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@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 02:39 PM)

the debate sems to be over.

@  MEDdMI : (24 August 2016 - 02:37 PM)

Wouldn't it be easier to debate this in the comics subforum?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:31 PM)

I don't have anything else to say (although I still think G2 is the true ending, even if G I Joe doesn't mention it, it seems G I Joe/G2 crossover isn't canon for G I Joe comics but only for the Transformers continuity)

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:29 PM)

ok whatever you won.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:27 PM)

that's why I said "if", I dunno I didn't read G2 or G I Joe. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:26 PM)

Also,you're still basing this entirely on G2 matching a storyline that was part of G2 itself rather than whether or not G2 matches better with the G1 comic proper.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:24 PM)

The idea kind of falls apart when it requires that the apocalyptic alien invasions had such little impact that everyone easily just ignored forever.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:17 PM)

If some issues of G I Joe comics is a prelude to G2 and if there's nothing in the future G I Joe stories that condradicts San Francisco getting destroyed, yes I would say they share a continuity. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 01:02 PM)

If you're gonna go "we can assume it did happen even though it's never talked about as long as nothing specifically contradicts it", then surely it's just as easy to assume that the actual G1 TF and Joe crossover happened in the backstory of Classics and RG1.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 01:02 PM)

also I refrained from mentioning Ask Vector Prime but but didn't it say RG1 is a splinter timeline?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:58 PM)

has san francisco ever appeared in G I Joe stories that was chronologically set after G2?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:55 PM)

Intent is not the same as result. And comics end up ignoring things quite often.

@  Telly : (24 August 2016 - 12:54 PM)

maybe they figured a lot of people that read gi joe also read transformers. so they throw a crossover/build up in their to get some excitement for the new comic coming

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:51 PM)

If G2 universe was to be unrelated to G I Joe, why did they do a prelude to it?

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:33 PM)

Classics and RG1 not including Joe issues 138-145 in their backstory does not preclude them from including TF 1-80, or even the Joe and TF miniseries.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 12:30 PM)

Marvel 616 is also a massive continuity snarl from dozens of writers altering, retconning, or ignoring each others' work for decades, so it's not really a great example for an argument on continuity.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:29 PM)

Marvel 616 continuity is a shared universe, devastating events happens in individual series but does mean every event gets mentioned in other comics? @Notvery knightly, yeah that's why I edited that post.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:27 PM)

Your proof for "TF universe = Joe universe" itself is the G2 lead-up, so your reasoning still goes back to G2 matching G2.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 12:25 PM)

So did GI Joe ever reference the time Bludgeon sent his entire force to rampage across the Earth? Or the time Jhiaxus blew San Francisco into a crater?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:25 PM)

whatever.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:22 PM)

Are you not seeing the recursiveness of "G2 is the true G1 sequel because G2 follows up on a G2 storyline"?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:18 PM)

Yeah it has been established that Marvel Transformers and G I Joe comics takes place in the same universe. Unless 90s G I Joe was a reboot I'm pretty sure the G2 crossing over to a G I Joe comic that takes place in the very same universe as the original Transformers makes G2 the canon ending.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:16 PM)

A crossover that the Joe comic apparently ignored.

@  Arazyr : (24 August 2016 - 12:15 PM)

They had a crossover before that, 1986. http://tfwiki.net/wi...he_Transformers

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:15 PM)

Did G.I. Joe acknowledge the planet getting wrecked by the Swarm? Because otherwise it's more like "Marvel Transformers is the same universe as Marvel G.I. Joe only when they feel like it".

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 12:11 PM)

You're using the G.I. Joe G2 prequel itself as the basis for "Marvel Transformers universe is the same universe as the Marvel G I Joe", which makes this a rather loopy argument.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 12:07 PM)

As I said before, Marvel Transformers universe is the same universe as the Marvel G I Joe. Marvel G I Joe crossovers with G2, which makes G2 the canon ending. 

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:59 AM)

How is that relevant to whether or not RG1 (or Classics, even) takes place after issues 1 through 80 of Marvel TF proper?

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:51 AM)

it's a prequel to G2, which makes it the same universe as G2.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:48 AM)

That's clearly not in G2 itself, seeing as it's G.I. Joe issue 138.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:45 AM)

@NotVrtyKnightly Im talking about these issues. http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Unfoldings!

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (24 August 2016 - 11:30 AM)

Now for my part, I consider Marvel G2/Alignment the "true" ending because of Simon Furman's involvement in it, its continuous narrative with Marvel G1, and its sequential publication.

@  SHIELD Agent 47 : (24 August 2016 - 11:28 AM)

The nature of multiple spinoffs/branching timelines means that to call any one spinoff the "true" ending is an arbitrary decision.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:16 AM)

Joe doesn't take place "in G2". Even their Marvel TF-related history isn't confined entirely to a single publication from the 90s.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:08 AM)

Look, oirignal Marvel Transformers takes place in the same universe as G I Joe and G I Joe takes place in the same universe as G2, which makes G2 the true canon ending.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 11:07 AM)

And it's not like anyone would argue that Rebirth wasn't actually the fourth season of the Sunbow cartoon entirely based on the lack of Ramirez and Old Snake.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 11:07 AM)

No you don't get it, I'm not saying RG1 is "less true" because G I Joe doesn't show up.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 10:54 AM)

Also, it's set decades later and earth was wrecked. Surely you don't need an explanation of why the Joes don't show up.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 10:53 AM)

None of that makes RG1 less "true".

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 10:41 AM)

How is it odd? G I joe and Transformers are canonically in the same continuty. Marvel Transformers continuity is a shared universe. G I Joe is canon and they had a crossover with G2, which makes it canon too, simple as that.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 09:30 AM)

an odd thing to say, surely.

@  NotVeryKnightly : (24 August 2016 - 09:30 AM)

If you haven't read them, picking one over the other because of the presence of G.I. Joes is just

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 09:24 AM)

Also even though it's not officially published, I believe Alignment is canon since it was referenced in Ask Vector Prime and Allspark Almanac.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 09:22 AM)

I don't have an opinion on neither G2 or RG1 since I didn't read them.

@  Dracula : (24 August 2016 - 07:54 AM)

G2 was kind of miserable but even that is preferable to RG1.

@  tffan01 : (24 August 2016 - 07:14 AM)

I don't think RG1 is the true ending to the Marvel because G. I Joe was in the same continuity as Transformers and they had a crossover with G2, not RG1 (obviously RG1 didn't exist back then). So G2/Alignment is the true ending.

@  TheMightyMol... : (24 August 2016 - 02:20 AM)

Why do you hate yourself?

@  LBD "Nyt... : (24 August 2016 - 12:45 AM)

I still need to read everything after Vol. 1 of RG1...

@  Telly : (23 August 2016 - 11:47 PM)

i really wouldve liked to see rg1 pick up where the marvel run left off (or just a couple years after), instead of jumping 20 years. i wanna see how shit went down on earth

@  Dracula : (23 August 2016 - 09:54 PM)

After RG1, I'd just as soon have nobody ever touch the marvel continuity again


- - - - -

Well, G1 just got trashed... a review of the DVD.


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114 replies to this topic

#41 Guest_Necromancer Bob_*

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 09:05 AM

QUOTE(Shoot-and-Scoot @ Jun 20 2009, 04:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
This is especially damaging to the Decepticon leader Megatron, who would be a truly great villain if only his strategic and tactical planning skills weren't somewhere between those of Wile E. Coyote and Lt. Col. George Custer.


This is so true.


And a really great line. I'll have to remember that comparison.

#42 Detective Fork

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 09:48 AM

G1 gets trashed a lot but I still enjoy it. The old cartoons can't really be held up and compared to more mature shows that you enjoy as an adult. It's an '80s kid show that featured a lot of fun characters based on toys, imaginative but not deep ideas and frequent weirdness. Enjoying it is often a combination of an appreciation for that type of cartoon and nostalgia. I still think it's better and more watchable than a lot of other cartoons we watched as kids. One thing I like better about Transformers is that it doesn't come across as dumbed down for kids. The characters seem like adults and act like adults without a lot of cutesy stuff or exaggerated stupidity.

Edited by Detective Fork, 20 June 2009 - 09:50 AM.


#43 Detective Fork

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 09:57 AM

QUOTE(MrBlud @ Jun 20 2009, 04:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
His strategy was keeping Prime occupied and on Earth while sending energy through the space bridge for Shockwave to use in crushing the main Autobot resistance. A plan which worked flawlessly as the Decepticons had completely taken over the planet by the time 2005 rolled around when it took the very personifiction of evil to shake their hold on the planet.

Course the only "Megatron" to get props for capturing Cybertron stole someone else's work to do it then lost it to a bunch of hippie animals.

Go figure.


I really enjoy this perspective. Hadn't thought of it that way. :-)

#44 Mark Pellegrini

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 11:04 AM

The G1 cartoon was not a good cartoon. It wasn't even MEANT to be a good cartoon from the very beginning. If those Donald Glut interviews are any indication, there was no story editing in the first couple seasons and first drafts were sent through as final scripts with scarcely anything more than a proof-read for type-os. In-house correspondance featured quotes along the lines of, "Focus on action above plot at all costs!"

The bare minimum of effort was put into the first few seasons of the cartoon and it really, really showed. Basically, if any good stories came out of seasons 1 and 2, it was completely on accident.

The Movie/Season 3 seemed to be the turning point, where there was actual story-editing, something resembling episode-to-episode continuity, a richer back story and some much more challenging stories...but the animation had self-destructed by that point to being nigh-unwatchable.


I own all the episodes of the series several times over and I've watched them all a billion times. Like the G.I. Joe cartoon, the G1 series is a guilty pleasure and I do enjoy it's stronger points (as mentioned, the voice acting was uniformly excellent and the animation, at least by Toei, had moments of grandeur).

But I can never say it was a genuinely good cartoon. Because it wasn't made to be a good cartoon.

#45 Shanghai

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 11:07 AM

QUOTE(Detective Fork @ Jun 20 2009, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(MrBlud @ Jun 20 2009, 04:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
His strategy was keeping Prime occupied and on Earth while sending energy through the space bridge for Shockwave to use in crushing the main Autobot resistance. A plan which worked flawlessly as the Decepticons had completely taken over the planet by the time 2005 rolled around when it took the very personifiction of evil to shake their hold on the planet.

Course the only "Megatron" to get props for capturing Cybertron stole someone else's work to do it then lost it to a bunch of hippie animals.

Go figure.


I really enjoy this perspective. Hadn't thought of it that way. :-)

Most people generally ignore that part though, as it makes all the G1 Megatron jokes lose some impact when he actually succeeded in a rather important way, even if he was getting his ass handed to him on Earth five days a week.

#46 Esser-Z

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 11:10 AM

I have no fondness for G1, myself. I wasn't alive to watch it in the 80s, so I'd already seen much better cartoons by the time I saw any of it.

Edited by Esser-Z, 20 June 2009 - 11:11 AM.


#47 Autobus Prime

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 11:57 AM

Hmph. Another one who just doesn't get it. Here is one of his few good points:

QUOTE(Vicious @ Jun 20 2009, 03:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
"The Transformers" Complete First Season: How Did a Show This Bad Launch a Franchise?
By Ed Liu
06-18-2009, 12:08 AM
the fact that the shows' low points far outnumber their high ones isn't as relevant as the fact that they provide a fertile enough environment for imagination to take root.



Does this man realize how rare and wonderful this attribute has been, at times, in the world of childrens' entertainment? So often, we have gotten preachy, PC nonsense that leaves no room for dreams. In fact, this single remark answers the question his title asks...completely.

(Edit: I greatly fear that the current hip trend for Social Responsibility ™, Only $59.95 at Walmart, Buy it and Feel Virtuous All Week, will bring the poor young'uns a new round of preachy PC tripe. But that's another story...)

And don't miss this part:
QUOTE
Then again, the first Transformers live-action movie was an intermittently entertaining, over-stuffed, under-developed, cacophonous mess whose only sense of imagination seems to be in creative ways of blowing stuff up, so perhaps this first series didn't inspire as much imagination as one might hope.



Again, the point is missed, and furthermore the assessment is wrong. Transformers 2007 was indeed a mess, but imagination was one of its greatest redeeming features, and that goes a looong way.

Those who can, create. Those who can't, criticize. What would this man want? Has he ever watched the dismally PC childrens' "entertainment" that the parents' groups love so well? Has he ever stopped to consider that his ideal show might bore the kids to tears?

And how can somebody who likes Animated not enjoy practically the same show, in the style of another era, unless he is blinded by some sort of reverse-nostalgia? Animated is a LOT like G1, folks.

I believe that this fellow is blinded by a form of self-conscious, adolescent maturity that all of us have at some point, but which needs to be grown out of, in its turn.

Edited by Ottobusu Purimu, 20 June 2009 - 12:07 PM.





#48 Bocc Kob

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 12:00 PM

QUOTE(Bass X0 @ Jun 20 2009, 06:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is there any cartoon from the eighties that was perfectly produced with no animation/sound errors and everything made sense to us in the real world?

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find one.




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#49 Sprocket

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 12:06 PM

I can't argue with it. I never watched G1 as a kid: I'm only in this because of Beast Wars. I did however, watch all those other shows (Voltron, Thundercats, Silverhawks, GI Joe, Go-Bots) and really, most of the shows we watched as kids were terrible (I cringed through Toonami's re-airing of Voltron and Thundercats back in 1997, especially Voltron), and Transformers is no exception.

Edited by Sprocket, 20 June 2009 - 12:11 PM.

Being part of any fandom is fundamentally embarassing.

#50 Jeysie

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 12:28 PM

QUOTE(Ottobusu Purimu @ Jun 20 2009, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Those who can, create. Those who can't, criticize. What would this man want?

A good show?

On the one hand, he does miss the point that compared to other 80s shows, Transformers was innovative in a lot of ways. And many of the overall concepts of Transformers are still pretty unique and creative compared to other scifi shows, even.

On the other hand, there's no denying that the show had shoddy animation and writing, and ages poorly for the most part. It's commendable for what it sparked off, but the show itself is pretty bad, once you take off the nostalgia glasses and actually look at it.

And on top of that, while Season 2 was fun anyway because it ramped up the camp factor and had a lot of character spotlights, and Season 3 was enjoyable because it actually made an attempt at good writing, Season 1 was just formulaic and boring.

QUOTE(Ottobusu Purimu @ Jun 20 2009, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And how can somebody who likes Animated not enjoy practically the same show, in the style of another era, unless he is blinded by some sort of reverse-nostalgia? Animated is a LOT like G1, folks.

Because, as I like to put it, Animated is the good points of G1 without most of the bad points. Essentially, it's G1 done with writing that's actually good.

#51 Fenix Twilight

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 01:10 PM

QUOTE(Firebert @ Jun 20 2009, 06:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Vicious @ Jun 20 2009, 03:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Same reviewer loved Animated:

http://news.toonzone...ll-throttle-fun

Oh, God... There's gonna be some raging on TFW2005.

He even praised it in the G1 review.
QUOTE
In any event, newcomers seeking a way into the world of the Transformers would be better off seeking out Transformers Animated, which, except for missing Peter Cullen as Optimus Prime, is a better TV show in almost every way. If you didn't already pre-order this set months ago, you're probably better off leaving it on the shelf.


And this is technically off topic, but I love this comment in the Animated review.
QUOTE
There is a fine distinction between entertainment suitable for children and entertainment that is childish. The former can appeal to young and old audiences alike, with the younger getting exposed to brave new worlds of imagination and the elder being able to enjoy a brief regression to that younger mindset. The latter may appeal to children, but does little for older viewers except insult the intelligence. Good entertainment for children makes you feel like a kid again; childish entertainment requires you to regress your mental development to that stage. Two other recent 80's revivals--Star Wars and Indiana Jones--have fallen sadly into the "childish" category, but Transformers Animated is clearly in the former. This DVD is frustrating only because it is so good at creating a yearning for more.

So perfectly worded. icon-silverbolt.gif

But yeah. whenever I go back and watch G1 episodes or just read error lists, I'm always dumbfounded by how many mistakes there are, and I always wonder how a movie was made.

#52 Bass X0

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 01:17 PM

because kids just didn't see the mistakes or errors back then and if they did they didn't really bother too much about them.

Just because you can't win doesn't mean you stop working.


#53 Chip

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 02:01 PM

QUOTE(Jeysie @ Jun 20 2009, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And on top of that, while Season 2 was fun anyway because it ramped up the camp factor and had a lot of character spotlights, and Season 3 was enjoyable because it actually made an attempt at good writing, Season 1 was just formulaic and boring.


In season 1, are there any settings on Earth that aren't just the same desert over and over? I know they don't leave the desert much.

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#54 Blueshift

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 03:57 PM

We're talking about a cartoon which had a plot where the Autobots dress up in lab coats in an attempt to fool the Decepticons into thinking they are rocket scientists. It isn't high drama in the slightest.

A lot of good stuff came out of it later on, but the first two series were pretty much disposable goof.

#55 Axaday

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 04:30 PM

Can anyone name a DVD boxset that isn't a hard sell to people who aren't fans of the show?

#56 The REAL Chopperface

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 05:29 PM

QUOTE(Axaday @ Jun 20 2009, 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Can anyone name a DVD boxset that isn't a hard sell to people who aren't fans of the show?


The prostitutes & ice cream variety hour?

#57 Bocc Kob

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 05:32 PM

QUOTE(Axaday @ Jun 20 2009, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Can anyone name a DVD boxset that isn't a hard sell to people who aren't fans of the show?


Firefly, after Serenity came out? icon-fire.gif

#58 Autobus Prime

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 05:38 PM

QUOTE(Blueshift @ Jun 20 2009, 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We're talking about a cartoon which had a plot where the Autobots dress up in lab coats in an attempt to fool the Decepticons into thinking they are rocket scientists. It isn't high drama in the slightest.


BS:

Does it need to be high drama?

I can't be the only person here who enjoys, say, Voltron for a certain set of reasons, and The Hunt for Red October for a different set of reasons. Not everything has to follow the same rules. Good heavens, Shakespeare runs the whole way from high drama to low, low comedy, often in the same play, and every bit of it is fun. Seriously, somebody else here must know what I'm trying to say. I can't put it any plainer.

The thing that annoys me about this review is that the reviewer is going out of his way to demolish this series for failing to be the best thing ever. Isn't this just the flipside of the error committed by the people who claim it is the best thing ever? Aren't both of them equally wrong-headed?

Isn't he making the very same error as the people who condemn Bay's movie for failing to be Au Revoir, Mes Enfants? And we beat those people black-and-blue with their own torn-off misspellings!

The G1 show isn't perfect, but who says it needs to be? Watch MTMTE and you know what the Transformers are about. That's more plot than you can extract from the majority of Energon. It's fun to dwell on the low points, but the show has its good points, as well, and some are quite good.

It's a mixed bag, but an open-minded viewer will find it enjoyable.







#59 Aphel Aura

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 06:16 PM

QUOTE(Ottobusu Purimu @ Jun 20 2009, 03:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The thing that annoys me about this review is that the reviewer is going out of his way to demolish this series for failing to be the best thing ever. Isn't this just the flipside of the error committed by the people who claim it is the best thing ever? Aren't both of them equally wrong-headed?


Having read and re-read his review, I never got the sense that he is "demolishing" the series. Going out of his way to demolish the series would be: "hug, Transformers is just plain *scrubbed*. You fanboys/girls are huging idiots and useless jivepiles for liking this jive. hug y'all."

But he never even comes close to that, does he?

He's just calling a spade a spade... just tellin' it like it is. Pointing out the flaws of something does not equate "demolishing" something, or blaming it for failing to be the best thing ever.

Look. I recently just started re-watching Silverhawks, one of my most favorite cartoons from the 80's. And guess what? Upon watching the first view episodes, I said to myself, "holy jive, they sure re-used a lot of animation. The plots sure are stupid and ludicrous. The voice-acting isn't top notch, etc etc etc etc etc." But guess what? It still warmed my heart to watch the series again, and revisit some familiar characters. Just because I was objective in my assessment this time around, doesn't mean that I went out to demolish the series. I just saw it for what it is: a silly and fun cartoon.

Edited by Aphel Aura, 20 June 2009 - 06:17 PM.

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You know there's a shortage of words in the world today, you should economize.

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#60 Axaday

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 06:19 PM

QUOTE(Aphel Aura @ Jun 20 2009, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Look. I recently just started re-watching Silverhawks, one of my most favorite cartoons from the 80's. And guess what? Upon watching the first view episodes, I said to myself, "holy jive, they sure re-used a lot of animation. The plots sure are stupid and ludicrous. The voice-acting isn't top notch, etc etc etc etc etc." But guess what? It still warmed my heart to watch the series again, and revisit some familiar characters. Just because I was objective in my assessment this time around, doesn't mean that I went out to demolish the series. I just saw it for what it is: a silly and fun cartoon.


I watched the whole volume 1 DVD set, but then I sold it back immediately. I don't understand why a show made by the same people as Thundercats was so bad. Maybe they just didn't have time to do two good shows and they compromised with one good one and one bad?