An odd thought about Transformer mechanical alt mode mimicry, Just how far would they would be willing to emulate the disguise... Options

[Technocrat]

I would guess that a Transformer like G1 Starscream would have either some slight repulsar lifter function to aid in take off and landing and transformation. or has a series of micro-thrusters (looking at that part on his shin as a possible thruster) with the vanes on the back of MP Starscream also perhaps for microdirection changes in robot mode (bit like Movie Ironman has).

Anyway MP starscream also seems to have 3D vectored thrust nozels and F-15 can stand on their tails and fly straight up 25,000 feet anyway so I can't see any reason Starscream couldn't make a very fierce climb too.

Also Classics Starscream's jet nipples seem like they'd work as directional hoverfans in jet mode too.

[Blacknife]

I have a sort of half-explanation for the disparity between being able to change outter appearance and not healing.

I think for lack of a better analogy, the reconfiguration systems are more akin to a tailor than a doctor. They are strictly for the reconfiguration of the exoskeletal structure. It seems at least to me there may be nanomechanisms which can help eventually recover endoskeletal damage. For the movie, I'd assume that it was something that was beyond what the nanites could do for Bumblebee. I'm thinking Ratchet's ray was more of a laser point device to "paint a target" and shoot more nanites to fix Bumblebee's issue. Of course, that's my fan fic theory (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-waspy.gif)

And, I'm thinking that it pretty much applies in the multiverse too... At least, it strongly points that way IMHO

[Mad Hornet]

Of course, that's my fan fic theory (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-waspy.gif)

The thing is, the movie-verse TF's really don't look like they have any internal structure. They look like they're simply the alt-modes broken up into little pieces and re-assembled into bipedal forms. The only way they could pull off that appearance is if they were 100% nanotech and if they are, you have to wonder how the military can kill them when they essentially don't have any "vital organs".

[Blacknife]

Of course, that's my fan fic theory (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-waspy.gif)

The thing is, the movie-verse TF's really don't look like they have any internal structure. They look like they're simply the alt-modes broken up into little pieces and re-assembled into bipedal forms. The only way they could pull off that appearance is if they were 100% nanotech and if they are, you have to wonder how the military can kill them when they essentially don't have any "vital organs".

Well, I'm thinking of a definitive hybrid system.

There are fixed plates & structures that a TF has to work into the form. I guess to my mind, it's pretty much the main systems. I always have put it into three main fixed systems. I've always had this setup.
Spark {energy based hard drive}
Personality Component {the CPU...the actual mechanical structure responsible for processing information from the laser core I always thought BOT as showing us what actually processed the information from the true Personality component...the spark {as shown by the "energon cube" Starscream stuck in the earth vehicles}...}
Basic rod and joint structures to accomodate a wide variety of endoskeletal structures.
Retractive plating system {to expand and collapse into itself and create the exoskeletal structures}
Solid holo generater to mimick minutia of chosen alt mode {mostly movie, but I image it could fit other continuties too...}

And, yes, at one point of time I was on another board hashing this TF biology out with a couple of other people {sad that the list we setup disappeared}. So, heh...

Now, naturally, I'm thinking the conversion process would relocate the spark and the PC to the most protected areas...that way there's no perfect "kill shot" in alternate modes {which would certainly explain why a lot of what would seen to kill a TF doesn't...or the attack pretty much decimates 90% of their alt mode and there's no question left...}

[Kalimol]

There's no evidence of "hard light" holograms even in the movie continuity.

I'd like to think that any given Transformer has a functional chassis wrapped in a mutable shell. It makes a lot of sense, and the movie Transformers have that look of a functionally-designed robot wrapped in bits of rolled-up disguise. It would also put a kind of limit to the alt-mode scanning - maybe Bumblebee could become any appropriately-sized car, truck, or construction vehicle on Earth, but not a jet fighter. It also means that just sprouting a VTOL jet is a bit out.

Unfortunately, the handling in the fiction seems more along the lines of the Hugging Magic Principle.

I mean ... Bee's shiny new engine implies to me that his alt mode is actually driven by internal combustion. The implication is that the car mode is 100% car, and that you could take it apart and find nothing but car inside.

This post has been edited by Kalimol: Dec 25 2009, 01:06 AM

[Blacknife]

There's no evidence of "hard light" holograms even in the movie continuity.

Actually, there's a little green light "resolution glitch" right before Mikaela checks the "engine". At least, that's what I always interpreted it as.

I don't know, other than some sort of Malleable fluid like metal that can alter density to simulate the sensations of a particular material at hand.

I'd like to think that any given Transformer has a functional chassis wrapped in a mutable shell. It makes a lot of sense, and the movie Transformers have that look of a functionally-designed robot wrapped in bits of rolled-up disguise. It would also put a kind of limit to the alt-mode scanning - maybe Bumblebee could become any appropriately-sized car, truck, or construction vehicle on Earth, but not a jet fighter. It also means that just sprouting a VTOL jet is a bit out.

Unfortunately, the handling in the fiction seems more along the lines of the Hugging Magic Principle.

I mean ... Bee's shiny new engine implies to me that his alt mode is actually driven by internal combustion. The implication is that the car mode is 100% car, and that you could take it apart and find nothing but car inside.

Yeah, hrm. Even solid light holos would present a problem. Especially if someone attempted to carry away a part. There would have to be a set range before it went poof.

Again, it seems that now matter how TFs mimic their alt forms, they seem to have an automatic understanding for the thresholds of the original design {otherwise Mikaela would have found nothing wrong at all...and well that threatens the disguise at hand}

Well, there's another way that it could work. Some sort of malleable fluid like metal {akin to T1000}. It can creates various shapes and retain a rigid structure {insert Dinobot joke here} and can be carried away, mistaken for the said part unless someone put it under some kind of microscopic scrutiny. A Transformer would have to have some kind of structure to hold enough of said fluid to convert back and forth into both modes though.

I'm thinking the "planet entry" modes represent the TFs at their most basic and yea does go with the body and mutable shell.

And I agree with the relative size mass aspect. Well, I guess my example might imply the most extreme example: say Starscream going from a f-15 Eagle to a Harrier but I didn't intend it that way. Pretty much he shifts some plating to have the exhaust give an immediate boost up {it seems that a boost down would require more reconfiguration than time allowed}.

And, yeah, what makes this so difficult that all the examples across multiple continuities are all lovely plot convenience. Things have popped up from various alt modes when necessary {Jazz's Wolf Speaker attack...} and seemingly out of nowhere.


I do think however what does prevent TFs from constantly changing everything at the drop of the hat is the energy consumption {and why there's no pandora's box of completely off the wall instant reconfigurations, creation of Combaticons aside}. It's what prevents them from being complete full fledged shape shifters. Hence, why they do chose one host "template" to always emulate. It would definitely be easier on their systems.

This post has been edited by Blacknife: Dec 25 2009, 01:38 AM

[Kalimol]

A Transformer would have to have some kind of structure to hold enough of said fluid to convert back and forth into both modes though.

Not really - it could take on whatever form required, right? You wouldn't need to store it. All you'd need is a power source and a brain to support it, because it would take whatever form it was told to take. But Transformers don't morph. = )

Yeah, no, that makes sense, about the holograms. I'll have to go back and look for that "glitch" with Bumblebee's engine - if it's really there, then yeah, it's definitely holography, which means there are physical limits to what the TF body can emulate, which makes the whole thing make a good bit more sense. In that case, we're not actually seeing an internal combustion engine, but a projection of one ... yeah, I could totally buy that. It certainly makes more sense than his actually having an internal combustion engine.

I don't know if it would necessarily be hard light, or really just a projection - the latter seems far less complex and somewhat more practical, would certainly consume less power, and would have fewer convenient advantages that we have conveniently never seen. I mean, if they could just randomly project force fields, I think it would come in handy enough that we'd have seen evidence of it.

On the other hand, I do see an appeal in the visible car parts in the robot forms, including Bumblebee's engine parts in his back. It makes no sense from a sci-fi perspective, but it's appealing to think that they're mostly vehicle and that their robot forms make use of the parts present in the vehicle for their own functions. That makes them much more like transforming cars and much less like sentient alien space ships projecting illusory disguises, and I think the former has far more superficial appeal.

I would still imagine that whatever the process, there's a more fundamental reconfiguration involved in taking on a new alt mode than in just transforming into one they already have. Prime's "scanning" scene would seem to support that (because it looked different from ordinary transformation), while Frenzy's would tend to discount it.

I like the "energy consumption" thing, and we've actually only ever seen any one Transformer change alt modes once in the continuity so far. It makes logical sense, although we really don't have any evidence one way or the other in the films.

I still like the idea that a Transformer has limitations in terms of what alternate forms he or she can take - not just in mass, but in structure - because of the functions of the endoskeleton. Going from an F-22 to a Harrier makes some sense, and the mass difference could be faked. I would be less comfortable with Bumblebee sprouting wings and turning into an (unusually heavy) Piper Cub, but there's no evidence in the films thus far that he could or could not. Obviously the Ghosts of Yesterday canon would support the idea that he very easily could.

Meh. At least Animated established that straight off.

This post has been edited by Kalimol: Dec 25 2009, 01:56 AM

[Blacknife]

Heh, yeah, you'll miss the glitch if you blink. There's a little "resolution glitch" sound like Blackout's Holo-driver before it happens. It's like Bumblebee pretty much popped it up as she raised the hood.

Hrm, I could see a TF varying the strength of projections. After all, they would only need to "solidify" the pertinent part at hand. This would keep energy consumption relatively lower. {I could imagine funny scenarios where someone working on a TF would have their hand slip and go right through an non solid Engine block...only to hits Bumble's compacted head...then the person shakes head and leaves complaining of working too many hours}

[Dake]

TFs are sounding more like the T1000 than ever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-arcee.gif)

How could Frenzy's head cram itself into a cellphone-sized lump and not weigh about 20 lbs in Mikala's (sp?) purse?

I doubt Frenzy's whole body weighs 20lbs, let alone just his head.

Ok, even 5 lbs would be noticeably heavy for a little Nokia or whatever - she wouldn't have just snatched it up without noticing.

[Shockwave 75]

Vehicles also seem to exceed their models by at least a bit - Bumblebee had a shiny new engine, and Starscream could fly in the upper atmosphere even before shedding his Earth form.

Which goes back to my argument that thou they may look like earth vehicles, they aren't and therefore are not held to their limitations.

[Kalimol]

Well, even moreso after that point was refuted by what Blackknife mentioned about the engine not being real. = )

TFs are sounding more like the T1000 than ever.

No, I really don't think so. Much more TX.