will not go away (like what you get for Bionicles).

They might even decide to market The classic line with a show - but all I hear so far is talk that it will be a short run 2 wave thing.

Personally I think Hasbro are waiting and not deciding and we will have a gap of half a year or longer with no show there is to many factors up in the air at the moment.

Takara-Tomy is still sorting itself out and they claim no interest in making any form of kids TF line... But that does not preclude the release of the Classics line as they did say that in a fairly short term way like 6 months or so.

So perhaps the classics line will get a show but only months after it's toy debut like Beast Wars did and Takara-Tomy will get it out in Japan after Hasbro does in America & Canada.

I don't think the Movie line can ever bee seen as the "main brand" unless its as a short release after the Classics line and before a subsequent line.

But I'd be surprised if they did not have something else in mind - perhaps they might tell us what's on their mind at a future attended Comic Convention or Botcon.

But I don't think the Movie line is anything other than another flanker brand - all be it a more widely distributed one than some have been.

If only because there is not enough characters to make a line out of - unless they make Cybertronian mode versions of the Characters two or add non Movie featured characters to the line.

Perhaps the Movie line could be a "starting point" for something else though in the way the Fanatastic Four Movie figures blended into the other FF toyline without a break.

Personally I'd be happier with a Few Movie toys and an extended life for the Classics line.

#5 Lazy Garou

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 08:04 PM

I might be new to this but, I simply loved beast wars, the characters were very well made and made people feel guilty for watching a "TV show for kids" . The problem I see here is the same that star wars fans have with the new movies: they want to feel exactly what they felt the first time they saw the movie. In the case of the unicron trilogy (as hasbro names it) the problem is the lack of a truly solid structure in the way the story is told the extensive change in production and animation companies makes it a little difficult to stick around. Personally I liked cybertron a lot because of the epic feel that transformers had(Cyb prime is just packed with some of the coolest weaponry of the transformers mythos) and it had the potential to be one of the best TF stories ever told ,but something was missing according to some of my friends, they could?nt tell me what it was just that there was a missing thing a little meaningful lot that someone forgot. I think transformers in general are very difficult for some people to understand because despite looking very human in some aspects, they are still alien machines and if you stick to the concept, they will perceive the world in a way far different than humans do and that simply can make a writer?s life hell. It's not just putting a human long ears and making it live forever in a tree.
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#6 bellprime

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 12:20 PM

Transformers Cybertron is one of the best shows in the whole 25 year history. I got all the toys I could. I also got the Ultimate Collection DVD. Need I say more? How about the reveal of the creator, CYBERTRON PRIMUS, The greatest Transformer next to Optimus Prime.

Edited by bellprime, 09 December 2008 - 10:40 PM.


#7 perceptor@unicron.com

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 04:34 PM

Now in looking back on this post, I suspect TF Cybertron will be seen as much more than a blip in the TF radar of history. Greatly over shadowed by Beast Wars, Animated and the Live movies. Unfortunate, considering how outstanding were the toys.

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#8 Echowarrior

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 06:26 PM

QUOTE(perceptor@unicron.com @ May 7 2009, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Now in looking back on this post, I suspect TF Cybertron will be seen as much more than a blip in the TF radar of history. Greatly over shadowed by Beast Wars, Animated and the Live movies. Unfortunate, considering how outstanding were the toys.


There are some of us who will happily remember and enjoy Cybertron, as much for the toys as the show's general improvement over Armada and Energon. Say what you will, there's only one part for Cybertron that marks it inferior to its two predecessors in my mind - the lack of a proper comic book.

Yet another reason why I don't like Pat Lee.


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#9 TerraEsperZ

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 09:09 PM

Unfortunately, I never could get into the Cybertron cartoon (the toys rocked though, no question there). I only found it good when compared to Armada and Energon. It's not that it doesn't have interesting ideas and potential, but it just wasn't exploited well and it still feels, to me, like a below average Japanese cartoon. Everything in the actual storytelling and pacing feels completely off compared to the recent Western shows like Beast Wars and Animated.

Edited by TerraEsperZ, 19 November 2009 - 09:10 PM.


#10 cybertron2009

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 10:44 PM

I thought the RiD cartoon was good. It brought back Ultra Magnus, Optimus Prime, Prowl, Fort Maximus, and Galvatron.

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