Art Criticism in Iacon Discussion, Split from TMDB2's custom thread Options

[Kalidor]

So it is just an issue of credibility then to determine which opinions carry more weight?

Like, you could say "Boltax doesn't like Milne's art and Milne doesn't like the Boltax rags on it. But at the end of the day, Milne is making a living drawing comics and Boltax is [doing whatever it is he does for a living that isn't being a professional artist] so it doesn't really matter as much what Boltax has to say about it because it might just be sour grapes." and that would be a valid point?


I dunno. I can see that side of things, but then you always go back to guys like Rob Liefeld who had no business making money as a professional comics creator, much less making millions, when thousands of more talented people were being over looked.

[Dissever]

Iacon currently is described as a place to display your work. It's pretty open-ended, and might actually be that way out of necessity. However, that leaves it wide open to interpretation and expectations of both posters and repliers alike. Where do the admin and posters want to be one year from now, in terms of community structure and dynamics?

[TGping]

So it is just an issue of credibility then to determine which opinions carry more weight?

Like, you could say "Boltax doesn't like Milne's art and Milne doesn't like the Boltax rags on it. But at the end of the day, Milne is making a living drawing comics and Boltax is [doing whatever it is he does for a living that isn't being a professional artist] so it doesn't really matter as much what Boltax has to say about it because it might just be sour grapes." and that would be a valid point?


I dunno. I can see that side of things, but then you always go back to guys like Rob Liefeld who had no business making money as a professional comics creator, much less making millions, when thousands of more talented people were being over looked.

I gotta take your side here. There are art critics who aren't artists... so people just gotta get over who critiques them. For real does everybody else here have an art degree? If the artists themselves don't have a degree, then why the hell does a critic need to have expertise in the feild they are critiqueing? Not many people here are gonna spend 100,000$ and four years just so they can critique on the allspark's art forum.

I still call out bad plays in football, and yet I'm not a football coach!

I'm going a step farther than Kalidor here and saying that abusing those who don't have credibilty is not a good argument to use here.

[Esser-Z]

So it is just an issue of credibility then to determine which opinions carry more weight?

Like, you could say "Boltax doesn't like Milne's art and Milne doesn't like the Boltax rags on it. But at the end of the day, Milne is making a living drawing comics and Boltax is [doing whatever it is he does for a living that isn't being a professional artist] so it doesn't really matter as much what Boltax has to say about it because it might just be sour grapes." and that would be a valid point?

Aaaactually, Bolty there DOES do comic drawing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-waspy.gif)

[Copper Bezel]

I agree very much with Dissever. Simultaneously, I don't understand the human being at any level of skill who reacts negatively to a "maybe try this instead" in their area of interest.

In any case, just saying "go to Deviantart" and such doesn't really address the issue, because 90% of the kitbashers here are interested in the subject matter, as it were (it's a robot that's a dinosaur!, or, it's totally that guy from the G1 ad bumper but different, because look what I did with his pec fans!) and they're expecting their viewers to be, as well. I think that's a natural thing. Doesn't mean they can't be interested in tips and tricks.

It can be as simple as letting someone know that they're using too few, too thick coats of paint, or introducing someone to epoxy putty when you see them struggling with some kind of workaround. (Stuff is amazing.)

Alternatively, I'll just post my next custom in here or in Grapple's and pretend it's not finished yet. = )

This post has been edited by Kalimol: Jul 6 2010, 01:30 AM

[TM2 Dinobot]

How about we leave things the way they are, let whoever wants to comment say whatever they want, and if someone steps on your toes, tell them to frack off? Honestly, which is more snobby: a person who thinks they're better than everyone else by giving criticism, or a person who thinks they're better than everyone else by refusing to take criticism?

[Admiral Lilwall]

How about we leave things the way they are, let whoever wants to comment say whatever they want, and if someone steps on your toes, tell them to frack off? Honestly, which is more snobby: a person who thinks they're better than everyone else by giving criticism, or a person who thinks they're better than everyone else by refusing to take criticism?

I agree. Leave things as are, this whole discussion just feels like fanning flames of every smoldering side of the argument. Adding tags and stuff isn't going to stop some people coming in and giving crits while at the same time being a jerk about it. Nor will it enourage others to give then 'Cool' for a response to something they see, etc etc etc.

People have good and bad moments, its gonna happen no matter what is done.

[CORVUS]

Also true, and I concur. Personally, I was fine with the way things were, since the Art section polices itself pretty well.

I don't think credibility is the issue anyway, because good advice usually stands out a lot of the time no matter WHO is giving it. Its more a matter of tone. My point in comparing this forum to an art school is a matter of people paying to be taught in art school, and paying for a certain level of expertise and instruction. As such, there's no need to treat everyone like you're their figure-drawing instructor, and feel compelled to tear them a new hole, because they don't have to go to the trouble of add-dropping. All they need to do is hit "ignore" here.

Certain people seem to think that emphasizing the "brutal" part of "brutal honesty" is the way it needs to be done. I disagree that it should be a universal approach, because your critique also needs to bear in mind the person you are critiquing. Do they need a hard approach, or a softer one? Do I really need to come close to insulting them, or will this person listen to advice given without venom?

As stated, if you swing "hardcore" with certain people, they may be irritated by the tone but find the advice nuggets within the chaff. Others may shut the message out entirely, and in that case the point of the critique is lost.

And then you have some who, no matter how you phrase it, will not openly accept advice or critique. As far as I'm concerned, they're only cutting off their noses to spite their own faces, because NOBODY is above critique, and EVERY artist has more to learn.

This post has been edited by ^o^CORVUS^o^: Jul 6 2010, 07:04 PM

[Chaotic Descent]

well... it's not an "all or nothing" type deal. we could have tags without having them be mandatory. we could make it mandatory, but we don't have to.
but if you don't have a tag, and don't clearly specify in your post what you want, you shouldn't complain about criticism unless it's a personal attack.
how about we just make some guidelines on what tags to use for what? I realize it probably won't change much, but I don't see the harm in trying it out.

[Copper Bezel]

It doesn't have to be a button, either (which is kind of overkill.) A pinned thread of "Concrit Guidelines" would suffice. It could help to address some of the altercation issues by giving folks something to point to and at the same time give us a few key phrases, like "Showcase Item" or "Seeking Constructive Criticism" and so on.

This post has been edited by Kalimol: Jul 8 2010, 04:38 AM

[SmokedToast]

Well, I tried the tags idea suggested in this thread for my last post to see if it would really change anything.
So far it has changed nothing so... I'm not so sure the thread tag system would actually work.

[Copper Bezel]

I didn't see you down there, I can't really draw, and it's non-TF. With that said, I'll take up your simple solution and just use the thread subtitle. That seems like a very straightforward way of going about it.

[Dissever]

Well, I tried the tags idea suggested in this thread for my last post to see if it would really change anything.
So far it has changed nothing so... I'm not so sure the thread tag system would actually work.

I imagine the transition is going to be fairly slow. I think 2-3 months is a fairly reasonable expectation.

[CORVUS]

Indeed. Expecting it to work overnight is wholly unrealistic.

[Diacron]

I want a tag that says 'Glorious Praise Only'. If the 'Glorious Praise Only' guideline is not adhered to, I want the ability to either modify or remove the comment completely!

It's a win/win!

[Copper Bezel]

So what you're saying is that you want to do commissions?

[TGping]

So what you're saying is that you want to do commissions?

Haha, hey man, some of us do commissions without getting bent out of shape (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-fire.gif)

[Copper Bezel]

Sorry, man, I had to. = )

[TGping]

Yeah... I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-fire.gif)

[Diacron]

So what you're saying is that you want to do commissions?

Are you saying commissions don't get critiqued?