RiD/Car Robots Combatrons..., Does the upside-down symbol make sense? Options

[Lukeblast]

Here’s one that’s been bugging me for a while…

In the Car Robots toyline, the Combatrons (Decepticons) used an upside-down G2 Autobot symbol as their insignia. This was because the symbol was molded on the discs included with Laser Optimus Prime (who was being used for Black Convoy), and Takara didn’t want to spend the money on remolding them.

Okay, most of us are well aware of that, but I wanted to set the scene. The thing is this: G2 barely happened in Japan (mostly being the toys themselves and comics from four years prior), so why didn’t Takara just use the regular G2 Autobot symbol for the Combatrons?

The G2 Autobot symbol has virtually no meaning in Japan (to be fair, that’s more or less the case worldwide). Inverting it to represent evil is then similarly meaningless. Older Japanese fans may have been more aware of the symbol, but as the wiki notes, the toyline and cartoon were geared for a younger audience. It’s unlikely they would be paying attention to releases almost half a decade earlier.

The Cybertrons (Autobots) of the series used the G1 symbol (it’s even molded into the Car Bros). The Combatrons are corrupted Cybertrons, so while an inverted symbol makes some sense, it’s not even the symbol used in the line. Since they had to use the G2 symbol in some form, the inversion would have made more sense if the G2 logo was the standard CR Cybertron symbol… or even better (IMO), if the Cybertrons used the G1 symbol and the Combatrons used the regular, unaltered G2 symbol as their insignia.

It just seems rather arbitrary to me that the “evil” symbol would be an inverted symbol that had little to no significance several years prior and was not otherwise used in the current line. A friend that I brought it up to thinks that Takara might have been planning ahead and thinking of the international market, but the same could be said: it was a few years back, largely forgotten, and would have made as much/more sense if done another way.

I’ve been told I’m just thinking too hard about this, and to be clear, I’m not trying to pull a “this is how they SHOULD have done it” or any argumentative stuff like that. It’s likely that I have some facts wrong and/or more went into the decision-making process than I’m aware of, so I’m putting what I know and think (and think I know) out there in the hope that someone can fill things in for me.

[Shattered]

I think the G2 Autobot symbol looks too sufficiently like its G1 counterpart to have really seemed like a good idea for use by the Combatrons without inverting it.

[Powered Convoy]

I'm sure it was a matter of they were given the opportunity to have them use a different faction logo and went with it. But wanted to make it different then the pre-established use of said symbol so they inverted it as a way of distinguishing it.

Randy

[Dake]

I actually never knew any of that history but I just got my Black Convoy from BBTS (it was on sale and I never got RiD Scourge) and was looking at the symbol thinking, "Isn't that the G2 Autobot symbol, but it's upside down?"

Now I know!

[Lukeblast]

I think the G2 Autobot symbol looks too sufficiently like its G1 counterpart to have really seemed like a good idea for use by the Combatrons without inverting it.

Seriously? I don't think it really bears any resemblance at all, being essentially a streamlined Optimus face (opposed to the streamlined Prowl face of G1). Additionally, Takara proably knew early on that the Combatrons would be a small sub-group, so it's not too terribly difficult to tell them apart from the Cybertrons. It's not like G1, where there were dozens of guys on each side who received little to no screentime and actively needed the faction symbols just to clue people in to what side they were on.

The Combatron symbol was also consistently black, and I don't believe a single Cybertron in the CR line had a black G1 symbol. Really, there are plenty of ways to tell them apart.

I'm sure it was a matter of they were given the opportunity to have them use a different faction logo and went with it. But wanted to make it different then the pre-established use of said symbol so they inverted it as a way of distinguishing it.

But the pre-established use is largely negligible and irrelevant, and again, the target audience likely wouldn't know or care that it had been used before. At the time, CR wasn't even in the Takara G1 continuity family, so prior use of the G2 symbol really means nothing (and is likely still the case). Added to how unlikely it was that the G2 symbol would ever be used again (and now, how unlikely it would be to see either G2 symbol or the Combatron symbol)... it's just not holding up for me.

Your reasoning is more or less the official line. I just find it unsatisfactory when the fridge logic kicks in, and I'm assuming there must be more. Maybe there isn't, and it's just as arbitrary as it sounds.

[Powered Convoy]

It basically boils down to Black Convoy had that symbol molded into his discs, Takara didn't want to remove the detail (likely for cost reasons).

They exploited the symbol to define their sub group of Destrons from the others. They inverted the symbol. There could be any number of reasons they did this, as Takara does do a lot of things that to us might not make sense or seem pointless. Sure G2 was years ago and the Autobot symbol has had little bearing since, but it still existed as an Autobot symbol, and to Takara that probably meant no matter what it wasn't going to be used the same way for the Destrons.

I'm sure to them it was just a way to separate that group of Destrons from the others, and to make use of Black Convoy's molded detail.

Randy

[Professor]

But the pre-established use is largely negligible and irrelevant, and again, the target audience likely wouldn't know or care that it had been used before.

Why does this make it inappropriate?

Either the audience gets the reference, in which case the faction symbol works fine; or, the audience doesn't get the reference, in which case the symbol is as meaningless as any other faction symbol, and therefore still works fine.

And the middle of the road is that it's a black, upside-down Convoy face. The leader of the faction is a black, twisted Convoy. If the symbol is recognizably Convoy, then it works on that basis alone.

[Stungun]

It looks evil uspide-down because it looks like Darth Vader's helmet. That is all.

[Destron D-69]

Because its awesome.

[MintBerryCrunch]

Makes sense since they were Autobot protoforms.

[Lukeblast]

But the pre-established use is largely negligible and irrelevant, and again, the target audience likely wouldn't know or care that it had been used before.

Why does this make it inappropriate?

It's not about what's "inappropriate" or what isn't. That's the sort of "they should have done it another way" territory that I'm trying to avoid. What I'm attempting to reason out is, given the possible options, why they went the route they did. Why was it necessary to change the symbol, given that such need didn't exist in the line itself?

Sure G2 was years ago and the Autobot symbol has had little bearing since, but it still existed as an Autobot symbol, and to Takara that probably meant no matter what it wasn't going to be used the same way for the Destrons.

And that's the likely answer, as unsatisfying as I find it. Takara has always been very directly involved in the fiction and mythology (although they've come up with crazy explanations for all kinds of things before, and I don't see this as different than most of them). Given the grand-scale repurposing that goes on today, they might not bother if CR were made now.

Again, I'm likely thinking too hard, finding a problem where none exists. I think "it was this way before, that means it always has to be this way, so we need to change it" is terrible reasoning, but it's likely that it was the basic train of thought. Just wish there was some better justification (or at least, a more interesting story).

Makes sense since they were Autobot protoforms.

It makes sense that they'd use an inversion of a symbol that doesn't represent the Autobots (or anything else, for that matter) in that continuity?

That's half my point right there. In the CR property itself, the REGULAR version of the symbol has no meaning. Again, this is before Takara integrated CR into the G1 family, so there wasn't any conflict with G2. The inversion of the symbol then doesn't really stand for the opposite at all. The only way the inverted symbol makes sense for the Combatrons is if there were Autobots running around using it, which there simply weren't.

Now, with that integration (and the G1 references in RiD), an easy fanon explanation would be to say that Gigatron/Megatron, being from the future, chose and warped a future symbol of the Autobots when he programmed the Combatrons, making a twisted joke they wouldn't get for years. Given his penchant for bragging, it doesn't totally work, but it's acceptable.

Sorry if it seems like I'm harping on something meaningless here. I'll admit that this is largely a nit-picky thing, and that the most obvious answer is most likely the correct (and only) one, but I thought it might make for fun discussion.

This post has been edited by Lukeblast: Jul 21 2009, 02:04 PM

[Yanthrax]

I think as has been stated, they simply used it bacause it was molded on Black Convoy, so they just flipped it upside down because it was similar enough to the Autobot symbol. I don't think there's anything more to it than that. They didn't do it for any sort of story driven purposes, or to have it represent anything.

[mignash]

But the pre-established use is largely negligible and irrelevant, and again, the target audience likely wouldn't know or care that it had been used before.

Why does this make it inappropriate?

Either the audience gets the reference, in which case the faction symbol works fine; or, the audience doesn't get the reference, in which case the symbol is as meaningless as any other faction symbol, and therefore still works fine.

I've often made that arguement when people say you can't make a reference to G1 because kids won't get it. If they don't get a reference to classic , then they are no better or worse than if was something completely new. So the thousands of young kids who watched Car Robots didn't know why the symbol looked that the G2 symbol, because they didn't know what G2 was. Didn't hurt.

I wonder if the fact that it looked like Scourge's face helped. Basically the Combatrions were wearing an upside down Scourge face in black.

I do like the idea of corrupted Autobot wearing inverted symbols. I wonder if someday will see a group of reformed Decepticons who wear upside down G2 Decepticon logos?

This post has been edited by mignash: Jul 21 2009, 04:15 PM

[Professor]

It makes sense that they'd use an inversion of a symbol that doesn't represent the Autobots (or anything else, for that matter) in that continuity?

essentially a streamlined Optimus face

it's a black, upside-down Convoy face. The leader of the faction is a black, twisted Convoy.

It's the personal symbol of their leader. It conveys his origins as a copy of Optimus Prime, while also showing that his allegiance is reversed. It's also black, the same colour (oddly enough) as Black Convoy.

Personally I think you're putting too much thought into this. Why shouldn't a black, evil copy of Convoy have as his symbol a black, upside-down picture of Convoy? Obviously the toy molding inspired the choice, but I really don't see any point where the symbol doesn't work just fine for Black Convoy, and therefore for his team. It certainly never seemed to bother the G2 Autobots to have a picture of their leader as a faction symbol.

(For that matter, it never bothered the G1 Autobots to have a picture of their second-in-command as a faction symbol. But really, that just demonstrates how little it matters what the symbol is.)

[▲ndrusi]

Did anyone consider that maybe the guy whose idea it was just didn't realize he was drawing the damned thing upside down?

[D Buster Prime]

Lukeblast, I think you answered your own question. The G2 mold was already there, and inverting characters is a known convention for twisting/corrupting what it stands for. Just take a look at Wario and Waluigi.

[shumworld]

yes it is?

[Lukeblast]

Lukeblast, I think you answered your own question. The G2 mold was already there, and inverting characters is a known convention for twisting/corrupting what it stands for. Just take a look at Wario and Waluigi.

Yeah, fair enough. I was just hoping that (since they had to use the symbol in some way) there was a more sensible reason for using it the way they did than "it was used for the good guys in another series (who have nothing to do with this series) a few years back". To me that's sort of a "big deal, so what" thing.

In-story, nothing was ever said, and I don't feel the various fanon explanations fully cover it. I figured there might be more to the story. Apparently not. Ah well.

[Dvandom]

It looks evil uspide-down because it looks like Darth Vader's helmet. That is all.

This, yes. Try to not look at it as an upside-down Autobot symbol, but just take it as itself.

---Dave

[Transfotaku]

Seriously? I don't think it really bears any resemblance at all, being essentially a streamlined Optimus face (opposed to the streamlined Prowl face of G1).

Actually, the G2 Bot face looks a lot more like the face of Pyro/Spark, a European exclusive. Obliterator, just like Colossus/Clench. Who has the same face as the G2 Con face. The Obliterators were also the leaders of their faction that year.

Further, the Destrongers in CR were TIME TRAVELLERS. They could, in theory, have been in the G2 era at one point. Or A G2 era, at least.

Further, in the real world, many Satanists use the cross upside down as their symbol.

Further, I think you're just thinking too hard about it and trying to find reasons to hate the insignia. Short answer: Who cares? That's what they got! If you want a Black Convoy type toy without the insignia, I'll trade you my RiD Scourge for your CR Black Convoy. I get the insignia, you get insignia-less toy!