So why does Ultra Magnus wear the armor? Options

[Liam Shalloo]

Unless officially stated otherwise, Magnus is not wearing armour.

Thus as far as i'm aware DW's (dissolved) continuity is the only one where you can actually state this Magnus wearing armour as a fact.

Using the features of the toy as your evidence DOES NOT cut it. It is akin to saying Bludgeon's character can't be a Samuir because his G1 toy didnt come with a sword, or that Optimus Prime can't be a giant robot because his toy is only 4 inches tall.

[▲ndrusi]

As much as I want to argue with those dubious comparisons, there is an established history of TF characters' abilities not being particularly toy-accurate. There's no evidence of cartoon Grapple and Inferno having missile launcher forearms, for instance, at least as far as I can remember. A better one is probably Apeface's beast mode head.

This post has been edited by Andrusi: Jan 11 2010, 11:31 AM

[Database]

Unless officially stated otherwise, Magnus is not wearing armour.

Thus as far as i'm aware DW's (dissolved) continuity is the only one where you can actually state this Magnus wearing armour as a fact.

Using the features of the toy as your evidence DOES NOT cut it. It is akin to saying Bludgeon's character can't be a Samuir because his G1 toy didnt come with a sword, or that Optimus Prime can't be a giant robot because his toy is only 4 inches tall.

I see it more as the reverse; like saying a Pretender isnt a Transformer; becuase one never left its shell.

[Boltax]

Unless officially stated otherwise, Magnus is not wearing armour.

I'd argue it the other way around, honestly. The toys are the template -- they're where things come from. Unless specifically stated otherwise Magnus IS a little Prime wearing armour.

It didn't get featured in the cartoon, but NOTHING in the cartoon contradicted it. He never specifically stated he didn't have a small robot mode. He just never used it.

Thunderwing never used his small robot mode in the US comics -- but we all still know he was a Pretender.

As for evidence of small Magnus? Obviously we have no direct evidence -- but there is some stuff we can use as inference.

Let's see -- in the US comics in issue 1 we see a whole CRAPTONNE of Autobots and *DECEPTICONS* who are just redeco'd Optimus Primes. We *KNOW* therefore that there are other characters in the US Marvel comics that are just Prime redecos. Some of them are even EVIL!
(IMG:http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/97/Generic_decepticons_marvel_1.jpg)
Look, there's even one leading the DEcepticon charge in this issue!

There's also the matter of Fusion. Fusion is from the UK comics. He's an Autobot with an IDENTICAL ALT MODE to Optimus Prime. However, he's clearly LESS POWERFUL than Optimus Prime -- or at least not as able to survive. Because he freaking dies. Again, evidence that you could have a duplicate Prime in the comics.

Then there's the origin of Ultra Magnus in the comics. Magnus was built and given life SPECIFICALLY to be a part of Operation: Volcano. That means he was born *4 million years* after Prime. So (and here we're making our argument based on the assumption that our central thesis IS correct) if he IS just another Prime-style robot giving him super armour would be a brilliant way to beef him up and make him the super robot they needed.

There's also the fact that, at least in Target:2006 Ultra Magnus is FREAKING HUGE:
(IMG:http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/55/Target_2006_Magnus_Big_head.jpg)
Geoff Senior was clearly drawing him based on the cartoon character models -- but he was also clearly drawing him with TOY SCALE in mind. So not only is he a car carrier he's FRIKKIN' ENORMOUS.

As Walky says -- as much as you can take the way things are animated as evidence, Magnus IS usually shown with his truck cab going where it goes for the toy in robot mode in the cartoon. For me, that's more than enough evidence.

--Boltax.
(Again -- the toys say he's little Prime in armour. Why assume he's not based on no evidence?)

This post has been edited by Boltax: Jan 11 2010, 12:12 PM

[Smitty]

Let's see -- in the US comics in issue 1 we see a whole CRAPTONNE of Autobots and *DECEPTICONS* who are just redeco'd Optimus Primes. We *KNOW* therefore that there are other characters in the US Marvel comics that are just Prime redecos. Some of them are even EVIL!
(IMG:http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/97/Generic_decepticons_marvel_1.jpg)
Look, there's even one leading the DEcepticon charge in this issue!

That is clearly Nemesis Prime

[Database]

Let's see -- in the US comics in issue 1 we see a whole CRAPTONNE of Autobots and *DECEPTICONS* who are just redeco'd Optimus Primes. We *KNOW* therefore that there are other characters in the US Marvel comics that are just Prime redecos. Some of them are even EVIL!
(IMG:http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/97/Generic_decepticons_marvel_1.jpg)
Look, there's even one leading the DEcepticon charge in this issue!

That is clearly Nemesis Prime

No, he's a low quality Knock-off. I'm pretty sure we've seen a Prime KO in those exact colors...

[Rust]

Magnus wears the armor because he needs something to take off when he goes wild. He's a Cybertronian Streaker.

(IMG:http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/GuardConvoy/Pic%20Fic/0004.jpg)

[Lukeblast]

Unless officially stated otherwise, Magnus is not wearing armour.

I'd argue it the other way around, honestly. The toys are the template -- they're where things come from. Unless specifically stated otherwise Magnus IS a little Prime wearing armour.

It didn't get featured in the cartoon, but NOTHING in the cartoon contradicted it. He never specifically stated he didn't have a small robot mode. He just never used it.

And once again, the difference between "there's a little robot that you never know about" and "no little robot" is...?

Much like Perceptor's tank mode, if he didn't use it, ever, especially in cases where it may have been to his advantage (and in Perceptor's case, in lieu of rolling down the street as a gigantic mobile microscope), no one acknowledges it in any way whatsoever, and the proof for it's existence comes directly from the absence of proof, then I think it's safe to assume that the thing did not exist... at least in that continuity.

This post has been edited by Lukeblast: Jan 11 2010, 12:48 PM

[FortMax]

We /have/ seen Magnus without his armor.

http://botchthecrab.com/galleryImage.asp?g...=2&image=37

[Smitty]

We /have/ seen Magnus without his armor.

http://botchthecrab.com/galleryImage.asp?g...=2&image=37

Also here...

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Classics_Ultr...mlock_comic.jpg

[Database]

We /have/ seen Magnus without his armor.

http://botchthecrab.com/galleryImage.asp?g...=2&image=37

Also here...

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Classics_Ultr...mlock_comic.jpg

Snarl seem to be like "Fine, don't include me in your discussion."

[Walky]

We /have/ seen Magnus without his armor.

http://botchthecrab.com/galleryImage.asp?g...=2&image=37

Also here...

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Classics_Ultr...mlock_comic.jpg

Snarl seem to be like "Fine, don't include me in your discussion."

Naw, he just doesn't want to be seen with a group that can't hold binoculars properly.

[Jack Cade]

I'd argue it the other way around, honestly. The toys are the template -- they're where things come from. Unless specifically stated otherwise Magnus IS a little Prime wearing armour.

So we're back to: Blurr carries the front of his vehicle mode as a shield (just off camera) and the Dinobots all have pods for tiny men to fit into and drive them.

It didn't get featured in the cartoon, but NOTHING in the cartoon contradicted it. He never specifically stated he didn't have a small robot mode. He just never used it.

And here, we're back to: why can't every Autobot have a smaller white robot inside them? Nothing in the cartoon specifically contradicts that either. Why stop at action figure features? There are surely infinite far-fetched possibilities which the cartoon writers foolishly failed to definitively state don't exist.

This is becoming a bit like an argument about the existence of God.

[Moroboshi Ataru]

Well, if anything, the cartoon wasn't doing its job properly by refraining from milking every gimmick that the toys had, for story potential, i.e. by not showing Magnus as a white Prime. Advertising was basically its entire reason for existing...

[Sailor Unicron]

So, to everyone using the cartoon as a validation, FIRRIB or FIBRIR? Because cartoon canon says FIRRIB.

[Walky]

So, to everyone using the cartoon as a validation, FIRRIB or FIBRIR? Because cartoon canon says FIRRIB.

Well, American cartoon canon. Japan fixed that little error by swapping the names back.

[▲ndrusi]

I always wondered why they didn't swap the toys instead. It isn't a clearly better option or anything, but it just seems like a more natural solution to me.

Then again, if you were changing people's names to Convoy and Gren and such already, I suppose a couple more couldn't hurt.

[Lukeblast]

We /have/ seen Magnus without his armor.

http://botchthecrab.com/galleryImage.asp?g...=2&image=37

Actually, we've seen a white Prime... fighting alongside Ultra Magnus, which only appears possible in that image.

Unlike Metroplex and Trypticon, who have motion lines carrying from one form to the next to show that it's clearly meant to be the same character, none of the others do. So in the continuity portrayed on that back of that box where all the Autobots fly and all the combiners fight alongside their components, there is a white Prime who fights next to Magnus.

This is not to say that the white Prime isn't Magnus. I'm using that to keep the differentiation between the forms portrayed in the image. I'm saying that the image is pretty obviously it's own enclosed continuity and has no bearing on others, where Magnus may or may not be a white Prime in armor.

Also here...

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Classics_Ultr...mlock_comic.jpg

Right. Continuities definitely exist where Magnus is a white Prime. The basic argument that's been raised is that there's no reason to assume that it's the case in ALL continuities, especially in cases where "it never said he wasn't" is used as basic proof.

This post has been edited by Lukeblast: Jan 11 2010, 05:05 PM

[Esser-Z]

We /have/ seen Magnus without his armor.

http://botchthecrab.com/galleryImage.asp?g...=2&image=37

Actually, we've seen a white Prime... fighting alongside Ultra Magnus, which only appears possible in that image.

Along with the combiners and their components!

[Jack Cade]

Right. Continuities definitely exist where Magnus is a white Prime. The basic argument that's been raised is that there's no reason to assume that it's the case in ALL continuities, especially in cases where "it never said he wasn't" is used as basic proof.

Yeah. Just to blow one straw man away, I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure no one here actually believes that Ultra Magnus has never, in any continuity or arrangement, been done as a white Optimus Prime. It's pretty clear that he has. Just not in the original cartoon, or the Marvel comics, or Animated, or the Movieverse (yet), or IDW comics (yet). Plus any others I'm lazily forgetting.