Bay's Ninja Turtles will likely be to the original TMNT cartoon what Bay's Transformers movie was to the original Transformers cartoon in terms of appearances, characters and concept.

You mean no relation what-so-ever?

Wouldn't it be easier to say that it will be to the original TMNT cartoon what the original TMNT cartoon was to the TMNT comics?

Something almost entirely unrelated to what it was supposed to be based on, that reaches a wider audience.

come on. seriously?

Bay's TF movie had all kinds of relation to the original cartoon.

If you didn't care for the movies, then that's different, but trying to say that there was no relation is absurd.

"Two warring factions of sentient robots, autobots and decepticons end up on Earth and enlist the help of two humans to help them overcome the Decepticon threat."

Am I describing G1 or the movies? I'm not sure.

There have been other TF fiction that was further off course than the movies.

You're describing the most basic premise. Other than that and some shared names, there's almost nothing in common between the two. I'm not saying that this alone is bad, but Bay's record of "artistic license" doesn't set a good precedent. People like him need to be on a short leash. TMNT under Bay needs to have a rigid guide--this is what the Turtles are, this is where they came from, who they are, etc--so it doesn't go off the rails. I don't trust him to have free reign to do anything he wants, and all signs point to that being exactly what he will do.

So basically the Franchise can't deviate from the original at all or else it's not Ninja Turtles. I'm not saying I trust Bay at all to do the right thing with the Turtles after TF's but this is some really close minded Geewunner thinking Benbot. If it wasn't Bay at the helm and this was still happening would it make a difference to you?

I'll admit I'm not liking him helming part of this at all but just like transformers has Turtles can evolve with time. Stories can change and some can be good and some can be mind numbingly dumb. So far other than possibly changing their origins (just like IDW is doing somewhat right now) we don't know what is going to come yet. Just like it was said earlier, as long as the Ninja Turtles aspect stays intact I'll be cool with it. This isn't the first time they lopped of the "Teenage Mutant" off the title, though the last time it happened was a horrendous power ranger wannabe series

Though in both cartoon continuities the turtles origins have been tied to aliens creating the Ooze. Krang made it for shredder in the 80's and likewise the Utroms made it in the 2k series. essentially they are just taking out the middleman.

It's Bay's judgement (and ego) I don't trust. Like I said in my previous post, it's people like HIM who need to be held on a tight leash, creatively. If it were someone else producing who had a better record, then this would be an entirely different story.

If you don't want the franchise to move forward in any way, shape or form, you end up like He-Man. And your merch will only be sold subscription-only to a teensy minority of the toy-buying public.

There's "advancing the franchise" and then there's just taking a massive dump on it.

IDW is a good example of advancing the frachise, of taking the basic premise and changing things up, shaking up the norm...BUT STILL SHOWING RESPECT TO THE FRANCHISE.

I think the common gripe here is that we just do not trust Bay to handle the franchise with the same care. And unfortunately, he's given precedence for the concern.

Shane McCarthy and Mike Costa took a far more massive dump on the Transformers franchise than Bay ever did.

Autobots and Decepticons fight over powerful energy source with Humans caught in the Crossfire. (Movie One)
Autobots and Decepticons fight over production of life sustaining fuel with Humans caught in the Crossfire. A organization is formed specifically to combat Transformers (RAAT anyone?) (Movie Two)
The Ultimate Doom on the big screen (Movie Three)

You can not like the live action movies, that's fine. But the Live Action movies had a lot in common with G1 - heck, we even got multitudes of characters who just mainly stood around in the background with one or two lines. (Jolt is the Skids of the Movieverse).

I especially love how people scream racism at the twins while turning a blind eye to Jazz and Blaster's portrayal in the G1 Cartoon. It's not like racial stereotypes are anything new in the franchise.


As for IDW showing respect to Transformers...Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Tell me another one! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

And yet people still gush over Furman who keeps writing the same basic stories over and over and over agan.....

Using that as your basis for your argument, most of the TF fictions after G1 had 'no relation what-so-ever' to the original story line.

Transformers. Nightmare on Elm Street. Friday the 13th...all box office hits. Whether the internet liked them or not, the public sure showed up for them. Turtles are in good company.

Or do you not want the Turtles to be relevant again?

That's hilarious, some people are telling me Bay should stay away from Turtles because his production company's remakes of Texas Chainsaw and Nightmare were duds.

Also, that his Transformers movies were actually Bionicle movies with the name changed.
Evidently they're against Bay "raping" Transformers and Turtles, but they're fine with assuming Bay "raped" Bionicle's entire backstory.

I forgot about Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

I mean, his Freddy wasn't what *I* wanted out of a modern day Freddy, but I was cruising on the wikipedia and it did offensively well. Friday the 13th dropped off hard the weeks after it opened, but it still broke its share of records. Neither were bombs. And neither are meant to reach all audiences like Transformers or Turtles are.

Actually, I was referring to their TMNT comics. Yeah, they totally raped the TransFormers. They're the reason I don't even collect TransFormer comics anymore. But no, the TMNT comics are actually pretty good. That's what I was referring to. Not the TF comics...hell no not the TF comics.


I never watched Friday the 13th. But I already stated my opinion of what Bay did to Transformers. 

And Nightmare on Elm Street, I did not realise that was a Bay production, but that explains some things. I'll admit that I didn't mind it too terribly much, but neither did it really make me clammor for more. It was okay at best. It had a few decent ideas (mostly the micro dreams while you're still awake). Mostly I thought it was just bland though.

I don't know about box office numbers, but I don't exactly see the studios rallying to make a sequel. I certainly haven't heard anything overwhelmingly good about it either. 

Bottom line though, they may have made a lot of money, or not. I don't have those figures. But Transformers, too relient on juvenile toilet humor and hard to watch embarresing parent moments. Nightmare on ElmStreet, bland. The Rock, okay until you realise just how little research Bay must've done on V.X. gas among other factual errors that make the explainations characters give painful to watch. Armageddon...can not...can not take this one seriously...at all...just...no!

So...sorry. I don't see TMNT as being in good company...at..all. And with a new Nickolodeon cartoon and toyline comming up with a currently ongoing comic series...at what point did you see the turtles not be relevent?

Spoiler: Michael Bay produced the Texas Chainsaw Massacre remake, and that did well enough to warrant sequels.


Besides, if anything shouldn't have had sequels, it was the first TMNT movie. Vanilla Ice, Kevin Nash, abandonned train station and time travel.
I rest my case.

I'm gonna just say it here.

Everyone is giving Bay FAR too much credit for what's going to happen in this movie. Especially when he's not even directing it and people won't shut the hell up about the damn explosions already.

The point where only nerds and kids care about them.

I effing love TMNT and it was a staple of my childhood play pattern once it came along. Then I found the original comics and I never stopped loving them.
Now if this movie is great then I'll love it and gush about it. If it sucks I'll gripe a bit and move the hell on. This franchise has been milked so damn much that, like Transformers, there is so much more to it than the most recent movie and I can go enjoy that stuff like the new cartoon and multiple toy lines coming up.

So I give all the super-bitching a big, giant YAAAAAAWN. Call me when it's entertaining.

I would say fair enough except for the fact that in the case of Transformers at least, the movie almost completely took over every aspect of TF.

Toys, a good 3/4 of what I see at TRU and every toy aisle of every store is Dark of the Moon. Generations and Prime get pushed into maybe two or three pegs. Hell, even the designs of Prime seem heavily modeled after Bays designs.

Comics, I don't really read those any more, but even those seem to have an inordinate amount of Dark of the Moon tie-in's given that the movie is nearly a year old.

I wouldn't be so worried about this movie, except that I don't want what happened to Transformers to happen to the turtles.  I don't want 3/4 of everything I see modeled after some crap movie for years on end, meanwhile anything based on the good aspects of the franchise (Nick series, comic book) gets stuck on two little pegs.

Past, present and future?

Lemme tell ya, I am NOT happy with the current state of mainstream comics. I've cut them out of my life and I am more than happy with the old stories. They will last me a lifetime.
If this movie really changes the state of TMNT then so be it but honestly TFs are an entirely different kind of property at this point. If the new movie is big enough to make that kind of lasting change on the property than HOT DAMN we should all be happy for that kind of exposure. While it would lead to movie style stuff (which NO ONE knows if it will be good or bad right now) it would also lead to more of the classic stuff getting more exposure as well.

So even if you're right I fail to see how it would be a bad thing.

So, how many turtle toys are on shelves now? Or have been in the past three to four years?

Right now, I can talk with normal, everyday people about transformers. Their favorite characters, favorite scenes, favorite jokes... Like Transformers, the majority of everyone thinks turtles died 20 years ago. I would like to be able to have Turtle Talks with random people like I can do transformers now. I would like to meet people who think they're Turtles' number 1 fan even though they've only seen the new movie and remember the old cartoon.

That's what I mean by relevant.

And Caldwin, I know you're done with transformers comics, but you should check out their two new books. If you've ever liked transformers comics before, it might be worth your time.

Who is this directed at? I'm so confused right now because I'm pretty sure we agree right now but I'm not sure if you were talking to me...


But yeah, if this film is successful, no matter how the fans feel, it can only be good for the franchise. If it fails then it fails. There will be another try at something Turtles related again in a few more years.

You are correct! We're on the same page, Cheets. I just finished my post later than I expected. For second, I was distracted by like a million things.

The only difference between them is their allowed budgets. Both make bombastic action-flicks with juvenile humour and false, forced pathos - it's just Boll can only hire abysmal actors and produce crappy special effects.



Even last year I could still find Paleo Patrol and other new TMNT toys in stores. The last show is still fresh in people's memories, and a new show is coming this year, so even without a huge new movie, Turtles would have lived on. It is hardly a case of Thundercats, where apart from a few comics, nothing happened to the franchise since the eighties.

Most people don't wonder into toy aisles, and most people don't watch childrens cartoons.

Most people, however, really loved the turtles when they were kids, and haven't thought much about them since.

Unless it's in 3D; that made the third Transformers movie surprisingly easier to follow visually, since they had to account for how that would work...



...what was wrong with that? I liked it...

--LBD "Nytetrayn"

Any exposure is not good exposure. Why should any fan of TMNT care if the majority of the public is actively aware of what is currently happening with the Turtles franchise?

Becuase it means more merchendise. More money for the company=the more they use a property. Look at how much the TF brand has grown thanks to vault loads of money that the TF movies have made.

I mean, unless you're a fan of stagnant properties, then by all means, fight tooth and nail against this. Heaven forbid in twenty years another generation gets nostalgic for turtles, or the money made by this endeavor gets funneled into the parts of the franchise you enjoy.

Generations, anyone?

Indeed. Classics died a very definitive death. Then the brand got crap loads of money and retailers wanted anything TFs they could get. THey needed full shelves and Hasbro too the opportunity to make any and everything they could.
hugging Straxus, man. I'm not even a fan of the character but I sure as hell can appreciate that we got something so ridiculous. Junkions that can ride each other?! Yeah, brands truly suffer from exposure.

Lol Why am I getting a picture in my head of the Turtles in their trenchcoats just randomly flashing people now

Seriously, I think some fans just don't want their object of affection to be exposed/re-exposed to the masses because they feel that the franchise is somehow theirs and they will be damned if they let any uncouth philistines in to pollute the pure gene pool.

I came from a bunch of old Beast Era boards that refused - flat out refused - to acknowledge anything came after Beast Machines. They were not somehow better for that isolation - indeed, most of those places have become downright hostile to any not of their small clique...which only gets smaller as years pass.

I don't see a shortage of new faces here at the 'Spark.

You guys are making a lot of statements coming from the incorrect premise that TMNT fans just hate change, period. That's not what they (we) are complaining about. It's not what is being said (regarding the new movie's possible origin story) it's who is saying it. Simply put, a lot of us just don't trust Bay to do the Turtles justice to begin with, so when we hear these kind of statements from him, it's easy to get worked up about it.

I'm surprised that so many can't seem to understand the simple concept of not wanting a franchise that you're a fan of being dragged through the crapper by some inept Hollywood jackass whose already made a mockery of other franchises.

I can handle changes to the status quo. From dark and violent Mirage comics, to goofy campy Fred Wolf cartoons, to middle of the road movies. I even didn't mind Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers too terribly much. Hell! I'm not thrilled with some of the designs I've seen from Nickelodian, but even that I absolutely can not wait to see. I'm withholding judgement on that untill I see it in action, and I can't wait.

But with Bay's track record and what he's already said about the Turtles, I have some very real concerns about this. 

And while yes, I do understand that more money=more merchandise...just look at the freaking merchandise! It's mostly Dark of the Moon crap with everything else Transformers (Prime, Generations) being cut down to three pegs at most in the toy isle. 

Dark of the Moon is virtually all I've seen since before the movie was released nearly a year ago! And before that, Revenge of the Fallen took up the same amount of shelf space. Before that it was the first movie. For years upon years the majority of merchandise I've seen are freaking Bayformers.

If it comes down to that or nothing...well dang...I'd rather have nothing.  And if all this generation ever knows about Transformers is Bumblebee peeing on a federal agent, Sam's mother asking if he was masturbating, John Turturo's thonged ass right in the face, and some guy named Deep Wang doing some very disturbing things in the employee bathroom....I'd trully rather Transformers died with Animated.

EDITED TO ADD:


We must've been typing at the same time. Quoted for agreement. And you said it better and more succinctly I think Thanks.

*slams head into desk*

Actually, I think you said it best here:

Its so obvious, I should have realized it sooner! Your concept of the franchise is the end all, be all of said franchise. So if you don't like it, you'd rather have the property die than have material available that others can enjoy, even if you don't.

Really guys. I mean, really?

Most -fans- are just like the Fae of Ballads from KoA: The Reckoning, or the G1 Universe transformers.


They cling so desperatly to what they know... or what they think is right.. their -history- untill something basicly comes along and says, "You know what...F this... CHANGES ARE COMING NOW BITCHES!"

Okay first, the property isn't going to die at all--it's not showing any signs of even being close to slowing down. We have a new show, new comics, new toys... You're acting like if this movie doesn't happen then it's all over. Or should I adopt your mocking tone? It's a good thing that Joel Schumacher made the Batman movies in the 90s because if he hadn't, Batman wouldn't exist today!

And second, read what we wrote. It's not change we object to, it's a known Hollywood jackass dragging the franchise through the mud. And given the choice between a new show, new comics, new toys and a jivey movie and stupid toys based on that jivey movie dominating the shelves, versus *only* a new show, new toys, and new comics, I'll choose the latter.

But again, I don't know that the movie is going to be bad. Maybe it will be good, but given Bay's track record, I am not hopeful. That's the problem.

As a director or as a producer?

Either one isn't really all that great.

But you know what's MUCH worse than DotM figures still in the toy isle?




no TF toys at all.

But you know what would be MUCH better than DotM figures still in the toy istle?




Prime and Generations toys...on more than just 3 pegs! Could you imagine?

I was addressing this point by Caldwin.




Just because you don't like something doesn't mean someone else won't. There was far more going on in all three transformers movies than just those specific examples, but hey. I guess that's all kids will remember?

You ignored that with out movie money, we likely don't get generations. At all.

 
And I don't buy that either. Transformers was not a dead franchise by any means when Bay came along. One Transformer series came after another regularly. IDW picked up the Transformers comics almost immediately after DreamWave went out of business. There were no shortage of toys at all. Transformers was no where near a dead franchise when Bay came along and there's no reason to believe it would have been dead without him. 

Same with the Turtles. Sure there was a bit of a time gap. But there is a comic out for them. A cartoon series on Nick is up and coming along with toys. There may have been a gap between the 4Kids series and what we have now, but TMNT was far from dead.

Bay is not the driving force keeping either Transformers or TMNT alive. I don't know where you got that idea in your head. But they were both alive and well before Bay got a hold of them. There's no reason to believe that they'd be dead without him.

And as for rather having nothing instead of the crap we've had for the past year...excuse me for stating an opinion! But in my opinion, I would much rather have nothing than to have the same crap we've had for years. More new toys from Prime would be the best possible situation. But I honestly feel that having nothing would be better than to have to go one more day looking at those damn movie series toys. 

Looking at the DotM Bumblebee and the very first movie Bumblebee...I see no difference. And how many repaints has that had? Starscream looks the same. Except for an added trailer, Optimus looks the same. There is not enough varience in any of these toys to make me want to keep getting the same mold over and over again. The movie franchise toys are old. They've been done. It's time for something new. 

I would truly rather have nothing in the TF section of the toy isle than to keep seeing the same old tired crap (which by the way IS NOT MOVING OFF THE SHELF AT ALL). How does that bring in money to have the same crap on the shelves, not moving?

DOTM toys gave me Guzzle, your arguments are invalid.