Egad, think of the children, etc.

There's a serious lack of constructive criticism for beginners here at Iacon. It's especially extreme with kitbashing, and I've been on the not-giving as well as the not-receiving end of it. It sucks. It doesn't come across as politeness. It comes across as an implication that the work isn't worth commenting on.

Or, at worst, both at the same time.

(On the other hand, Caboose - you had a number ranking system? Seriously? = D )

I did, but it was kinda rudimentary, and I pulled it off, anyways.

Aye, I actually really did have a bad day yesterday....you just so happened to post at the wrong time for me that's all. This thread kinda cheered me up and I strongly believe gift art should not be criticized (unless asked for). But anyway after sleeping on it I realized I was way out of line. I apologize and take everything I said.

I also deleted my post of yelling.

Sorry to hear that dude, hope today's better for ya.

My concrits do have one fatal weakness, admittedly, they tend to focus on what's wrong, and don't mention what I like, so I'll write, "I don't like such and such but the rest is cool.", it tends to come across as "I don't like such and such.".

Though, to come clean, I just suck at writing.

Hmm, almost makes me wonder if we should have a few labels for artwork for requesting critiques or not, and if the person wants to hear the good as well as the bad. I might start tagging my own art with that in the opening line or two of the topic text, and see if it catches on.

Agreed. Critiques are always helpful but there needs to be a right place for the right time.

Yeah, and I'd like to be able to make clear that I'm open to criticism, even if it's "break all your fingers and go home."

Oh man, same here.

Then again, it's a moot point, no one ever responds to my art topics anyways.

seriously guys the art forum really needs to lighten up.

I thought I was lightening it up?

Noyoudidn'tSpectrawaveisgonnabuzzsawmyfaceoffaaaaaaaaaagh...

And see, this is another case where that tagging system would come in handy. If you don't really care about what you're posting and you're asked to indicate that at the beginning, then it could save others the time of offering useful critique.

There's a serious lack of constructive criticism for beginners here at Iacon because the mass majority of us are beginners who don't know enough to give a precise, fair, critique. That's why your on the not-receiving end. Iacon was never designed to be an art fourm for self improvement, that's what Deviantrt is for. It was designed for fans to share with other fans their common interests. It's designed so that little 10 year old Tommy can share his picture of OP to say Don Fig' or whoever else is in the community. Without the hassle of being ripped on.
That's why I had such an issue with Caboose's response. He (you are a guy right?) just went on and on with how he didn't like what he saw (he even stated he doesn't post what he likes about a piece normally), then he went on with this whole number ranking system which in the end really didn't mean anything. That's not constructive criticism, it's was almost art bashing. He didn't offer any insight on how to fix/improve the work. He didn't show any examples to follow. And how could he? ...He doesn't do kitbashes. In my opinion his critique is moot cause i though the piece was good for what it was.

I'm not saying what your asking for is wrong, and that you shouldn't ask for a critique. Nor should it stop anyone from posting here. It's just the talent pool here at Iacon is mostly fan based without any real professional background (little Tommy for instants). I feel what your looking for, your not going to find it here. That's why it seems nobody comments outside the "That's Awesome" side of things.

I don't give critiques most of the time because nobody asks for them. And that's understandable because nobody wants to hear how bad they are. It's just human nature. But hey if ye want a critique all ya gotta do is ask at the end of your post. Ya don't need a special button added to the fourm, ya don't need separate section added, just ask. And I for one, most of the time will respond with what little background I have.

The internet is weird and it stinks how TM2DB's post meant with good intentions mutated into a discussion on what this art forum has become. This makes me sad.

One: You don't need to be a chef to be able to say something tastes good or bad.
Two: Amateurs aren't necessarily bad at what they do. They just aren't getting paid to do it. Being an amateur (by choice or not) does not preclude improvement.

However, this assumes a desire for 1.) feedback, and 2.) improvement. Sometimes a 'thank you' is sufficient, although it may be foolhardy to expect no other comments when posting to a public forum.

This discussion, as Shum has pointed out, is taking on a life of its own, and merits its own thread at this point since it is distracting from the original topic. If someone doesn't beat me to it by the time I can actually put together my full thoughts on the matter, I'll post later this evening.

Continue discussing here, folks. -- Ursa

Yay, thank you Ursa. Will discuss more in a couple of hours.

As long as you say what makes it good and what makes it not, all critiques should wanted and welcomed.

An artists needs to know what people think when they see his work. He needs to know if the message he conveys is being conveyed correctly, and if not then he needs ways to change that.

I don't review a lot of stuff here because it always seems like a wasted breath, but maybe I'll try again and start critiquing lots of things and see how that goes.

Oddly enough, all this hub-bub makes me not want to ever concrit here again.

I'm kinda scared.

This art community has always been flaky and over emotional. I used to mod this forum back in the day and it's been going on forever.

Granted, it's not just here -- seems to be the case in most art forums I've seen.

That's not a condemnation, just an observation.

Pretty much.

IMO, criticism should be as harsh and as blunt as possible. A lot of times, artists will gloss over or not even pay attention to wishy-washy comments.
Of course, instead of saying it sucks, you should say why it sucks.

But you can still say it sucks.

I actually agree with Kalidor. (I know, weird, right?) Artists, by their very nature, are emotion driven, unreliable, fickle people who have very strong opinions. Talking about someone's work is talking about part of them. (much like someone's taste in music or politics). Constructive or no, no one WANTS to hear "that sucks". Some just realize the need to hear it.

I will say this though. I kitbash as a hobby. I'm a writer by trade. I'm not gona stick my writing on here or in Chronicles and ask "Please critique this." I'm gona say "What do you think?" Those are not the same things. If I want professional help of any kind, I'll ask professionals. If I want to know if you thought what I wrote was fun or not, I'll stick it here.

In essence, this is not the place for professional critiques, so they shouldn't be offered. That said, I'd like a bit more than "Cool". My favorite words I ever hear after I've posted something is "That gives me an idea..."

Unreliable.

Huh.

Interesting.

Okay, I don't mean they don't come through for you, but perhaps not come through in a timely manner? I don't know. Just my experience.

Okay, home.

Allspark has a tremendous range in the skill levels and subject matter that are displayed here. Professionals occasionally show their work here. Long-time hobbyists show their work here. Trolls show their work here. Unskilled doodlers show their work here. This is problematic when it comes to choosing to give criticism or not, and if so, to what degree and on what aspect of the work to do so? Unless a person has intimate knowledge of the personality quirks and posting habits of the contributing artists and illustrators here, failure to give proper feedback is nearly universal.

Some folks have neither the ability nor desire to improve; these posters should not be surprised that, at some point in the course of repeatedly posting to a public forum, particularly one that is not explicitly labeled as "critiques discouraged", that other community members are going to express first their advice for improving, and in time their disappointment or impatience with the quality of the work. For those seeking to improve their work, it is absolutely essential to be receptive to criticism, which involves the ability to separate oneself from their work. Their ability to do so is ALSO as varied as their skill level (and perhaps inversely proportional), but it does exist. It's for that reason that I resent the white-washing that I have seen in posts previous to this, particularly the implication that criticism of the work is a personal attack on the creator. This simply is not true for all artists. However, we once again are not equipped to know beforehand which artists this may be true for, hence my earlier resolution to start posting such information clearly along with each of my submitted items.

So we need 4 tags: "critiques discouraged", "critiques encouraged", "Professional level critiques encouraged", and "don't give a flip"

Then you'll love the fact that your Jetleg kitbash makes me want to try my own, and I good idea on how to start it.

I like the tag idea.

Though, if folks -really- want some hardcore critique, I would recommend they go to ConceptArt.org.

If I'm getting paid? You better believe that jive is on time.

And I think everybody should get critiqued, and critiqued harsh. It should also be based on what the guy was trying to achieve. If someone's like, "i just want to draw a dinosaur as a robot, LOL, what do you think?" Then we have the responsibility to say whether or not that worked. But people shouldn't just expect compliments, that's not exactly how it works. People shouldn't also be hugging rude, either.

I don't know. If everybody was just honest and not overly ignorant in their reviews there would be no problems. People can be nice to each other and still give an opinion. Hell, it happens everywhere else on this place. I think we'll be ok.

Besides the Allspark secret Santa, I barely checked out the Iacon and now that I'm a bit more active in it, I still see the drama is still here. I really don't know what else to say, but I feel I just need to say that alone. Again, the Iacon needs to lighten up.

Well, I dunno man, a lot of the things posted here aren't necessarily for feedback. Take half of the customs you see here, most of those guys are just advertising there stuff to sell. And when you crit one of those things HOLEY JIVE man! Watch your ass! I'm sure you've seen some bad reactions here, and that stuff should really be posted in the bulletin section. And those guys guilty of that crap really only want praise and they dont reply to anything. I can generally tell what things I should be C&Cing and sorry to say I avoid a lot of the custom stuff here.

2D on the other hand, I do look for the magic words of C&C please or feedback appreciated. Personally I always appreciate feedback and I try to respond to everyone, while making changes to my work accordingly. for instance my recent comic page has some new changes(gotta post), and I think one thing directly from this board... so I dunno man. Actually, I have a few things I've 'fixed' that need to be updated. I'll do that now

I only crit customs and kitbashes at the radicons on TFW... even then... I choose to crit people that may be more receptive. At least I dont feel like I'm being used for more hits on their ebay page.

Oh god holy crap yes, this!!

That's why I support a separate customs forum from the art forum - we might not get the kind of traffic that, say, TFW does in terms of art and customs, but I would be down with it, just to keep things separated. (We could even name the customs forum "Ironfist's Workbench"!)

And then, after posting work, getting feedback, they have the gall to not post how they may have mixed their special chrome paint, because its a trade secret ! Then they shouldn't post there carp here, just leave a message in the bulletin area and be on their merry-flippin way. Fine, they are trying to sell something, at least give me something for looking at the sales pitch. This is something I feel really strongly about... now I'm all riled up!

Seriously, we need more exchanging of ideas. A lot of the 2D artists here DO share ideas and its a pleasant environment, and I hope to contribute to that.

Despite this place not being so hardcore as conceptart.org, its still a forum, and not personal ad space, so maybe I think the allsparkers deserve better. I plan on showing you guys all my process steps for my toy designs, just giving a little respect to the community that helped shape what I am today. But then again, I think we(as the human race) are all in this together.

Would telling people to post in a marketplace type section help get rid of those posts?

This!

When I am of mind to offer criticism, I always try to point out something that I like along with what I don't. While it may not be true for everyone, I've found doing this helps some artists keep up morale about their art. I do not think it helps when an artist walks away from a critique feeling like crud about their work. A critique should leave someone feeling encouraged to fix their problems, not leave them wanting to not even try because they've been told it sucks. So many people critique in a harsh tone which seems to discourage people from trying more often than not in my experience.

I support the idea of tags.

I don't know about going to other sites for professional criticism though. The context of Transformers is really different. Knowing "oh, sometimes there's a range of variation in color from one version to another that's acceptable with one change of body, and another acceptable range for more or less extreme changes of body." is just one of many long explanations that you have to give to people unfamiliar with Transformers. ...then again, I don't know that it's really common knowledge in the fandom either. It's not really something you can really nail down.

for me, I just don't function without feedback. and I rarely get it. I'll be lucky to get "that's kinda neat". I just don't do art anymore. ah well, I guess that's my problem, to not be sufficiently motivated. (artists! know what I mean?)

Sometimes I see other people's art and I'm inspired, but I just don't share their vision. It's really hard for me to put myself in their perspective. Usually if they already want something, they already have it the way they want it, so there's nothing really to discuss.

I personally like to engage in discussion on why the project (mine or other people's) should be one way or another, but that takes time and energy, and most people just want to do their thing instead of waste it trying to convince someone else of their way. even just constructive criticism to improve skill requires time and energy that some people just don't want to invest in other people if it won't be accepted.


I disagree that this is the main solution. (but then maybe it's because I haven't lightened up. and I'm not being sarcastic when I say that.)


Also, what is "concrit"? against criticism? is that like criticism of criticism? *google* Ohhhhhh! CONSTRUCTIVE criticism! of course! "crit" is an abbreviation, so why wouldn't "con" be as well! duh!

1. Maybe so. But as a chef you should be able to say what would make it taste better.
2. The more you do something the better your gonna get, by choice or not. If I receive a critique I want it from someone who knows what their talking about through experience. I Doodle as a hobby, when I'm bored. I can draw if i have too. But my "artwork" is not how I earn a living. But that doesn't mean I don't want to better. Why wouldn't an amateur want to improve?

Those that don't come through in a timely manner don't make it far as professional illustrators. While it may not be your own experience, trust me, there are plenty of them that can stick to a deadline. In my case, counting on me to deliver something in a timely manner at this point in time would be unwise, because I work full-time at a soul-sucking call-center, have had to deal with various high-stress events over the past few months, AND I'm in the middle of packing to relocate *lol*. This is why I'm not taking any commissioned work at this time: it would simply be frustrating to all involved.

I've seen a lot of "that's great!" me-tooism here. I've also seen a lot of helpful critique, that ranges from the "honest but tactful" to the "brutally honest". And I've also seen comments that the post-author might call critique, but were needlessly cruel and not very helpful at all, because it set the wrong tone.

There's a saying that goes something like: If an art instructor hasn't reduced you to tears with a scathing critique at least once, you haven't been to art school. The thing is, while there are MANY talented artists here, the Allspark is not an art school. Critique away, and please do so frequently. However, consider whom you are responding to, and comment with tact and decorum, or else the one being critiqued may shut you out completely, and ignore the truly helpful advice hidden in your scathing remarks.

And, with that in mind, tags may indeed be very helpful in this regard.

So it is just an issue of credibility then to determine which opinions carry more weight?

Like, you could say "Boltax doesn't like Milne's art and Milne doesn't like the Boltax rags on it. But at the end of the day, Milne is making a living drawing comics and Boltax is [doing whatever it is he does for a living that isn't being a professional artist] so it doesn't really matter as much what Boltax has to say about it because it might just be sour grapes." and that would be a valid point?


I dunno. I can see that side of things, but then you always go back to guys like Rob Liefeld who had no business making money as a professional comics creator, much less making millions, when thousands of more talented people were being over looked.

Iacon currently is described as a place to display your work. It's pretty open-ended, and might actually be that way out of necessity. However, that leaves it wide open to interpretation and expectations of both posters and repliers alike. Where do the admin and posters want to be one year from now, in terms of community structure and dynamics?

I gotta take your side here. There are art critics who aren't artists... so people just gotta get over who critiques them. For real does everybody else here have an art degree? If the artists themselves don't have a degree, then why the hell does a critic need to have expertise in the feild they are critiqueing? Not many people here are gonna spend 100,000$ and four years just so they can critique on the allspark's art forum.

I still call out bad plays in football, and yet I'm not a football coach!

I'm going a step farther than Kalidor here and saying that abusing those who don't have credibilty is not a good argument to use here.

Aaaactually, Bolty there DOES do comic drawing.

I agree very much with Dissever. Simultaneously, I don't understand the human being at any level of skill who reacts negatively to a "maybe try this instead" in their area of interest.

In any case, just saying "go to Deviantart" and such doesn't really address the issue, because 90% of the kitbashers here are interested in the subject matter, as it were (it's a robot that's a dinosaur!, or, it's totally that guy from the G1 ad bumper but different, because look what I did with his pec fans!) and they're expecting their viewers to be, as well. I think that's a natural thing. Doesn't mean they can't be interested in tips and tricks.

It can be as simple as letting someone know that they're using too few, too thick coats of paint, or introducing someone to epoxy putty when you see them struggling with some kind of workaround. (Stuff is amazing.)

Alternatively, I'll just post my next custom in here or in Grapple's and pretend it's not finished yet. = )

How about we leave things the way they are, let whoever wants to comment say whatever they want, and if someone steps on your toes, tell them to frack off? Honestly, which is more snobby: a person who thinks they're better than everyone else by giving criticism, or a person who thinks they're better than everyone else by refusing to take criticism?

I agree. Leave things as are, this whole discussion just feels like fanning flames of every smoldering side of the argument. Adding tags and stuff isn't going to stop some people coming in and giving crits while at the same time being a jerk about it. Nor will it enourage others to give then 'Cool' for a response to something they see, etc etc etc.

People have good and bad moments, its gonna happen no matter what is done.

Also true, and I concur. Personally, I was fine with the way things were, since the Art section polices itself pretty well.

I don't think credibility is the issue anyway, because good advice usually stands out a lot of the time no matter WHO is giving it. Its more a matter of tone. My point in comparing this forum to an art school is a matter of people paying to be taught in art school, and paying for a certain level of expertise and instruction. As such, there's no need to treat everyone like you're their figure-drawing instructor, and feel compelled to tear them a new hole, because they don't have to go to the trouble of add-dropping. All they need to do is hit "ignore" here.

Certain people seem to think that emphasizing the "brutal" part of "brutal honesty" is the way it needs to be done. I disagree that it should be a universal approach, because your critique also needs to bear in mind the person you are critiquing. Do they need a hard approach, or a softer one? Do I really need to come close to insulting them, or will this person listen to advice given without venom?

As stated, if you swing "hardcore" with certain people, they may be irritated by the tone but find the advice nuggets within the chaff. Others may shut the message out entirely, and in that case the point of the critique is lost.

And then you have some who, no matter how you phrase it, will not openly accept advice or critique. As far as I'm concerned, they're only cutting off their noses to spite their own faces, because NOBODY is above critique, and EVERY artist has more to learn.

well... it's not an "all or nothing" type deal. we could have tags without having them be mandatory. we could make it mandatory, but we don't have to.
but if you don't have a tag, and don't clearly specify in your post what you want, you shouldn't complain about criticism unless it's a personal attack.
how about we just make some guidelines on what tags to use for what? I realize it probably won't change much, but I don't see the harm in trying it out.

It doesn't have to be a button, either (which is kind of overkill.) A pinned thread of "Concrit Guidelines" would suffice. It could help to address some of the altercation issues by giving folks something to point to and at the same time give us a few key phrases, like "Showcase Item" or "Seeking Constructive Criticism" and so on.