Aligned Continuity Transformers Anatomy, what is "technology" and what is "biology"? Rating Options

[Razorsaw]

the last episode of Prime has led me to think about this, and I was wondering what others thought. From "Shadowzone", we know some parts of a Transformer are customizable, removable, or upgradable components, while "Operation: Bumblebee" shows us that T-Cogs and voiceboxes are essentially equivalent to organs and are not so easily replaceable. One can infer that Breakdown's eye is the same case.

Personally, I'd think that a transformers internals, housed in the torso and head at least, are where all the "organs" are. Arms, weapons, and anything that can be adapted by scanning a vehicle mode - while under the control systems of the transformation cog, naturally - are all removable and replaceable like Starscream and Skyquake's arm. Basically, they're compatible technology, but not "essential" to survival.

Naturally, I'd also assume the head is important, given what happened to Tailgate, and the torso itself is important due to Cliffjumper dying when he was impaled there.

Thoughts?

[Phlis]

the last episode of Prime has led me to think about this, and I was wondering what others thought. From "Shadowzone", we know some parts of a Transformer are customizable, removable, or upgradable components, while "Operation: Bumblebee" shows us that T-Cogs and voiceboxes are essentially equivalent to organs and are not so easily replaceable. One can infer that Breakdown's eye is the same case.

Personally, I'd think that a transformers internals, housed in the torso and head at least, are where all the "organs" are. Arms, weapons, and anything that can be adapted by scanning a vehicle mode - while under the control systems of the transformation cog, naturally - are all removable and replaceable like Starscream and Skyquake's arm. Basically, they're compatible technology, but not "essential" to survival.

Naturally, I'd also assume the head is important, given what happened to Tailgate, and the torso itself is important due to Cliffjumper dying when he was impaled there.

Thoughts?

If this is ever delved into more it will never be explained in a way that makes sense past: Technology is stuff they build, Biology is stuff inside them. Like, an arm is replaceable but an eye or voice box isn't. Are video cameras and speakers harder to make then articulated servos?

The whole idea is going to be a convoluted mess.

[Rosicrucian]

The crew in Prime seems to have limited resources. They've adapted what human technology they can, and Cybertronian technology is hard to come by.

But heck, even in G1 transformation cogs were something you couldn't just make another of easily. Metroplex's cog had to be manufactured on Cybertron and sent to Earth, not fabricated onsite.

[ZacWilliam1]

If this is ever delved into more it will never be explained in a way that makes sense past: Technology is stuff they build, Biology is stuff inside them. Like, an arm is replaceable but an eye or voice box isn't. Are video cameras and speakers harder to make then articulated servos?

The whole idea is going to be a convoluted mess.

No. The problem is you're trying to draw a direct corollary between human tech and transformers tech and there doesn't have to be one. An arm can be the equal to replacing a car's tire and a transformers eye or voicebox can still be an organ that is beyond their technology to recreate or reinstall.

We can do a heart transplant but we can't make a new heart. We can build hearing aids but not an artificial eye. We can't do a "stomach transplant". Livining entities are complex things. There's no necessary reason at all that making an eye should equal making an arm. One could be very simple, the other impossible, and that's logically fine.

My BIG BIG question raised by all this is how TFs are "Born" in Prime continuity? Where do they come from and how are they made to begin with. The show hasn't adressed this at all that I recall and I think it's a big deal in terms of understanding them as far as biology goes.


-ZacWilliam, Exodus brushes across it very briefly IIRC but it's hard to tell how much of that is in continuity with Prime...

This post has been edited by ZacWilliam1: Mar 13 2012, 08:37 PM

[Walky]

TFPrime finally addresses something I'd grown weary about over the several decades of Transformers. Transformers are living machines! ...but so are humans.

Just because you're a machine doesn't mean you know how to build yourself. There are aspects of our anatomy that will always be just outside our understanding, even though they're a part of us. Why would it be any different for a Transformer?

Arcee said it best in "Masters & Students": "You're a human, Jack. Can you build me a small intestine?"

[Nyarlathotep]

Transformers work like Strogg.

[Somebody]

TFPrime finally addresses something I'd grown weary about over the several decades of Transformers. Transformers are living machines! ...but so are humans.

Just because you're a machine doesn't mean you know how to build yourself. There are aspects of our anatomy that will always be just outside our understanding, even though they're a part of us. Why would it be any different for a Transformer?

Arcee said it best in "Masters & Students": "You're a human, Jack. Can you build me a small intestine?"

The thing about that scene that gets me is that Arcee didn't always have a motorcycle engine. When she came to Earth, she scanned a motorbike and reconstructed aspects of her technobiology to match human motorbikes, including an engine similar to the one Jack was studying. I don't think it is ridiculous to think that there's enough conscious involvement in the scanning process that she should have a pretty good understanding of how her own alt-mode is put together.

Now, asking her to explain how a spark or neural processor works, I can easily understand her not knowing THAT ("You're a human, Jack. Can you build me a human brain?). Or, taking another tack, if she was reconstructed by external technology - ala the bots on the G1 Ark rebuilt by Teletran-1/Auntie, or the fleshy-coat bots on the Axalon in BW, etc - rather than an internal scanner/reconstructor thing as the movie & Prime bots use, I could buy her not understanding a motorbike intimately.

Think of it as the difference between asking you to draw me a Joyce or Leslie without reference, and asking you to draw me a medical diagram of a retina without reference. The former you intimately know, just as Arcee scanned a bike very closely so she could reconstruct herself and be indistinguishable from it to human eyes. The latter, well, you use a retina all the time, but you don't need to know how it works in normal circumstances, just as Arcee doesn't need to know anything about her spark or brain as long as they keep on tickin'...

This post has been edited by Somebody: Mar 13 2012, 09:19 PM

[Thylacine2000]

Arcee is not a motorcycle. She mimics one. She has built-in propulsion devices and power sources, and so by changing the shape of her body she is able to mimic a motorcycle closely enough to fool stupid organics. Think of a deer hunter wearing camouflage - he isn't really a bush, and he very well might not understand how plant glycolysis works, even though both he and a real bush are made out of carbon and by twitching his fingers he can make fake "leaves" appear to "blow in the wind."

[Razorsaw]

I don't think it's unreasonable at all. The process is automated and controlled entirely by the T-cog. Arcee doesn't have to think to reformat herself at all.

[Phlis]

If this is ever delved into more it will never be explained in a way that makes sense past: Technology is stuff they build, Biology is stuff inside them. Like, an arm is replaceable but an eye or voice box isn't. Are video cameras and speakers harder to make then articulated servos?

The whole idea is going to be a convoluted mess.

No. The problem is you're trying to draw a direct corollary between human tech and transformers tech and there doesn't have to be one. An arm can be the equal to replacing a car's tire and a transformers eye or voicebox can still be an organ that is beyond their technology to recreate or reinstall.

-ZacWilliam

I'm not really trying to draw a line, I really just don't think there will be an explanation past these things are biology and these other things are technology because we say so. And it will lead to problems along the lines of why can this get fixed but this can't?

I mean I get it, universal things, things shared by all transformers (eyes, voice, spark, T-Cog, w/e else they come up with) are probably meant to be biology. I also realize they probably don't have the resources to fix these things while on Earth. But at the same time, lets not short change their technology level. They have built instantaneous transport between two places in gate form, as well as galaxy spanning space ships. We (humans) are almost able to grow Hearts, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5r-T6ANKto it's a thing we will probably be doing in 10 years. It is very expensive but we have the tech to do it, and understanding of our own biology to do so. Transformers far surpass us. A Doctor, back to transformers, should know the intimate workings of every "organ" in the Transformer's body. A field medic like Ratchet would at least have enough knowledge to do repairs/replacement.

[Liege]

IIRC Didn't Brakedown say he chose not to replace his eye as a way to remember his failure or something to that effect in the episode after Operation Brakedown?

[ZacWilliam1]

I'm not really trying to draw a line, I really just don't think there will be an explanation past these things are biology and these other things are technology because we say so. And it will lead to problems along the lines of why can this get fixed but this can't?

Why do you think that? I mean why would they need an explanation for why some parts of a being are easily fixable/replaceable and some are not? That's just the way living beings are. And why would this be in any way a problem in future stories?

I think you're imagining a problem that doesn't and will not exist.


-ZacWilliam, it will adjust to fit the needs of the story as it always has and should. Beast Wars was horribly all over the map on what constituted serious injury or not when ever it suited the plot or comic relief and no one cared. No one is likely to care here either if we someday find out you can replace a head in one episode but not a transappedix in another.

This post has been edited by ZacWilliam1: Mar 13 2012, 10:26 PM

[Axaday]

Arcee is not a motorcycle. She mimics one. She has built-in propulsion devices and power sources, and so by changing the shape of her body she is able to mimic a motorcycle closely enough to fool stupid organics. Think of a deer hunter wearing camouflage - he isn't really a bush, and he very well might not understand how plant glycolysis works, even though both he and a real bush are made out of carbon and by twitching his fingers he can make fake "leaves" appear to "blow in the wind."

Everybody here is probably already aware of this, but this is an exceptionally good post.

[Starfield]

One of the episodes, probably featuring Knock Out, establishes that Transformers are painted. That's pretty weird. I would think the external color of a living machine would be part of the living part. That way superficial scratches and minor damage could heal. Also, the colors would be mis-matched when they scanned a new trans-form until they got a new paint job.

[Kalidor]

Like our clothes right?

[mx-01 archon]

One of the episodes, probably featuring Knock Out, establishes that Transformers are painted. That's pretty weird. I would think the external color of a living machine would be part of the living part. That way superficial scratches and minor damage could heal. Also, the colors would be mis-matched when they scanned a new trans-form until they got a new paint job.

Remember Animated? "Electronic Paint"

[Destron D-69]

its likely something simple. If ratchet can't build it from scraps ... its biologically Cybertronian

[Starfield]

Like our clothes right?

Hey. Here are some naked aligned continuity Transformers. When they scanned vehicles, they changed colors.

One of the episodes, probably featuring Knock Out, establishes that Transformers are painted. That's pretty weird. I would think the external color of a living machine would be part of the living part. That way superficial scratches and minor damage could heal. Also, the colors would be mis-matched when they scanned a new trans-form until they got a new paint job.

Remember Animated? "Electronic Paint"

If I remember correctly, it sounded more like regular old paint in the Prime episode.

[Cybersnark]

We can do a heart transplant but we can't make a new heart.

Yes we can. In fact, Dick Cheney has one (and no pulse).

We can build hearing aids but not an artificial eye.

Getting there.

[Shockwave 75]

TFPrime finally addresses something I'd grown weary about over the several decades of Transformers. Transformers are living machines! ...but so are humans.

Just because you're a machine doesn't mean you know how to build yourself. There are aspects of our anatomy that will always be just outside our understanding, even though they're a part of us. Why would it be any different for a Transformer?

Arcee said it best in "Masters & Students": "You're a human, Jack. Can you build me a small intestine?"

The thing about that scene that gets me is that Arcee didn't always have a motorcycle engine. When she came to Earth, she scanned a motorbike and reconstructed aspects of her technobiology to match human motorbikes, including an engine similar to the one Jack was studying. I don't think it is ridiculous to think that there's enough conscious involvement in the scanning process that she should have a pretty good understanding of how her own alt-mode is put together.

Uh, no.

Arcee is not a motorcycle. She mimics one. She has built-in propulsion devices and power sources, and so by changing the shape of her body she is able to mimic a motorcycle closely enough to fool stupid organics. Think of a deer hunter wearing camouflage - he isn't really a bush, and he very well might not understand how plant glycolysis works, even though both he and a real bush are made out of carbon and by twitching his fingers he can make fake "leaves" appear to "blow in the wind."

Yes! A perfect example is from the G1 episode "Make Tracks". When Raul open's Track's hood and is completely baffled by what he sees inside. It just makes him even more stupid that he just decided to cut a wire without knowing what it does.

This is also one of the reasons I really don't think that TF's would really have a livable interior, city-bots not withstanding. Why would they need one? The just have to look like a car, not actually be a car. Sufficiently tinted "windows" (cuz I doubt they're actually made of glass) and you can hide all your extraneous robot doo-dads and gee-gogs inside and no one would be the wiser. Hell, I doubt they'd even have functioning doors!
"Robots in disguise" to me means just that, that they're in disguise. Dressed up, if you will, as cars and such.

I can wear a Superman costume, but it doesn't actually make me Superman.

This post has been edited by Shockwave 75: Mar 14 2012, 11:57 AM